Asian District

[Rover]

These projects develop over time. Run down buildings are being replaced by better ones. People want to be there. Business increases making the area even more valuable. Soon land becomes worth more and sprawling surface lots get replaced with higher density development.

I think it is very encouraging to see clean new developments happening, even if they aren't perfect. The only way to completely control it otherwise is to have much tighter restrictions...which would likely tend to drive investments to other areas and make improvement happen much more slowly. Remember, perfection is the enemy of improvement.

[Architect2010]

People may criticize that particular development, but the plans I saw showed buildings that fronted Classen, were of course Asian-themed, and the parking lot was in the center of the development. It look[ED!] a lot better than some of the older strip projects, like the one that houses Greenhouse.

[Spartan]

I hope you're right 2010, but surely you'll understand that some of us aren't holding our breath.

[Architect2010]

Of course. I can see it being a complete piece of suburban crap too. I'm just hopeful that this could actually be a worthwhile development for Classen/Asian District.

[Rover]

Realistically, 25-30 blocks from the core, how much true high density urban development is going to be done. Even in Dallas, a city with 3 times our population, at 30 blocks out it isn't developed in a high density way...lots of strip centers, suburban style office buildings, surface parking lots, etc. So, we need to first accept that the rundown area needs to improve and it is being improved. Hopefully we will start to see elements of urban style, but it will likely be awhile before that area is truly urban. Meanwhile, while everyone on here looks down their nose at the suburbs, good projects along here, even if they MIGHT fit in the suburbs will be a great improvement over the rundown, dilapidated and ugly property that has populated the area the last few decades.

[HOT ROD]

Dallas only has double the pop of okc (not 3 times), just sayin.

[Rover]

Guess you are right, but Dallas area is 3 times the population and with FW 5 1/2 times.

Dallas 1.4 mil, OKC 580,000. Dallas FW Metro 6.4 million. OKC 1.25

Anyway, point is that even at substantially bigger population 30 blks out of downtown is developed in a more suburban way than urban. For us to expect 23-30 blocks out on classen to develop now as a heavily urban neighborhood is just probably wishful thinking. Would be nice though. We can hope DD, midtown, CTS, SOSA, etc. will become urban first.

[MikeOKC]

Dallas only has double the pop of okc (not 3 times), just sayin.

DFW metro is pushing seven million, Hot Rod.

[dankrutka]

I wouldn't count Dallas and Fort Worth as one thing when making comparisons to OKC. People that grow up in the Ft Worth area don't go to Dallas that much. They have their own downtown, urban area. Even if there is some cross over and advantages to the whole DFW area, I think it's fair to compare OKC to Dallas and Fort Worth separately.

[Rover]

OK, compare OKC to Dallas. But if you are really comparing, use the same criteria. OKC proper is over 600 square miles. Dallas proper is about 350. If you take the same area into account I stand by the assertion that Dallas is MUCH bigger and still not heavily urban 2-3 miles out from downtown. To expect OKC to be is wishful thinking.

[Skyline]

I think it simply comes down to getting the most out of the citizens tax dollars being invested in this area.

Phase 1; Okc invests public money in a specific distressed area of Okc. In this case the Asian District between 23rd and 30th along Classen. Tax dollars are spent on aesthetic improvements and infrastructure.

Phase 2; Private money soon follows with new developments and new businesses sprouting within the area.

Phase 3; Property values rise for everyone in the district. Tax dollars collected are also increased with the new businesses and developments.

Phase 4; Getting the most out of the area. This is a fine line of implementing design quality code enforcement, while not be viewed as anti-business.

[chuck johnson]

My family was one of the first Vietnamese families in OKC. My dad's first job was washing dishes at the Skirvin Hotel. I also remember when there was nothing other than the original Cao Nguyen. I'm late to this thread, but I think I can give some insight regarding the area, how it came to be, and where it may be headed.

After the Fall of Saigon in 1975, 125,000 Vietnamese made their way to the US. They were sent to refugee camps such as Camp Pendleton and in nearby Ft. Chaffee in Arkansas. Now after processing, they weren't simply allowed to go as you wished. If they were, they would all head to certain areas such as California and thereby overwhelm that area's resources. Rather, they were distributed across the United States relative to an area's resources.

