The Decline of Detroit - How To Prevent in OKC?

[Just the facts]

JTF, are you kidding us? This is a pure investment. If it never works then no one has ever benefitted from investing their money. Just because it is government money doesn't change.the concept of investment. I think thats where your real rub is. You just dont think this is a valid function of government. Do I want government in the business of investment at all levels? No! Ive seen many community industrial authorities make investments that were clearly done by people who had no idea what they were doing.

As for GM, we might still have the plant if the city hadn't been forced to renig on property tax abatements. As it is,, the current arrangement is working out well. This was a well conceived investment that has clearly been beneficial.

Maybe it is because we are looking at it on two different levels. In your world the left hand is eating the right hand and as a member of the left hand you are saying Yippe, better that we eat the right hand instead of it eating us (this is the whole 'would you rather have these jobs in another state' mentality). I am looking at it from the whole body perspective and saying holy crap, my left hand is eating my right hand - that can't be good. For the federal government to spend any money it first has to take that money out of the economy. It is impossible to fill a half-full bathtub only using water that is already INSIDE the tub.

[bluedogok]

I've never been to Detroit, but have seen quite a bit about it. Not sure how sprawled it is though, but surely it can't be worse than Atlanta, Houston, Jacksonville, OKC, or any other sprawled out cities.

Detroit sprawled well before those other cities listed did. The car companies moved to the burbs (Ford to Dearborn, Chrysler to Highland Park, AMC in Southfield), then the employees moved out to the burbs. GM has been based in Detroit proper since the twenties but had major operations in towns like Flint and Pontiac. Those cities decline started when they lost manufacturing plants.

[bradh]

want to see something depressing? check out these Silverdome photos

Detroiturbex.com - Pontiac Silverdome

[Snowman]

want to see something depressing? check out these Silverdome photos

Detroiturbex.com - Pontiac Silverdome

The thing that stood out in a lot of those photos is how good a condition the support structures looked, it could have probably been a functional building for several decades more with some level of maintenance but without a core tenant that would fill it they just are letting it rot.

[bradh]

The thing that stood out in a lot of those photos is how good a condition the support structures looked, it could have probably been a functional building for several decades more with some level of maintenance but without a core tenant that would fill it they just are letting it rot.

I noticed that too, appears to be a well built building. I never attended a game there but it always looked dreadful on TV, but those pictures show it to be a pretty decent facility.

[venture]

Well, what about Atlanta? ATL is still pretty good and I'm not sure how affected they were by the recession. I just don't see how sprawl led to Detroit's downfall.

You aren't reading. Detroit's downfall wasn't just sprawl...but it was a leading contributor. Like others have said, you aren't looking at sprawl in the right manner. Don't think of it in the manner of OKC or JAX expanding leaps and bounds out of a normal city's boundaries. Sprawl in this manner lead to many affluent suburbs popping up around the outskirts of Detroit and they just kept spreading out. The money left Detroit proper. That is the problem. You need to look at sprawl in that way, not expanding borders in the way we look at it here.

[Plutonic Panda]

You aren't reading. Detroit's downfall wasn't just sprawl...but it was a leading contributor. Like others have said, you aren't looking at sprawl in the right manner. Don't think of it in the manner of OKC or JAX expanding leaps and bounds out of a normal city's boundaries. Sprawl in this manner lead to many affluent suburbs popping up around the outskirts of Detroit and they just kept spreading out. The money left Detroit proper. That is the problem. You need to look at sprawl in that way, not expanding borders in the way we look at it here.

I think I see what you're saying. The money stayed out in the suburbs and never entered the city of Detroit directly- that makes sense.

[venture]

I think I see what you're saying. The money stayed out in the suburbs and never entered the city of Detroit directly- that makes sense.

To a point yes. More accurately the money originated in Detroit and left for the suburbs never to return. Detroit has several suburbs that make Edmond look like Valley Brook. Bloomfield Hills on the NW side of Detroit is always in the top 5 nationally of highest median incomes - over $100k/yr.

[bombermwc]

Very true Venture. When people say Detroit, they often try to associate the downfall with then entire metro. That is NOT the case. There is still a ton of money there. Ford Field and the Lions wouldn't be there if they weren't able to support it (just a small example). It's not as though the metro has dried up, it's just the city itself. If you speak to people in Detroit, they often don't refer to the area by the name Detroit anymore, rather one of the suburbs (although which one escapes my mind at the moment).

And to be fair with the Pontiac Dome, it was replaced with Ford Field. I don't want someone to think the place was abandoned because the teams left town. It was quite the opposite. And I'd give high praise to the city of DTW for being able to keep the stadium downtown in the midst of all of this trouble.

[the michigander]

Silverdome is in pontiac which is 45 minutes to a hour from detroit so is the palace of auburn hills where the detroit pistons play.

Sent from my MB855 using Tapatalk 2

[Just the facts]

want to see something depressing? check out these Silverdome photos

Detroiturbex.com - Pontiac Silverdome

See that first picture with the stadium surrounded by a sea of parking? That right there was problem number 1. Now compare that scene to the new Ford Field. It's still not perfect but they are moving in the right direction.

[ylouder]

Silverdome is in pontiac which is 45 minutes to a hour from detroit so is the palace of auburn hills where the detroit pistons play.

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I've been to Pontiac Michigan and as you said it's a long way from Detroit and recently was doing good until the gm facility (made gm sierra trucks and a few other things) shut down.

Tons of nice house but now there is nothing. Huge empty plant , all the suppliers that had huge facilities near by to support the plant closed, massive empty parking lots, massive empty really nice hotels....Everyone gone it was depressing.

Now your gm sierra 46,000 dollar truck is made in salio Mexico and all the suppliers are there too. Workers earn 40 dollars a week.

