Lindsey Street

[venture]

Considering a lot of the research facilities on campus are on the south end, would it not be more beneficial then to upgrade Highway 9 to a limited access highway? Remove all the intersections, put in on/off ramps, all the way to US 77 thereby increasing the capacity of traffic that can roll down it? This is where the bulk of the available land is around the OU campus and where additional companies will build, so it seems this is the section that would have the most benefit if we really want to have a higher speed option to campus.

[kevinpate]

How would that benefit SW Moore, er, um, I mean NW Norman?

[venture]

How would that benefit SW Moore, er, um, I mean NW Norman?

Well the concern was raised about getting to the research campus of OU, which is on the south side.

I guess we could always do a new outer loop up to NW Norman and just elevate it above the entire city of Norman...you know like Futurama or something.

[ou48A]

Considering a lot of the research facilities on campus are on the south end, would it not be more beneficial then to upgrade Highway 9 to a limited access highway? Remove all the intersections, put in on/off ramps, all the way to US 77 thereby increasing the capacity of traffic that can roll down it? This is where the bulk of the available land is around the OU campus and where additional companies will build, so it seems this is the section that would have the most benefit if we really want to have a higher speed option to campus.

I would also be for making HY 9 a limited access highway. But it would not eliminate the need to improve all of Lindsey street in some way. Bring HY 9 up to interstate standards is yet another area state project that has been needed for a very long time.

Considering Norman is the 3 largest city in the state and considering what's in Norman and how its a major destination for many of the states largest events the state has done a preety poor job of modernizing Norman's area state highways in a timely way. I honistly don't think the Norman area has been a very high priority for our states DOT..... in part because we haven't had local leadership pushing the highway issue as hard as they should.

If the state wants OU to be a major state economic engine for more things like the new GE energy then the states leadership needs to understand that they will need to invest in modernizing the Norman area infrastructure. This among other things includes modern streets, highways and fast commuter rail.

If Highway 9 was made into a limited access highway it would be nice to see an extension over I-35 to the west and then to the NW to a point where it meets up with the new 4 lanes of Western street. This would help the trafic during some of the large events in Norman. It would become much like Sooner road is during events,but on the west side.

The Western street project was yet another badly needed long over due project. But they did a nice job on it.

[ou48A]

I guess we could always do a new outer loop up to NW Norman and just elevate it above the entire city of Norman...you know like Futurama or something.

At one time (a long time ago) there was talk of an elevated Front street that would roughly follow the rail road tracks from north of Robinson though Norman down to about Brooks Street.

Personally I wish they would have dug a Chanel for the train and for storm water run off with a highway over the top.

[ou48A]

[HangryHippo]

Trey, was Dan's presentation just a slideshow of what might be possible with Lindsey St? Or was it more detailed in offering precise solutions for what could (should) be done with Lindsey St? Does that make sense?

Trey?

[Geographer]

Trey?

My apologies, I have not checked the forum in a few days. I have been quite busy this past week and weekend!

There were definitely more detailed and precise solutions. He had his engineer (and a couple students) create exact measurement renderings that added in the proposed roundabouts, etc. A lot of this was conceptual but they did show precise solutions as well.

[HangryHippo]

My apologies, I have not checked the forum in a few days. I have been quite busy this past week and weekend!

There were definitely more detailed and precise solutions. He had his engineer (and a couple students) create exact measurement renderings that added in the proposed roundabouts, etc. A lot of this was conceptual but they did show precise solutions as well.

That's good to hear. Thanks for the reply.

[venture]

Trey did they give an idea on how much capacity is going to be increased on Lindsey with these changes? I would imagine roundabouts help a ton.

[Geographer]

Trey did they give an idea on how much capacity is going to be increased on Lindsey with these changes? I would imagine roundabouts help a ton.

Well, roundabouts aren't necessarily increasing capacity, but rather flow...which does help of course too.

[venture]

Well, roundabouts aren't necessarily increasing capacity, but rather flow...which does help of course too.

Right...increasing the flow of traffic would essentially improve the capacity of traffic it can handle. I may not be phrasing it right, but I think you see where I'm coming from.

[Plutonic Panda]

Ah, they need to be stop being a bunch of squares and fork out 10 billion to build a 10 lane tunnel under OU.

Seriously though, I wonder if people would take a light-rail to the stadium? If Norman built a light-rail through-out the city and people could drive, walk, take a bus or ride their bikes to a park and ride station, I imagine that would help.