The exception was if they had a sponsor. Someone who would take a certain level of liability and care for these refugees. In what I consider to be one of this country's finest moments, churches and other civic groups came forward by the hundreds if not thousands. These organizations taught the refugees how to speak English, pass their driving test, citizenship test, pay their taxes, start businesses, and all of the parts of being an American than many take for granted. What do you make for Thanksgiving? What is Thanksgiving? The Vietnamese refugees were given a level of support that few other immigrant group have received.

Oklahoma was no exception to this outpouring of assistance. This wave of refugees was also arguably Vietnam's elite. These were the educated, skilled, or connected. These were the people who would have been imprisoned or punished had they stayed behind. Additionally, the refugees had members who would become strong leaders within the new community. This confluence of hospitality, strong leadership, and a very determined group is why this district exists.

There are not a lot of Vietnamese in Oklahoma City. There are certainly more than one would think but not a lot. Despite efforts to spread us out, many did leave for California, Texas, etc. It wasn't a knock against Oklahoma, but a matter of comfort in numbers and other opportunities. Many more though, have stayed and thus the district has grown. It has grown despite most Vietnamese no longer living in the area. The Asian District will always exist simply because of the quality of the food. If you are Vietnamese or a fan of Vietnamese food, this area is your overall best bet. There are gems hidden elsewhere in the city, but not like this. The food has a created a cultural hub similar to Japantowns and Koreatowns across the country.

However, there are not enough Vietnamese in the city for the district to grow. It needs support from those who are not Vietnamese. We need to get beyond the point of tolerating different cultures and truly CELEBRATING different cultures. Vietnamese food is pretty inexpensive and very good. If you haven't had Dim Sum at Grand House you are truly missing out on a spectacle. Lee's Sandwiches has a plethora of inexpensive food adventures. Golden Phoenix does a 7-course beef tasting for about $13. If it's not your thing, take your kids down to the Asian market. It's like poor man's Sea World Aquarium. Pretend you're on No Reservations with Anthony Bourdain.

In regards to the developments in the area, I refer you back to Grand House. That is how it should be done. No front parking, it's all in the back. Instead, the building is closer to the street buffered by a sidewalk and great landscaping. Picture all of Classen with that design sensibility. It would be really great thoroughfare with an engaging, walkable streetscape. That level intimacy may even calm traffic. This would not cost any more to implement, but it requires a greater vision of what is possible. Unattractive buildings can be greatly mitigated with shrubs and trees. An ocean of parking in front does not help.

Urban planning should not be too rigid, but it should have a set standard with some "wiggle" room or quid pro quo. Developers love parking but if they want a lot of parking, ask for a lot of landscaping. If they'll agree to a different roofing material, waive some inspection fees. Give them expedited service in return for a few concessions. You certainly want to encourage development, but agreeing to a building that's life cycle may be 50+ years without serious consideration can be a mistake. I'll be the first to admit that some of this Asian inspired architecture is garish and cheap. That extra landscaping may be the best thing that comes out of the whole deal.

I'm rambling now, but since the comparison was made earlier in this thread I'll say a bit more. I think most Vietnamese here have a great sympathy towards the Hispanic immigrants that have come here. You'll see many of them working in the kitchens and fish markets in the Asian district. These new immigrants are not receiving the same level of support, but both groups have had to endure some of the same struggles. As wonderful as most Oklahomans were to my family, there were more than a few who were not and more than a few who continue to be so.

I'm aware that more than a few of these new immigrants may be here illegally, but the ones who are here legally are trying to forge their own district. Hopefully they succeed.....if only because of how good authentic Oaxacan, Peruvian, Guatemalan, etc food can be.

[dankrutka]

Wow. Great post with some solid insights. I hope the Asian District becomes even more successful in the future...

[ljbab728]

I'm rambling now, but since the comparison was made earlier in this thread I'll say a bit more. I think most Vietnamese here have a great sympathy towards the Hispanic immigrants that have come here. You'll see many of them working in the kitchens and fish markets in the Asian district. These new immigrants are not receiving the same level of support, but both groups have had to endure some of the same ugly comments and disdain. As wonderful as most Oklahomans were to my family, there were more than a few who were not and more than a few who continue to be so.

I'm aware that more than a few of these new immigrants may be here illegally, but the ones who are here legally are trying to forge their own district. Hopefully they succeed.....if only because of how good authentic Oaxacan, Peruvian, Guatemalan, etc food can be.

This is exactly what came to my mind when I first started reading your post. I applaud you for bringing this up and agree with you completely.

