New problems for OKC's National preception

[soonerguru]

Wow! The Five Reactionary Posters on this board have been busy defending Sally Kern this week. This must be very important to them. Could they be Republican politicians?

[dismayed]

But you know what? The behavior is abnormal. "I am born that way" is a cop out. Everyone makes decisions in their lives on how they act and make their own choices. I have ALWAYS had the choice on who I shared my bed with.

So just out of curiosity, if I were to ask you how many women you have slept with and whether you were married to all of them.... and I was then to ask you about your contribution to the moral decay of society, how would your statement be similar to or different from what you have voiced about the gay issue?

[dismayed]

How can someone say that people are born gay? Human anatomy is not designed for homosexual relations; it is designed for heterosexual relations. Being homosexual is more of an addiction than a way a person is born.

Also just out of curiosity... since we are in Oklahoma I will assume you have been around animals at least a time or two. Growing up around them, something that I noticed was that male dogs, or horses, or whatever, will often have sex with one another. What's your take on that?

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

I've been attracted to women since childhood. Hell, I never even went through a "Ewwwww...Girls have COOOTIES!" stage. I was stealing kisses on the playground by the first grade.

There was never a decision, there was never a debate or internal struggle on the matter either. I like women, always have. So who am I to say that it's any different for a gay man? The ONLY reason it's deemed "abnormal" is because your parents or a preacher told you so. Guess what? Your parents were wrong about a great many things, and we won't get into how many things the church has been dead wrong about over the course of their colorful history.

However...WHAT DOES IT MATTER? Who cares if it's something they decided to do? As far as I can tell, the only time being a gay person hurts anything is when people try and change them due to their own preconceived notions on what's right and wrong...And projection of morality never ends well. Neither does basing law on the bible in a country with a guarantee in it's constitution concerning the freedom of religion.

[okclee]

This entire topic really shows how uneducated Oklahoma really is. I would expect to find this mindset from Ms. Kern in the backwoods of Oklahoma but I am surprised it is thriving here in the metro.

Ms. Kern's homophobic mindset must eat at her each and every day and her heart seems to be filled with a hate for all things homosexuals. I actually feel sorry for her and the people that think like her.

[soonerguru]

okclee,

This is deliberate scapegoating, and it works especially well on uneducated people, many of whom are faithful churchgoers who are struggling economically. The message is, "Hey, the reason you lost your job is because of the Mexican immigrant or the gay guy, not because we eliminated your job and opened a new factory in China."

This scapegoating seems to grow in intensity the more incompetent our government becomes. There is not one single shred of rational evidence to indicate that gays are harming our society. By contrast, history is rife with examples of religious extremists causing harm to numerous societies.

Sally's angry rhetoric is really very similar in nature to the rhetoric of extremist Muslims, substituting "gays" for "infidels" or "The Great Satan." It is designed to fire up her ignorant followers and deflect from the failures of her party to effectively govern, all cloaked under the mantle of moral purity.

[Karried]

It is designed to fire up her ignorant followers

Mission accomplished.

Some of the comments on the news boards are so ridiculous, I can't even read them without cringing. I actually had to stop reading.. the bubbas of the world came out in full force spewing their hateful judgements on one hand and quoting the Bible on another.

It's actually pretty amazing, the amount of intolerance here in OK, considering it's supposed to be the Bible Belt.. it's so ironic to me.

Hatred cloaked in teachings from the ultimate book of love.

But one sad thing I have unfortunately learned from living here .... hypocrisy is pretty commonplace.

Honestly, if it weren't for this board, I probably would have moved a long time ago.

Thankfully, most of the members here are intelligent, tolerant and accepting. You are the ones that give me hope for OK.

[okclee]

Like I stated earlier, I really do feel sorry for these types of people (Ms. Kern and the like), not only for being uneducated but also for living in fear and being filled with hate.

[soonerguru]

Honestly, if it weren't for this board, I probably would have moved a long time ago.