I really don't think adding two more lanes would help with 80,000 people, but who knows. Even if it did, wouldn't that make the property values drop by making it easier to drive to and from the game, thus making sprawl easier? Instead of wanting to buy a house right next to the campus or stadium to avoid the traffic, you wouldn't have to worry about the traffic since it's no longer a problem and you can just buy a house further out. . . don't know if that would be the case, but just a possibility.

If it were me, I'd just do the two lane with center turn, right turn, bike lanes, 10-15' sidewalks, round-a-bouts, and a light-rail would help(I think). Also, widening that highway to 6 lanes and making it limited access would be a game changer for that area as well.

Again, I think with the right combination of light-rail, bus expansion, road improvements, and 9 an official highway with interstate standards would do wonders. With a balanced and reasonable approach, anything can be an improvement, but like some stated, you are not going to move 80,000 people out of that area quickly and you should expect to experience traffic when you go to events like that.

[ou48A]

Ah, they need to be stop being a bunch of squares and fork out 10 billion to build a 10 lane tunnel under OU.

Seriously though, I wonder if people would take a light-rail to the stadium? If Norman built a light-rail through-out the city and people could drive, walk, take a bus or ride their bikes to a park and ride station, I imagine that would help.

I really don't think adding two more lanes would help with 80,000 people, but who knows. Even if it did, wouldn't that make the property values drop by making it easier to drive to and from the game, thus making sprawl easier? Instead of wanting to buy a house right next to the campus or stadium to avoid the traffic, you wouldn't have to worry about the traffic since it's no longer a problem and you can just buy a house further out. . . don't know if that would be the case, but just a possibility.

If it were me, I'd just do the two lane with center turn, right turn, bike lanes, 10-15' sidewalks, round-a-bouts, and a light-rail would help(I think). Also, widening that highway to 6 lanes and making it limited access would be a game changer for that area as well.

Again, I think with the right combination of light-rail, bus expansion, road improvements, and 9 an official highway with interstate standards would do wonders. With a balanced and reasonable approach, anything can be an improvement, but like some stated, you are not going to move 80,000 people out of that area quickly and you should expect to experience traffic when you go to events like that.

If you want adequate sidewalks and a center turn lane there is not currently enough room without buying property and tearing out large trees.


If large numbers of people can and arrive / leave quicker its less disruptive to the people who live in the area.....It makes the area a more desirable place to live which would help prices go up rather than hinder them.

Very few people would ever go to the trouble and expense of buying a home near campus to avoid football traffic. But wealthy boosters might buy a nice condo or stay in a nice hotel.... But for the campus area to be developed on any significant scale the property values will need to increases much higher than current levels. At least that been the pattern in other major city’s. The major developers simply won't be interested in developing in a area that doesn’t have modern vehicular access.... That's usually how density in an area that is already well developed is gained.... and there are going to be a lot of people who won't like any of it.

[Geographer]

If you want adequate sidewalks and a center turn lane there is not currently enough room without buying property and tearing out large trees.


If large numbers of people can and arrive / leave quicker its less disruptive to the people who live in the area.....It makes the area a more desirable place to live which would help prices go up rather than hinder them.

Very few people would ever go to the trouble and expense of buying a home near campus to avoid football traffic. But wealthy boosters might buy a nice condo or stay in a nice hotel.... But for the campus area to be developed on any significant scale the property values will need to increases much higher than current levels. At least that been the pattern in other major city’s. The major developers simply won't be interested in developing in a area that doesn’t have modern vehicular access.... That's usually how density in an area that is already well developed is gained.... and there are going to be a lot of people who won't like any of it.

You can't be serious. A developer just tried to do a rather impressive mixed-use development just north of campus corner...not anywhere near a 4-lane or larger arterial street.

And what are you talking about modern vehicular access? I drive my modern vehicle around norman and the campus area all of time. I think others do as well.

[ou48A]

You can't be serious. A developer just tried to do a rather impressive mixed-use development just north of campus corner...not anywhere near a 4-lane or larger arterial street.

And what are you talking about modern vehicular access? I drive my modern vehicle around norman and the campus area all of time. I think others do as well.

As far as I'm concerned the development north of campus corner is not very large scale.....What would it really change?
Unless OU sells land there is virtually no land of scale in this area that doesn’t already have something on it.

You can drive a new car around all day but very few streets not on campus but around campus are modern. Most were built well before WWII.
Many are narrow, frequently congested, they are crumbling in some cases. They also offer developers a range of flooding issues in some cases. There are many far better risk else where for the developers of large projects..... their due diligence would tell them this.

[Geographer]

I have never been on a congested neighborhood road that surrounds campus, like ever..gamedays, but that's it...besides that, the only street I've experienced congestion on (that's near campus) is Lindsey.