If that's not a markup then I don't know what is.

[ylouder]

Well never mind. I just Googled the facility and they tore it down. I stayed across the street from it a few years ago at the auburn hills Marriott , pontiac at center point ( they changed the name because it's not auburn hills). It was the first time in my life I saw a manufacturing plant that large and was taken back by all the recently empty businesses.

I was uncomfortable staying in such a large hotel because there might of been 15 other people staying in this huge 11 floor hotel. I dont k now if i can put it into words. But the whole town felt like being at your grandparents house after one of them died. Felt empty and sad.

[Just the facts]

Now your gm sierra 46,000 dollar truck is made in salio Mexico and all the suppliers are there too. Workers earn 40 dollars a week.

If that's not a markup then I don't know what is.

Just to keep it real (although it in no way invalidates your point):

GM, Ford Accelerate Shift to Mexico Workers Making $26 a Day - Bloomberg

GM workers in Mexico earn wages and benefits of 340 pesos a day ($26.40) on average, or less than $4 an hour, said Tereso Medina, head of the union for GM’s 5,000 workers in Saltillo, a city that makes one in four Mexican autos.

The reality is the price of automobiles far exceeds the price most Americans can afford to pay. It is a titanic problem facing out economy because auto loans are the second largest source of new money (thanks to the 'money as debt' model used by the Federal Reserve). No car sales, no new money in the economy, no money to pay back loans, liquidity trap, collapse of the currency. The only think that stopped collapse from happening last time was Bush and TARP.

[Plutonic Panda]

Just to keep it real (although it in no way invalidates your point):

GM, Ford Accelerate Shift to Mexico Workers Making $26 a Day - Bloomberg



The reality is the price of automobiles far exceeds the price most Americans can afford to pay. It is a titanic problem facing out economy because auto loans are the second largest source of new money (thanks to the 'money as debt' model used by the Federal Reserve). No car sales, no new money in the economy, no money to pay back loans, liquidity trap, collapse of the currency. The only think that stopped collapse from happening last time was Bush and TARP.

I would say it more has to do with greed in paying them those kinds of wages. Then again, the cost of living in Mexico in the third world areas are a completely different animal than here.

[ylouder]

26 ollars a day for 10 hour work shifts...paid by us tax payer bailout funds while laying off American workers. Disgusting.

[Just the facts]

26 ollars a day for 10 hour work shifts...paid by us tax payer bailout funds while laying off American workers. Disgusting.

It's best if you try not think about it. Plus, 2020 will be here before you know it.

[mugofbeer]

Maybe it is because we are looking at it on two different levels. In your world the left hand is eating the right hand and as a member of the left hand you are saying Yippe, better that we eat the right hand instead of it eating us (this is the whole 'would you rather have these jobs in another state' mentality). I am looking at it from the whole body perspective and saying holy crap, my left hand is eating my right hand - that can't be good. For the federal government to spend any money it first has to take that money out of the economy. It is impossible to fill a half-full bathtub only using water that is already INSIDE the tub.

JTF, you're reply to me had nothing to do with what I said. You're talking about the Federal Government while I'm talking about State and Local government. If you are of the mentality that all the money spent by government for investment, no matter the level of government, is taking money out the economy you simply don't comprehend the concept of investment. Sometimes it is necessary to pool money in one place to be invested in a limited, but focused way vs. the shotgun approach where small bits of money are invested for small things. This is why mutual funds, hedge funds, private equities and REIT's exist ant thrive. MAPS I and Bricktown's revival were such a marvelous success. It's why the forced construction of DFW Airport (vs. separate airports for Dallas and Ft. Worth) was such a key part of the explosion of the DFW metro. Sometimes, large levels of government spending are necessary to reach the critical mass to get private investment to take over. In your analogy, its not one hand eating the other, its one hand doing the job better than the other in certain circumstances.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a huge fan of government getting involved in our business - and usually they don't do it right. I've just seen too many cases where focused and thoughtful government investment in the right things can produce a return far bigger than the investment itself.

[Plutonic Panda]

Plus, 2020 will be here before you know it.

What is happening in 2020?

[Spartan]

You guys attempting to talk about Detroit is humorous to me. I just wrapped up hosting a 3-day conference on planning and preservation in rust belt cities which you guys would all have been laughed out of.

[Urbanized]

LOL you sure know how to charm them Sparty...

[Spartan]

I just don't know where to begin in addressing the ignorance in this thread, probably shouldn't.

[Rover]

I just don't know where to begin in addressing the ignorance in this thread, probably shouldn't.

Actually, you are the one that should. Your perspective is most valuable because you are specifically trained, experienced and currently active in relevant activity. Many on here only throw up conjecture and opinion, not facts or context.

[Spartan]

It's personally aggravating because legacy cities (aka rust belt cities) face problems that are cyclically driven by perception, which hampers those on the ground working to solve these problems.

By the way, everyone should get their head around this fact: Michigan is a top 5 state for R&D, propelled in large part by Michigan State and TSUN.

Statewide they have good income levels, good literacy and educational attainment stats, and their corporate economy is at least as diversified as OKC's. Thrown in for good measure amongst the auto makers are household products, cereal, finance, energy, among others.

Detroit isn't functioning as the major city of a healthy state. The problem is there's a disconnect driven by the over supply of real estate - continued production of more real estate - and the needs that all of these communities are clamoring against each other for. This is a problem of polarity and gravitational pull.

[Plutonic Panda]

I just don't know where to begin in addressing the ignorance in this thread, probably shouldn't.

Well can you? I've posted a few things on here and if I am in the wrong, I would sincerely like to know. I am not trying to ignorant on purpose.