No need to leave, Kari. There are more of us than there are of them, they're just a lot bigger loudmouths. OKC is actually quite progressive, certainly compared to the rest of the state (and even Tulsa). Only Norman is as progressive as OKC is all told.

Most of the gaybashers and Christian Taliban have not lived or even visited elsewhere. They don't get the point of this site, which is to see the continued forward, progressive momentum of our city. Their viewpoints are antithetical to that pursuit.

As you know, having come here from somewhere else, their viewpoints are very offputting to people (and companies) who are not from Oklahoma. Yet, they wear their views like a badge of honor. "Who cares what someone from California thinks about OKC," they say.

Then, they claim to want to see our economy grow, but cannot understand the connection to their primitive views and companies choosing to bypass OKC for other markets.

There is a connection. Texas nearly lost an Apple Computer location because of a small-town's obsessive anti-gay views. That a significant part of Apple's human resources are gay was lost on the bigots.

I have seen this city change remarkably in the last ten years. The Sally Kern's of the world are now viewed as freaks, not mainstream thinkers.

[bkm645]

Wow! The Five Reactionary Posters on this board have been busy defending Sally Kern this week. This must be very important to them. Could they be Republican politicians?

I can tell you that I am not a politian, I am a sophomore at UCO and have part time job as a court house runner.

Also just out of curiosity... since we are in Oklahoma I will assume you have been around animals at least a time or two. Growing up around them, something that I noticed was that male dogs, or horses, or whatever, will often have sex with one another. What's your take on that?

I have never personally seen that, but I will take your word for that. There is a difference been man and animals. Animals have no souls (sorry kids, all dogs dont' go to heaven), but man was created in the image of God and has a soul. Man can distingush between right and wrong. A dog only knows what they have been tought.

This entire topic really shows how uneducated Oklahoma really is. I would expect to find this mindset from Ms. Kern in the backwoods of Oklahoma but I am surprised it is thriving here in the metro.

Ms. Kern's homophobic mindset must eat at her each and every day and her heart seems to be filled with a hate for all things homosexuals. I actually feel sorry for her and the people that think like her.

Kern is not an uneducated woman she has a degree in Sociology from UT. Many think that all Christians are uneducated, well many are, but the new emerging church does not help society's view of Christians.

Kern does not hate the homosexuals, only their actions. She says that the gay AGENDA is destroying the nation, not the gays themselves.

Mission accomplished.

Some of the comments on the news boards are so ridiculous, I can't even read them without cringing. I actually had to stop reading.. the bubbas of the world came out in full force spewing their hateful judgements on one hand and quoting the Bible on another.

It's actually pretty amazing, the amount of intolerance here in OK, considering it's supposed to be the Bible Belt.. it's so ironic to me.

Hatred cloaked in teachings from the ultimate book of love.

But one sad thing I have unfortunately learned from living here .... hypocrisy is pretty commonplace.

Honestly, if it weren't for this board, I probably would have moved a long time ago.

Thankfully, most of the members here are intelligent, tolerant and accepting. You are the ones that give me hope for OK.

You belive that Kern and I are intolerant? What is your definition of tolerant? I am going to guess that it goes something like this: "all views are equal and none should be better than another." Correct me if I am wrong, but I am pretty sure that is close. I make the statement: "the gay lifestyle is sinful and that the gay agenda could destroy this nation." You say that I am being intolerant by saying that the gay lifestyle is wrong. But, my view is that the gay lifestyle is wrong, and therefore by making the statement that I am intolerant, you are being intolerant. By saying that my view is not as equal as your view.

I call that a logical fallacy, therefore your statement that I am intolerant is void.

I am not tolerant by your view of tolerance. I am tolerant in that I am civil, I am not going to say we should round up all homosexuals and have a big bonfire. I am enduring your view, but I do not agree with your view.

[soonerguru]

She says that the gay AGENDA is destroying the nation, not the gays themselves.

That's a shallow reading of the content of her message. She equates the gay "AGENDA" (your emphasis) with terrorism. That is not a hate the sin, love the sinner type of comment.