Did you not see the 3-4 story development that was proposed literally just north of campus corner? (where asp bends back to the northwest). A 3-4 story mixed use building is a pretty good size scale for everything else that's in that area, where it's mostly single story residential and commercial (until you hit main street).

We disagree again

[venture]

If you want adequate sidewalks and a center turn lane there is not currently enough room without buying property and tearing out large trees.


If large numbers of people can and arrive / leave quicker its less disruptive to the people who live in the area.....It makes the area a more desirable place to live which would help prices go up rather than hinder them.

Very few people would ever go to the trouble and expense of buying a home near campus to avoid football traffic. But wealthy boosters might buy a nice condo or stay in a nice hotel.... But for the campus area to be developed on any significant scale the property values will need to increases much higher than current levels. At least that been the pattern in other major city’s. The major developers simply won't be interested in developing in a area that doesn’t have modern vehicular access.... That's usually how density in an area that is already well developed is gained.... and there are going to be a lot of people who won't like any of it.

You are back to ignoring facts again. Property values in that area have been increasing, in many cases well in excess of 30% over the last 10 years which has been outpacing a lot of pre-existing developed areas in Norman. Wheat field to McMansion doesn't count.

It is almost like we are in this whole "no high density will come to Norman without a wider Lindsey." That is pretty effed up if one street has such an impact to bring down a city that is 100 square miles. LOL What's next? Demanding Boyd be 4/5 laned?

I lived two blocks from campus. Yes my street filled up with on street parking, but it is one of those things you deal with 6-7 times a year and then it is over. My old house over there doubled in value from when I first purchased it about 15 years ago. All that without a new Lindsey or other major changes to that area. So why aren't property values stagnant or massive amounts of houses for sale in that area?

I get what you are saying, but you continue to be disconnected from reality.

[ou48A]

I have never been on a congested neighborhood road that surrounds campus, like ever..gamedays, but that's it...besides that, the only street I've experienced congestion on (that's near campus) is Lindsey.

Did you not see the 3-4 story development that was proposed literally just north of campus corner? (where asp bends back to the northwest). A 3-4 story mixed use building is a pretty good size scale for everything else that's in that area, where it's mostly single story residential and commercial (until you hit main street).

We disagree again

If you have ever been to Lubbock and Texas Tech university in recent years you may have seen a large area of development that sits just across the street to the east of the TECH campus. What they have done is nothing short of miraculous compared to what that area was like just 12 years ago. . They have and are building the density and walkable areas that so many on here demand. OU / Norman should look at this and other similar developments near other campus to see how they did it, including the financing.

But we have to be willing to invest in our self’s. We have to make our self's more attractive to out side investors and developers. Other wise why would any large developer want to put his money on the line when its not at all hard to find better prospect and places that are far more cooperative than Norman. The city of Norman still has a very well known reputation for being very difficult to work with.... Don't believe me, just ask any significant size contractor who has done business in Norman for any length of time.

Bad out of date infrastructure such as what exist in any older areas near campus is enough to sour major redevelopment with density in those areas. It will take much higher property values than curent values and many high qulity jobs near by to see any new significant off campus density.

[ou48A]

Overton Park - Multiple Planning & Design Projects

Overton Park - Multiple Planning & Design Projects
Lubbock, Texas

PSC, in an on-going effort, has assisted both the City of Lubbock and McDougal Companies, the private developer in the urban redevelopment of 325 acres in downtown Lubbock adjacent to Texas Tech University. This ambitious project is the largest private downtown redevelopment in the United States.

The project has become the first public-private collaborative partnership of its kind in Lubbock. As part of this collaboration the City implemented a Tax Increment Finance (TIF) District. The project incorporates "new urbanism" planning concepts in this mixed use development. A mixture of retail, office, apartment/lofts and garage functions are underway, along with single family development with both townhomes and detached residences.

PSC in association with others was retained by the City of Lubbock to develop Overton Park Public Improvements Site Design Guidelines for the area, specifically uniform development of the TIF-funded, public improvements. Pedestrian-oriented spaces and an inviting, safe and walkable community were the major desires of both the private developer and the City of Lubbock. The guidelines include typical street hierarchy diagrams, pedestrian-friendly street cross-sections, parking diagrams, common material selections, landscape standards for Lubbock's semi-arid climate as well as appropriate site furnishing selections. Ultimately, the guidelines will be used to develop the entire district resulting in a cohesive image and a new model of urban development for the City of Lubbock. Related to this effort PSC developed a presentation style updated master plan of the proposed development features



http://www.team-psc.com/s2la_gateway.html


North University Gateway
Lubbock, Texas

This project was initially conceived by a local civic organization, Fiestas del Llano, as an arch of Spanish Renaissance style spanning over University Avenue at 3rd Street. The goal was to evoke a sense of entry to North Lubbock, a Hispanic residential and business district experiencing a resurgence of commercial development after decades of decline. For the project to reach fruition, the City of Lubbock acquired the project, and secured its necessary funding.

