Western Avenue District

[Just the facts]

Rover - I live in Jacksonville, FL. The largest city I have lived in is Tampa (I lived in Atlanta 4 days a week for 3 years but since I was hardly every there on weekends it doesn't count). Your question illustrates a common misconception though. I constantly hear the words urban and largest used interchangeably. I can only guess that is because most people associate walkability with places like New York and Chicago. To me it is not the size of the town, it is the neighborhood.

From my driveway to the entrance of my subdivision is right at 1/2 mile. There is nothing between me and the entrance except more houses. Our subdivision has 400 homes, at 4 people per home totals 1,600 people. We don't have a book store, restaurant, Starbucks, grocery store, doctor office, or anything. To get those items I have to go at least 3 miles. 25 years ago I lived in Healdton, OK with a population of 1,500 people. I could easily walk to every restaurant in town, the school, the football stadium, the grocery store, the ice cream store, the five and dime (as my mom called it), the post office, the doctor’s office, and Healdton's lone cultural attraction - the Oil Field Museum.

Now you tell me which is more urban - my little corner of Jacksonville, FL or Healdton, OK.

For the record, the most urban town I have lived in is Chico, CA. Every amenity of any large city and you can get to 90% of it using nothing more than a bike.

[betts]

My son lives in the Springfield neighborhood in Jacksonville, and it is very walkable. Whenever I go visit, we do the majority of our dining in restaurants within the neighborhood. He's very into supporting the area, and I see a lot of potential there. Despite the significant real estate bust in Florida, there are still houses being renovated, albeit at a far slower pace than when he purchased, and at a significantly lower price.

[Rover]

Facts. Thanks for the info. It helps me understand where you are coming from. Just curious though, why do you choose to live in the suburbs when you loathe them so badly? I know each of those cities has some pretty good urban areas.

[Just the facts]

I moved to the suburbs because that is what I thought I was supposed to do. Get married, buy a house in a subdivision, have kids, move to a culdesac, and then spend the rest of my life driving everywhere I want to go. This is the last subdivision I will ever live in. I don't choose to live it one now - I am trapped here.

[Rover]

Guess I am spoiled. I live in a nice suburban neighborhood here but have an apartment in New York City. I love both and at times don't love either one. LOL.

[Just the facts]

We live in a very nice subdivision as well and it is only 2.5 miles from world class shopping. But that 2.5 miles takes 15 minutes because of traffic and a lot of the people have serious road rage issues.

[kevinpate]

I moved to the suburbs because that is what I thought I was supposed to do. Get married, buy a house in a subdivision, have kids, move to a culdesac, and then spend the rest of my life driving everywhere I want to go. This is the last subdivision I will ever live in. I don't choose to live it one now - I am trapped here.

Freedom is a mere 1/2 mile away. Just don't look back. Oh, and use the car. If you use the bike, you might get tempted to turn around more easily. Sure it's going to be a costly escape, but lots of things worth doing carry a steep price. Maybe this one is yours. Certainly not for me to say, but you're clearly not happy where you are.

[metro]

We live in a very nice subdivision as well and it is only 2.5 miles from world class shopping. But that 2.5 miles takes 15 minutes because of traffic and a lot of the people have serious road rage issues.

Why don't you sell and break even, you sound like you've done well financially otherwise.

[Just the facts]

Why don't you sell and break even, you sound like you've done well financially otherwise.

That is actually the plan. I am in the process of doing some remodel work so as soon as I am done the house is going on the market for exactly what we owe. If I can walk away even I will be happy. We aren't underwater but we have a lot of foreclosures around us. The wife and I are still debating on where to move to. I want to live in one of the neighborhoods around downtown OKC but she wants to live near downtown Norman.

The only thing that has really been keeping us here is the kids getting their black belts. They have been working on it for nearly 4 years and we don't want to stop when we are less than 4 months away of them completing it. I am going to show the little lady some of the areas around downtown in hopes of persuading her. She worked downtown in the late 80's at Liberty so she has always been afraid of living down there. I guess downtown wasn't great back then.

[Spartan]

Downtown Norman is becoming a very cool place to live.

[BG918]

That is actually the plan. I am in the process of doing some remodel work so as soon as I am done the house is going on the market for exactly what we owe. If I can walk away even I will be happy. We aren't underwater but we have a lot of foreclosures around us. The wife and I are still debating on where to move to. I want to live in one of the neighborhoods around downtown OKC but she wants to live near downtown Norman.

The only thing that has really been keeping us here is the kids getting their black belts. They have been working on it for nearly 4 years and we don't want to stop when we are less than 4 months away of them completing it. I am going to show the little lady some of the areas around downtown in hopes of persuading her. She worked downtown in the late 80's at Liberty so she has always been afraid of living down there. I guess downtown wasn't great back then.

Eventually downtown Norman will be connected to downtown OKC via commuter rail. You could live in Norman and get to OKC in half an hour on the train.

[Just the facts]

Eventually downtown Norman will be connected to downtown OKC via commuter rail. You could live in Norman and get to OKC in half an hour on the train.

The older I get the less thrilled I am about 'eventually'. I would like to see Norman implement a local streetcar system, hopefully before commuter rail arrives.

[bluedogok]

In a few weeks I will start riding the rail to work, from Aurora to LoDo saving the mileage on my car from commuting into Downtown Denver. I will be so glad to get rid of the 40 mile round trip I currently have in Austin.

[Just the facts]

In a few weeks I will start riding the rail to work, from Aurora to LoDo saving the mileage on my car from commuting into Downtown Denver. I will be so glad to get rid of the 40 mile round trip I currently have in Austin.

I guess that means your trip to Denver was successful.

[bluedogok]

I guess that means your trip to Denver was successful.