Perhaps she is educated, but she isn't very smart to make such an ill-informed, inflammatory comment that even the Daily Oklahoman has decried.

[soonerguru]

Speaking of logical fallacies, can you give one rational explanation for how gays are destroying this nation? Just one.

[Karried]

Some of the comments on the news boards are so ridiculous, I can't even read them without cringing.

You belive that Kern and I are intolerant? What is your definition of tolerant?

I don't believe anything about you... I wasn't even referring to you or your comments. I was referring to NewsOK comments.

But I'm not intolerant of someone having a different thought process than mine..

I'm intolerant of a hypocrite like Sally Kern calling gay people a threat, worse than terrorists.

And I don't publicly profess to be a Christian and then spout off hateful comments all the while blabbing away about ancient laws in a book written 3500 ago and touched by human hands countless times ..... the hyprocrisy just kills me.

Words can hurt, especially when words can turn to action as in hate speech can equal hate crimes.

[bkm645]

That's a shallow reading of the content of her message. She equates the gay "AGENDA" (your emphasis) with terrorism. That is not a hate the sin, love the sinner type of comment.

Perhaps she is educated, but she isn't very smart to make such an ill-informed, inflammatory comment that even the Daily Oklahoman has decried.

I would not call that a shallow interperation of her comments. I just relistended to the entire thing on YouTube and she was talking about the gay agenda.

Speaking of logical fallacies, can you give one rational explanation for how gays are destroying this nation? Just one.

I belive I already have, but I will say it again. The most basic form of government is found in the home, with a family, homosexuals are not a family. When we start recognizing homosexuals as families then the most basic form of government is gone. When you tear down the foundation the whole building will fall.

If people want to live with one another that's their problem. But it should not be endorsed by society.

[bkm645]

I'm intolerant of a hypocrite like Sally Kern calling gay people a threat, worse than terrorists.

People or agenda? I never heard her make statements about people, only about the agenda. She introduced the topic by taking about the gay agenda.

And I don't publicly profess to be a Christian and then spout off hateful comments all the while blabbing away about ancient laws in a book written 3500 ago and touched by human hands countless times ..... the hyprocrisy just kills me.

How has the Bible been touched by human hands countless times? There has been new translaitons, but the meaning is still the same. Some Bibles are not as accurate, but we can still go and look at the Greek and Hebrew text.

Words can hurt, especially when words can turn to action as in hate speech can equal hate crimes.

When did she say to commit crimes? If people commit crimes based on her words then they do not follow the same agenda as she does. I know she would say that we should not commit crimes against homosexuals.

[soonerguru]

I never heard her make statements about people, only about the agenda.

Wrong again. You're ignoring her comments that equate gays with terrorists. Keep trying.

FWIW, are you without sin? Is Sally Kern?

The irony of your comments about family is astonishing. Half of all marriages -- including fundies like yourself -- end in divorce. How is that the fault of gays? Wouldn't that be more fertile ground for you and Sally to get all worked up into a lather?

Heterosexual marriage is in trouble considering how many of them fail. What are you and Sally doing about that? This "government" that you speak of is in serious trouble, and gays have nothing to do with it.

By the way, what about all the Christian leaders who are in the closet? What about them? There is rank hypocrisy in fundamentalist Christianity, but I'm sure it's all the gays' fault in your eyes.

What about all of the domestic abuse in our families? What about all of the sexual abuse in our families. Your vision of family is very limited, yet you ignore all of the problems with families in our culture.

My gay neighbors are the nicest people on my block, and I would go to the mat to defend them from extremists like you.

And furthermore, if you don't believe dehumanizing people with words leads to violence, you aren't paying attention. You obviously don't know anyone in law enforcement who deals with gay bashing and other hate crimes all of the time. Knuckledraggers hear things like dear old Christian Sally says and think it gives them license to physically assault people. Why not, she said they're as bad as terrorists, and terrorists kill people, so.....

