Skye- where do people get these ideas?? Seriously.
...and the people that believe it REALLY believe it. I'm not sure where this concept was born...
I personally don't have a problem with prayer before games, and I know that many teams will say a team prayer before kickoff during the playoffs.
To say these prayers are nondenominational because they don't use Jesus' name is bull. The person they are praying to is implied to be God.
Just nibble at your finger...You're MADE of rib.
Come to think of it...That's probably why women smell so good.
I suggest we talk about pie.
_____________
Bobby, just a thought...Using the Bible to argue with somebody that doesn't believe in what it says will work about as well as a lead balloon. Would you believe a Muslim if he quoted the Koran to you? Didn't think so. You want to use logic and reason.
OMG I love pie.
nom nom nom nom
About the topic at hand. Private, non-denom prayers are find at things like this. The only issue I see is when you start using God, Jesus, Buddha, or any other deity's name.
Right now this team needs more than a prayer though. The worst joke in the league right now, with fans that were touted as the best in the nation who are leaving after the half, etc.
Land of hypocrites.
>who are leaving after the half
Do bear in mind many of these fans were raised in the time honored Okie tradition of show up, cheer, ok, that's enough, let's get outta here and beat the traffic. Doesn't matter if the team is winning or getting drummed, that sense of winning at the beatin' dat traffic game is more than enough joy for many many folk. Sad, but not untrue.
With respect:
From the Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary, a.k.a. "Treaty Of Tripoli", ratified June 7, 1797, signed June 10, 1797:
Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
bolding mine
To a lesser extent:
From Amendment I of The Bill Of Rights:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...
I'm kinda sorry I just waded through all that; but, since I did, I might as well weigh in. As many have pointed out this isn't a First Amendment issue. When you're paying for the mic; then you can control the message. Its business as usual, and as it should be. But as person after person wrote to say the prayer was egregiously non-denominational so "why should anyone have a problem with it," I was repeatedly struck with the same thought; I really want a cheeseburger...wait, sorry...I did think that, but also...why do you need a prayer before a sporting event? I'm sure there are less appropriate places for coerced group prayer, but none come to mind. What is the purpose of a pregame prayer?
coerced? you mean people were forced to pray? did they kick out folks who didn't play along?Originally Posted by neodeity
i'm not completely against anyone who doesn't think that a prayer is appropriate before a public event... i can appreciate the fact that it makes some people uncomfortable... but nobody was coerced into praying.
-M
By performing a public, group prayer; people not of the faith that were praying were forced to observe, react/not react, and put up with something they may have found highly offensive.
You don't see anyone shooting a good luck freethrow before church service right there in front of the pulpit.
On top of that, you know very well that if a muslim got down on his knees with a carpet to pray to allah right before the game, there would be cries of complete outrage from the same people who conduct/approve of these prayers before each game.
"people not of the faith that were praying?" anyone not of the faith that were praying were doing so by choice. nobody was forced to pray. having to observe something that you may find offensive is not coercion to perform that act. maybe you don't understand what 'coercion' means, either.Originally Posted by fuzzytoad
this analogy is completely irrelevant. in this culture, there is a custom for 'praying' before athletic events. perhaps the custom is dying, but its vestiges still exist. there is no such custom for lucky freethrows at church services. bottom line is, if you go into a public event hosted by a private entity, you don't have the right to say what happens and doesn't happen... whether that action be a prayer at a basketball game or a lucky freethrow at a worship service.Originally Posted by fuzzytoad
actually, i doubt that there'd be much outrage... some, maybe. but again, it's irrelevant... there is no such custom.Originally Posted by fuzzytoad
-M
perhaps its you having the difficulty here.
Are Non-Christians given the opportunity to lead a public prayer alongside the Christian one? Are people given the opportunity to leave the building if they find the act of public Christian prayer offensive?
Is there any other means of avoiding this pre-game spectacle other than "Don't go if you don't like prayer"?
Which
leads to my second analogy, which you claim is irrelevant.
People go to Thunder games to watch basketball. People go to Church for religious reasons. How is that irrelevant?
either there is a custom or there isn't. in the same post you claim that there's a custom of prayer before games. Which is it?
nope. and why should they be? the basketball game is a private event. hypothetically speaking, i can't waltz into a meeting of atheist headquarters international and demand a christian prayer. i can't traipse into a basketball game of another team and demand a prayer if they don't have one.are non-christians given the opportunity to lead a public prayer alongside the christian one?
you bet they are. certainly you don't think they lock up the arena once the prayer starts.Originally Posted by fuzzytoad
it's not a custom in primarily muslim countries (or any other) to whip out a prayer mat before a game. it is an american custom (though arguably a dying one) to pray before sporting events. to say why don't we do "x" when it's not part of any customary behavior is pretty much irrelevant to the argument.Originally Posted by fuzzytoad
-M
Hi there!.
Ummm, when do they give you that chance to leave?
I'm asking because we took a client to a game. The prayer started and he immediately got upset to the point that we had to take him back to his hotel and apologize profusely.
He was from India and apparently thought we had shanghaid him into some sort of religious ceremony prior to an NBA game.
Needless to say, we won't be taking anymore clients to games.
the context of my remark was under 'coercion'... while it's possible that neither you nor your client had ample opportunity to 'get the heck out of dodge' before the prayer began, nobody was physically forced to stay. nobody was 'coerced' to pray.Originally Posted by jc4455
from what you've laid out, it seems more to me that your scenario is more of a product of cultural misunderstanding than anything. perhaps what you've stated is a good reason not to have a prayer at such an event... but it certainly isn't a good reason to prevent a group from doing so.
-M
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