[Questor]

That was a great post chuck, thanks for sharing. Grand House may be one of my favorite restaurants in the city. I was so happy for them when they moved across the street to their current location years ago. I was in there a while back and was happy to see the older gentleman who has always been at the front greeting guests was still there! I could not believe it.

I am a big fan of the Pho places in the area. To me Vietnamese food always strikes me as a healthier, fresher option and I like the fact that so many of the dishes are free of soy sauce (I am not a big fan). For me the district has really helped me to see the fantastic variety of foods and cultures of Asia. At home I often make my own dishes that are combinations of things I like about several of them... The lightness and unique flavors of Vietnamese, spiciness of Thai, the pickled dishes of Korea... It's fantastic. Never would have known without the area. Oddly enough understanding the food has helped me to better understand the people. It is said that math is the universal language, but often times I wonder if it isn't really food.

[stlokc]

Thank you for your post, Chuck, and thanks for the follow up, Questor. I love discussions that demonstrate the diversity of OKC and I learned some things with this one.
Regarding urban design, there is no reason that urban style development can't exist 30 blocks, or 60 blocks, or 100 blocks from downtown. Many if not most successful cities are really patchworks of neighborhoods with small urban clusters at the neighborhoods' hearts. I live in St. Louis and there are dozens of these little urban "nodes", with six or eight square block walkable streetscapes many miles out. These places add character. But in reality, nothing inside the Grand Blvd loop can really be considered "suburban." Look at Western below Chesapeake or Capitol Hill as OKC examples. I say, add the density and grow the "urban" core of OKC.

[Urban Pioneer]

Great, awesome, post!!!

[Spartan]

In regards to the developments in the area, I refer you back to Grand House. That is how it should be done. No front parking, it's all in the back. Instead, the building is closer to the street buffered by a sidewalk and great landscaping. Picture all of Classen with that design sensibility. It would be really great thoroughfare with an engaging, walkable streetscape. That level intimacy may even calm traffic. This would not cost any more to implement, but it requires a greater vision of what is possible. Unattractive buildings can be greatly mitigated with shrubs and trees. An ocean of parking in front does not help.

Urban planning should not be too rigid, but it should have a set standard with some "wiggle" room or quid pro quo. Developers love parking but if they want a lot of parking, ask for a lot of landscaping. If they'll agree to a different roofing material, waive some inspection fees. Give them expedited service in return for a few concessions. You certainly want to encourage development, but agreeing to a building that's life cycle may be 50+ years without serious consideration can be a mistake. I'll be the first to admit that some of this Asian inspired architecture is garish and cheap. That extra landscaping may be the best thing that comes out of the whole deal.

Awesome, awesome post, and I agree wholeheartedly with the cultural insights I cut out of your quote, I just have nothing to add to it. As for development, we all know that the city apparatus is not going to become this wonderful proactive development entity. It's going to continue to poorly process projects, fail to apply good planning measures to OKC, and it will fall well short in giving individual attention to certain areas. Expecting more of the same service, in this situation, how do you see the Asian District 5-10-15 years from now?

[HarryMoto]

Realistically, 25-30 blocks from the core, how much true high density urban development is going to be done. Even in Dallas, a city with 3 times our population, at 30 blocks out it isn't developed in a high density way...lots of strip centers, suburban style office buildings, surface parking lots, etc. So, we need to first accept that the rundown area needs to improve and it is being improved. Hopefully we will start to see elements of urban style, but it will likely be awhile before that area is truly urban. Meanwhile, while everyone on here looks down their nose at the suburbs, good projects along here, even if they MIGHT fit in the suburbs will be a great improvement over the rundown, dilapidated and ugly property that has populated the area the last few decades.

As a Dallas resident, I agree and somewhat disagree. While much of the city's development is suburban, Dallas has several nodes of urban development that aren't downtown. I would offer Lower Greenville Avenue in East Dallas, McKinney Avenue in Uptown, Cedar Springs Avenue in Oak Lawn, and the Bishop Arts District in Oak Cliff as examples. No one's going to confuse them with Manhattan but they're there. Since moving here, I've yet to make it up to OKC though one of the first places I want to go to when I visit is the Asian District.

[chuck johnson]

As for development, we all know that the city apparatus is not going to become this wonderful proactive development entity. It's going to continue to poorly process projects, fail to apply good planning measures to OKC, and it will fall well short in giving individual attention to certain areas. Expecting more of the same service, in this situation, how do you see the Asian District 5-10-15 years from now?