Finally, do you have any progressive values? Do you believe in equal protection under the law? The Bill of Rights? What is your vision for our city? Would progress in your mind consist of a church on every corner? Pardon me if I don't see what you get about visiting this board, which is by nature a board dedicated to progress and positive change for our city.

Wouldn't you be more at home on a Christian fundamentalist board? No offense, just curious.

[Oh GAWD the Smell!]

I belive I already have, but I will say it again. The most basic form of government is found in the home, with a family, homosexuals are not a family. When we start recognizing homosexuals as families then the most basic form of government is gone. When you tear down the foundation the whole building will fall.

If people want to live with one another that's their problem. But it should not be endorsed by society.

As a member of society, a free society...Don't you DARE tell me what to endorse. I mean really. Kiss my grits on that one. Especially if you're using a book that IS NOT LAW as your argument hammer. It's only that book that tells you that homosexuals are not a family. If it weren't for that book, you'd be a blathering bigot by "society" at large instead of just the relative few of us loudmouths that will throw it back in your face for what it is. Bigotry. The LAW in this land says freedom of religion. This means I don't have to follow the bible to stay within my right of the pursuit of happiness.

Screw tolerance. Seriously. When people like you want to keep law abiding members of society from having any rights simply because of a religion that I don't have to abide by according to federal law...yeah, I'm going to get downright intolerant. Because the next things you'll go after in the name of "family" are my rights to bump uglies outside of wedlock, "let" my woman go in public without her head covered, or wear a cotton shirt with gabardine trousers.

By the way, splitting hairs, parsing text, and reciting quotes without the context of the original statement when trying to bring your point across is a sign of a weak, weak argument.

FAIL.

[dismayed]

I have never personally seen that, but I will take your word for that. There is a difference been man and animals. Animals have no souls (sorry kids, all dogs dont' go to heaven), but man was created in the image of God and has a soul. Man can distingush between right and wrong. A dog only knows what they have been tought.

Since your original argument was of a biological nature, basically that "the parts don't fit," I guess you are now agreeing that this line of argument is not a valid one? Just so that I am clear, you are shifting your views from one of a biological/naturist view, in which man and animal are the same and part of a natural biological set of forces that dictate what is 'natural', to one where man and animal are completely different and the onus is on the thinking human to overcome their natural urges. Did I summarize that correctly?

I'm just trying to figure out if you have a rationalization for all of this, or if you have a viewpoint and are struggling to find a rationalization that fits it....

[bkm645]

Wrong again. You're ignoring her comments that equate gays with terrorists. Keep trying.

As I said before she is talking about the agenda, not the person.

FWIW, are you without sin? Is Sally Kern?

No, it is a doctrine called total depravity. All men have fallen and come short of the Glory of God. Did Kern or I ever say we have never sinned? I can be a mean dictator, just ask my newspaper class from high school. But how does the affect this argument?

The irony of your comments about family is astonishing. Half of all marriages -- including fundies like yourself -- end in divorce. How is that the fault of gays? Wouldn't that be more fertile ground for you and Sally to get all worked up into a lather?

Did I blame divorces on gays? I know that there are lots of divorces, I spend much of my day at the Oklahoma County Court Clerks SC/CS/FD counter, I know how bad the divorce problem is now. The attitue of people when they file in their divoces is disgusting. There are lots of problems in this nation and we can't let the gay agenda be another problem.

By the way, what about all the Christian leaders who are in the closet? What about them? There is rank hypocrisy in fundamentalist Christianity, but I'm sure it's all the gays' fault in your eyes.

I know there is hypocricy in the chruch, I have seen it all my life. What they do is wrong, but the only thing I can defintly change is what I do. The problems in the church are caused by the church members and the influnce of the world getting to them.

What about all of the domestic abuse in our families? What about all of the sexual abuse in our families. Your vision of family is very limited, yet you ignore all of the problems with families in our culture.

As I said before I know there are problems. Man will sin, again that is the doctrine of total depravity.

My gay neighbors are the nicest people on my block, and I would go to the mat to defend them from extremists like you.