Yes it was, the firm that I am going to work for is owned by a husband and wife team who are OU alums, he grew up in MWC and she in Tulsa. Her brother works there now and was at Benham in the Northwest Arkansas office a few years back (after I left the OKC office). I am staying in my friends condo in Aurora while he heads down to the South Pole until February, so everything just kind of fell in place for this. Hopefully we get the house here in Austin sold pretty quickly.

[MidCenturyModOKC]

Modern zoning divides activities up. Housing goes over there, retail goes over here, commercial goes down there. And then it gets subdivided from there again. Housing less than 5 units per acre goes in that section, and more than 20 units per acres go in another section. It requires people to have to travel when their activity changes. If you want to eat dinner you have to leave the residential area and go the commercial district. If you want to buy something you have to go to a retail district. And heaven forbid you want to get a beer; you have to drive all over the place to get one of those. Plus, zoning is usually 2 dimensional even though we live in a 3D world. This creates nothing but single use one story buildings because for the most part, multi-use isn't allowed by default.

There should be 3 zones; rural, industrial, everything else. Of course, people will argue that a bar will exist next to a school or a strip club might infringe on a residential neighborhood. I say, let the consumers make that decision. If left to their own will, business will go where their customers are. It is because of segregated zoning that customers now have to go to where the business are; which is how we ended up with 6 lanes roads and 20 acre parking lots.

Each of these little commercial clusters should become the downtown for each neighborhood. Community banks, local diners, law office, insurance office, local clothiers, drug stores, groceries, etc... There shouldn't be a need to drive all over the place for these things, but segregated zoning requires it. Zoning isn't just land use, it also controls how many parking space you have to have, how big the parking spaces need to be, and how much landscaping is required. A bar should be able to exist in this section of Western and narry a parking spot should be required (in fact, we would probably be better off if there was no parking - make the drunks walk home).

Here is a link to all the zoning districts in OKC and what is allowed in each one.

http://gis.okc.gov/netapps/OnlineZon...efinitions.pdf

You can access a zoning map here (just select the zoning option at the top of the map and then zoom in):
http://okcedis.com/

Incidently - this section of Western is zone C-4:


What this section of Western really needs is high density housing and professional services built on top of retail and resturants, but we are too busy worrying about where cars will park to do that.

You are spot on! I completely agree: Since when is it a bad thing to live and work in the same part of the city or even building!

[Rover]

Houston is the only major city in the US that has no zoning laws. Zoning is practiced in virtually every developed country in the world...but in 3rd world countries not so much. Having no laws for anything sounds ideal but it generally destroys as much as it allows.

[adaniel]

Houston is the only major city in the US that has no zoning laws. Zoning is practiced in virtually every developed country in the world...but in 3rd world countries not so much. Having no laws for anything sounds ideal but it generally destroys as much as it allows.

Thats only half true. Houston has no formal city governed zoning code but they do have deed restrictions and covenants built into their residential and even some commercial areas. They also have ruthless HOA's and POA's that enforce these rules.

But I generally agree with your statement.

[MidCenturyModOKC]

The Western Shopping District reminds me a bit of a smaller version of Brookside in Tulsa- I lived in Tulsa due to work for a few years while and I LOVED Brookside! Western needs a streetscape (consistent wide sidewalks, great landscaping and some sort of signage/lighting scheme).

I would like to see the residences on the west side of Western become a desirable area! There's a ton of potential in that area! One of the coolest parts of Brookside is to walk in the neighborhoods around it. There is a number of new homes and beautiful renovations in the area!

Crown Heights is already fantastic but also out of young professionals price range. Maybe the west side of Western can fill that entry level need $125,000-250,000 homes would be perfect!

[BG918]

The west side of Western is becoming more popular but there are still plenty of rundown houses that need to be rehabbed. It's actually really similar to Brookside where the west side of Peoria has smaller houses and more rentals while the east side is expensive homes with the few remaining small/rundown ones getting scraped and new houses built. I agree a consistent streetscape along Western would do wonders.

[onthestrip]

Whats actually on western doesn't compare to what brookside has to offer. Western has a long ways to go and is very spread out.

[dankrutka]

Whats actually on western doesn't compare to what brookside has to offer. Western has a long ways to go and is very spread out.

That's true, but Western has potential and Brookside is a perfect example for Western to aspire to...

[MidCenturyModOKC]

I couldn't agree with you more Kilgore Trout. I am not familiar with the structure or existence of a Western District Association (although I know that they have one) but I do hope that they are active and use Brookside as inspiration of how great they can become. Personally I would LOVE to have Brookside in OKC! Its one of the only things that Tulsa has that is hands down better!

[MidCenturyModOKC]

Question for those who are more familiar with OKC than I am: Does the area between Western and Classen, NW 36th and NW 50th have a nick name or area identity? Is this a good area, how is the crime, etc...

This is an area that I am not too familiar with but holds a great deal of interest for me. I like the location because it is so close to Western, Great access to the highways, Lots of untouched bungalows and you can still find steals!

With a new identity this area could be an exciting urban residential option for young professionals who cannot afford Crown Heights or Edgemere but want to enjoy Western shopping and restaurants and be a part of that community.

Thanks for any info about this area!

[mcca7596]

Question for those who are more familiar with OKC than I am: Does the area between Western and Classen, NW 36th and NW 50th have a nick name or area identity? Is this a good area, how is the crime, etc...

That area is referred to as Helm Historical District south of 39th and Helm Farm north of 39th. This is a great breakdown of all inner-city northside neighborhoods done by Spartan on his blog a little over a year ago: http://downtownontherange.blogspot.c...hborhoods.html According to him, Helm Historical district is a very solid neighborhood but Helm Farm is a little rough, not dangerous though (in fact he has it right in the middle in his rating system).