I think the newer of generation of urban planners have better grasp of urban needs than their predecessors who were taught to design cities around cars and sprawl. As the "good ol' boys" retire and we get some younger blood into the planning department change will come. Hopefully the new generation will be able to avoid the pitfalls and pressures placed on them by political and financial interests.

My background is in architecture and I worked as a designer/drafter in the San Francisco Bay Area for a few years. One of my early tasks was to grab permits and go to planning meetings. Much of this was in Silicon Valley where the planning environment was much more progressive. There was a collaborative effort by planners and developers. Planners actually wanted the developments to succeed and consequently the developers seemed to be really proactive in meeting given requirements.

My first meeting was a debacle. I pretty much did everything wrong. They were not happy and thought I was trying to pull a fast one. I told the planners that it was my first time and they enthusiastically held my hand through the entire process. They even invited me to come down anytime and sit in on their plan reviews of others. The lead planner promised to call me if there was anything coming up that was relevant to my project. He did too. They not only helped my project succeed but educated me in the process. Keep in mind, we didn't get nearly everything we wanted. I'm no longer in the field and don't know what the atmosphere here is, but it certainly seems as though there is a disconnect, a lack of vision, and lack of "teeth" in the department.

The only recourse is within the community. I lived in San Francisco proper and when any new development occurred, the owner was required to post a giant "poster" on the property and take and ad stating the project intentions and notify the community of the next planning meeting. In an urban/dense environment, a single structure can impact the community greatly. It impacts traffic, safety, business, etc. While it was sometimes contentious and sometimes I saw projects rejected that I thought were great, the community usually turned out to be correct. The developments that succeeded were the ones where the ownership engaged the local community and addressed concerns and questions.

I understand that we are in a recession and want to encourage as much investment and development as possible, but that's really no excuse to expect more from developers. The community should not be afraid to engage those who are building in their neighborhood and developers should engage said community. The community gets a better project and the developer makes a nice profit, a product he/she can be proud, and credibility within the community.

As for the Asian district, it's only dilemma is that so few Asians reside in the area. Most have moved to the suburbs. The younger generation is coming back but they aren't coming back to run the businesses for the most part. There really aren't that many businesses and it won't take much for the area to regress. Grand House would be a tremendous loss. That is not only among the best in the area, but the most credible. It defies many stereotypes about Asian restaurants and I think the best Chinese restaurant in the city. (I like the original Dot Wo but it really needs a makeover). It pains me to know that there are people waiting 45+ minutes at PF Chang when the we have the real deal in Grand House. I'll say it again, if you haven't had dim sum and a Sat. or Sun. morning, you are really missing out on what has become a ritual for many.

Overall though, I think the Asian District will stand the test of time. It's become too important within the Vietnamese community and the hub of its culture. Restaurants may come and go but the expectation and demand for quality among food crazy Asians will offset any turnover. I do think Super Cao Nguyen may have become too big and powerful. There have been a few niche businesses that have folded since it arrived. It was just too much competition for Vietnamese dollars. At the same time it serves as a tremendous anchor for the area.

We live in a time when people are becoming far more adventurous regarding food. We also have a generation+ of young people who grew up with Vietnamese friends and classmates. For the most part, the xenophobia towards Asian people in OKC is gone. I still get a kick out of seeing non-Vietnamese people slurping up bowls of noodles and seeing the wide eyes at Cao Nguyen. As I noted earlier, it's the non-Asian residents who will really determine the future of the district regarding growth.

[Architect2010]

What another awesome post. Very thorough in your thoughts, and I can relate to being the non-Vietnamese kid in the Asian District. I love Cao Nguyen... and any form of noodle they have.

[Spartan]

Anyone know what is going on with Jade Plaza between 23rd and Kamp's? I've noticed scaffolding on the east facade fronting Classen for a while, and now some masonry is tore up in the front - looks like some significant work.

[Skyline]

Anyone know what is going on with Jade Plaza between 23rd and Kamp's? I've noticed scaffolding on the east facade fronting Classen for a while, and now some masonry is tore up in the front - looks like some significant work.

Jade plaza (24th & Classen - west side of street) is about half way finished with an extensive exterior addition. They are adding the ornamental Asian inspired architecture elements to this once run down looking shopping center. This should look really nice once it is finished, big upgrade for the Asian district.

[metro]

Yeah it's been coming along nicely, dramatic improvement.

[Bits_Of_Real_Panther]

You probably saved him from being dinner in the Asian District.

rawr!