I know gay people, I have lived near gay people, and I am even related to a gay man. They are nice people to know, but what they do is wrong. I have never threatend to kill them, nor will I ever do such a thing.

And furthermore, if you don't believe dehumanizing people with words leads to violence, you aren't paying attention. You obviously don't know anyone in law enforcement who deals with gay bashing and other hate crimes all of the time. Knuckledraggers hear things like dear old Christian Sally says and think it gives them license to physically assault people. Why not, she said they're as bad as terrorists, and terrorists kill people, so.....

If someone commits a crime then they should be prosecuted for their crimes. Kern was only speaking against their acitons, not the people. If someone misinterprest her words, she cannot be held responsible.

Finally, do you have any progressive values? Do you believe in equal protection under the law? The Bill of Rights? What is your vision for our city? Would progress in your mind consist of a church on every corner? Pardon me if I don't see what you get about visiting this board, which is by nature a board dedicated to progress and positive change for our city.

Well the word progressive is very broad. I do not agree with Teddy Roosevelt's progressive ideas or anything like his progress ideas. I 100% support the Bill of Rights, it is just to bad that some of them have been silently over turned. I belive in moving this city forward. It is like what was discussed this morning on Flash Point, city politics should be partisan. I voted yes on March 4th, I would have voted yes for MAPS if I would have been old enough. I think that it is great to see what this city is doing. I have lived here all my life and I have been downtown all my life. This city is going in the right direction except for some social issues. I do not call letting society accpet homosexual marriage as progress, it is a backwards step.

Wouldn't you be more at home on a Christian fundamentalist board? No offense, just curious.

I make my way around the web sometimes. I am around people all day long that are not like minded, but we still get along. I am here because I love to see the progress in this city.

[bkm645]

As a member of society, a free society...Don't you DARE tell me what to endorse. I mean really. Kiss my grits on that one. Especially if you're using a book that IS NOT LAW as your argument hammer. It's only that book that tells you that homosexuals are not a family. If it weren't for that book, you'd be a blathering bigot by "society" at large instead of just the relative few of us loudmouths that will throw it back in your face for what it is. Bigotry. The LAW in this land says freedom of religion. This means I don't have to follow the bible to stay within my right of the pursuit of happiness.

Screw tolerance. Seriously. When people like you want to keep law abiding members of society from having any rights simply because of a religion that I don't have to abide by according to federal law...yeah, I'm going to get downright intolerant. Because the next things you'll go after in the name of "family" are my rights to bump uglies outside of wedlock, "let" my woman go in public without her head covered, or wear a cotton shirt with gabardine trousers.

By the way, splitting hairs, parsing text, and reciting quotes without the context of the original statement when trying to bring your point across is a sign of a weak, weak argument.

FAIL.

When did I say that gays have no rights? They have equal rights as members of this society. They simply do not have a right to married to one another.

And when did I use a quote out of context? None of my arguments are illogical.

Since your original argument was of a biological nature, basically that "the parts don't fit," I guess you are now agreeing that this line of argument is not a valid one? Just so that I am clear, you are shifting your views from one of a biological/naturist view, in which man and animal are the same and part of a natural biological set of forces that dictate what is 'natural', to one where man and animal are completely different and the onus is on the thinking human to overcome their natural urges. Did I summarize that correctly?

I'm just trying to figure out if you have a rationalization for all of this, or if you have a viewpoint and are struggling to find a rationalization that fits it....

Actually you are going off course because you are changing the subject from humans to animals. I simply gave you an explanation of the fundamental difference between human and animals.
I have a rationalization that fits my views perfectly, if I did not I would not be posting. If I had no rational explanation I would not be posting as I would making a fool of myself logically.

[dismayed]

Actually you are going off course because you are changing the subject from humans to animals. I simply gave you an explanation of the fundamental difference between human and animals.
I have a rationalization that fits my views perfectly, if I did not I would not be posting. If I had no rational explanation I would not be posting as I would making a fool of myself logically.

You said:

How can someone say that people are born gay? Human anatomy is not designed for homosexual relations; it is designed for heterosexual relations.