The design team explored a wide range of ideas that would best reflect the symbolism and the theme of community entry, history, and sense of place. The design evolved from a span over University Avenue-- which could have been perceived as a barrier, to a series of towers framing the street, creating an entrance or passage. The final selection best conveyed the themes desired, using light, water, street banners, and open framed towers to create a sense of place and entry.

In keeping with the originally desired architectural theme, and to acknowledge the architectural heritage of Texas Tech University's campus 3 blocks to the south, the tower's shape was formed out of elements of the Spanish Renaissance style. In order to break up the linear site, colored curvilinear accents were formed into the concrete plaza. Site furniture, formed with radii matching the concrete accents, was placed at intervals that preserve the open feel of the small site, while at the same time creating a small sense of "place" focusing inward and away from the adjacent traffic thoroughfare. A water feature consisting of a fountain origin pool at the north end of the site, a waist-high water trough wall and a fountain termination pool serves to define the background of the small seating areas. Because of periodic high winds, the fountain's vertical sprays are minimized. The use of granite splash stones in the fountain origin and termination pools, as well as the linear water trough spanning the site provide an interactive water feature with the soothing splashing sounds of water.

Patterned ceramic mosaic wall tile have been placed in the tower's and banner structure's concrete bases. The 70' length of the concrete water trough wall also has ceramic tile patterns running along its length. The tile colors and patterns are a reference to historic Mexican blankets.

During daylight hours, steel tower detailing makes use of sunlight to create interesting shadow patterns which move across the plaza, evoking a sense of time. In-grade light fixtures help accent the colors of concrete, steel and tile as well as the members of the structural steel framework during the evening darkness, encouraging human interaction beyond the 8 to 5 constraints of the workday.

Landscaping elements were selected to require minimal maintenance. Drought tolerant trees and hedges provide shade and definition to the plaza's spaces. Ornamental grasses will provide color during the spring and summer. In the fall and winter, the grasses become dormant, bringing different colors to the plaza's landscape. The movement of the grasses during periods of breezy weather evoke a sense of movement and interest, making one aware of one of this region's most notable characteristics--wind.

[Geographer]

This isn't lindsey street, but it's close! Re-striping of Asp to include bike lanes.

photo (3).jpgphoto (4).jpg

[HangryHippo]

This isn't lindsey street, but it's close! Re-striping of Asp to include bike lanes.

photo (3).jpgphoto (4).jpg

That's great to see! Thanks for the pictures.

[ou48A]

So Boren want's to construct a traffic circle at the intersection of Jenkins and Lindsey streets.

In such a prominent location an iconic high set sculpture is needed at the center of this circle.

Given the nature of the surrounding setting OU48A believes that the most appropriate sculpture at this location would be a 2 X life size bronze sculpture of the Sooner Schooner that would include the pony’s Boomer and Sooner. It would be a grand addition to the area.

Since Lindsey is probably going to be the main gate way to OU for many, many years the centers of all traffic circles along Lindsey Street should include art with an OU theme.

[kevinpate]

I feel uncertain how a traffic circle containing any meaningful center space would be possible in light of what presently exists, in particular the newest housing at the se corner of that intersection.

[Geographer]

I feel uncertain how a traffic circle containing any meaningful center space would be possible in light of what presently exists, in particular the newest housing at the se corner of that intersection.

I like the idea of having meaningful centerpieces in each of the roundabouts...to sort of tell a story or something.

Side note:

We need to start using the correct terminology. There is a big difference between a roundabout and a traffic circle. What we are talking about in Norman is a ROUNDABOUT...not a traffic circle.

"Roundabouts are not the same as traffic circles or rotaries. Traffic circles or rotaries have high-speed entries, weaving in the circle, low capacity, and many high-speed crashes. Sometimes motorists in the circle must yield to those entering. They are large and scary to drive – a “free for all” – and everyone hates them.
Roundabouts are the opposite. They require motorists to yield on entry. There is no weaving. Speeds are low, capacity is high, and crashes are few and minor. They are comfortable to drive, and if designed well, almost everyone likes them."

Ourston Roundabout Engineering | Roundabout vs. Traffic Circle