You brought anatomy into the argument and our biological design as a basis for your rationalization. I merely pointed out that this is in fact the case with the rest of the animal kingdom as well, which is where scientists look when comparing our anatomy and how it is designed, and that homosexual behavior has been observed in animals (which also were not designed for homosexual relations). When I pointed that out you dropped your argument in favor of the 'we are more than animals' argument. So I didn't change the argument, I just showed you that your original statement wasn't entirely logical when you compare what you said to the rest of the animal kingdom, and instead of defending that argument you switched the argument from one of anatomy to one of higher brain function and reasoning.

But since we are having such an interesting conversation here, I will ask you the same things that I asked in another thread....

Right now, today, it is perfectly fine and legal for two non-Christians or even atheists to get married. How is that any different philosophically from gay marriage, or is it?

Why should the government even care about who is having sex with whom?

Do you support a return to the old 'blue laws' of yesteryear that would make pre-marital sex, adultery, etc. a crime?

Has the number of sexual partners you have had in your lifetime negatively influenced society? Is that even a concern? How is this question similar or different at its core from the questions that Sally is bringing up?

Do you think the war in Iraq is more or less important than modifying the Constitution to ban gay marriage? What about nuclear proliferation in Iran and other places? Is it more or less important than preventing terrorism around the globe and here at home? If you had the power of the Congressional checkbook at your fingertips and you were given the chance to divert significant funding from any of the above issues and instead fund a campaign to ban gay marriage, and the result meant that a US city would be destroyed but you would in fact get the gay marriage ban approved, would you do it?

[Karried]

I belive I already have, but I will say it again. The most basic form of government is found in the home, with a family, homosexuals are not a family.

See, things like this coming out of someone's mouth especially a Christian's is just so disturbing to me.

Just think of all the gay people who in loving family units who might read these hurtful words.

I think it is so presumptious of people to dictate what a 'family ' is or isn't.

When my mom got the courage to leave an abusive marriage and became a single mom, the church ladies ostrasized her and pretty much threw her to the curb because we no longer fit their image of a perfect family ( and probably because they were worried about their Christian husbands hitting on a single woman) ....

What do you say to Grandparents raising their grandchildren.. you're not a family? How about stepfamilies? Single dads? Not a family?

why? Because it doesn't fit the idea of a mom, dad, two kids and a dog?

A family is a family if your heart tells you it is.

You don't have the right to say it's not.

[solitude]

See, things like this coming out of someone's mouth especially a Christian's is just so disturbing to me.

Just think of all the gay people who in loving family units who might read these hurtful words.

I think it is so presumptious of people to dictate what a 'family ' is or isn't.

When my mom got the courage to leave an abusive marriage and became a single mom, the church ladies ostrasized her and pretty much threw her to the curb because we no longer fit their image of a perfect family ( and probably because they were worried about their Christian husbands hitting on a single woman) ....

I agree with all you wrote, Karrie. My wife and I were discussing some bigotry we heard the other day and I told her my thinking on this and she said she had never heard this before - so I'll say it here and see what happens. I originally posted this in the Sally Kern thread. As strange as I guess this may sound, I honestly believe that it's clearly genetic and is part of the vast ecosystem of life that allows for human population control. A fascinating part of human evolution, if you will. Meaning --- it's in the genes.That doesn't mean someone with the gene will become gay, but the predisposition is there - just like with many other genetic traits. Maybe that's crazy - maybe it's not; but I know we must get past the hate.

[metro]

Another problem with our national perception is that most think we can't spell or use grammar properly. The title of this thread should be perception not preception.

[onthestrip]

As strange as I guess this may sound, I honestly believe that [B]it's clearly genetic and is part of the vast ecosystem of life that allows for human population control. A fascinating part of human evolution, if you will.

Solitude, I dont think its that far-fetched of an idea. Not that I believe it to be fact, but I have had the same thoughts before. I do believe there are natural population controls (disease, disasters) and this could be another, just a much more complicated one.