Winstar World Casino

[chssooner]

I just hate that we can't have corporate casinos. Limiting it to tribes is never a good thing. I love the tribes, and all they do for the state. But limiting casinos to just them is going to cost this state dearly in the next 5 years...

[gjl]

With as Bible Belt as this state is consider us lucky that we have what we have. Before the Tribe casinos, never in my life would I ever thought Oklahoma would have any form of Casino gambling. Or even horse racing. In the early 70's we used to have to go to Hot Springs AR for that. Next up let's get sports gambling.

[Dob Hooligan]

I just hate that we can't have corporate casinos. Limiting it to tribes is never a good thing. I love the tribes, and all they do for the state. But limiting casinos to just them is going to cost this state dearly in the next 5 years...

Could you elaborate on that projection?

[chssooner]

Could you elaborate on that projection?

Sure. The casinos that get built in Texas will be more like Vegas-styles mega casinos with upscale shopping, 40 story towers, etc. Our are smelly, smoke-filled, and decrepit. Winstar and Choctaw Grand are nice, but they will also suffer BIGLY if Texas legalizes gambling. Just me, but limiting it to simply tribes having gambling is narrow and will hurt Oklahoma in the next couple of years. Especially since they can only be on tribal trust land (bigger issue, to me). DFW will have multiple large casinos on busy intersections throughout, essentially killing Winstar and Choctaw Casinos.

[soonergolfer]

I think the big money is being spent on the pro-gaming side. Las Vegas Sands, who used to own and operate The Venetian/Palazzo, has spent the most on lobbyists for any issue in Texas over the last 2 years. There's been a lot of money spent over the last 10 years trying to get casino gambling passed in Texas, and I don't think they are any closer to yes than they ever have been.

I think the Chickasaws bought the Dallas horse track about 10 years ago and are holding it in case Racinos are allowed.

I think biggest parts of Texas are pretty well served currently. The metroplex has the Oklahoma resorts 70-80 miles to the north, and Houston has many Louisiana choices just over 100 miles east. That's enough to keep the legislature from legalizing casino gambling in Texas. So far.

You may be correct about the Chickasaw part, but I just don’t see how legalizing it in Texas benefits them. Sure, they could build a casino in Dallas, but so could Caesars, MGM, and definitely Stations Casino with Texan Tilman Fertitta being a major player. If any build mega resorts, then Winstar and Choctaw will be ghost towns. It just seems like a pretty big risk to be adding with that uncertainty lingering.

Though, even if Texas does pass it by the end of the decade, Chickasaw will probably have paid for the expansion 3x over.

[ourulz2000]

If any build mega resorts, then Winstar and Choctaw will be ghost towns.

My post on the previous page outlined why this is an impossibility. Reason: 1a) The population of DFW metroplex is going to almost double in the next 30 years. 1b) The population of DFW metroplex is going to almost double in the next 30 years. 2) Winstar is already the biggest casino in the world. 3) Denton County & Collin County - which have half the population of the entire state of Oklahoma - residents would still be more inclined to drive north with no traffic to somewhere in central Dallas, Arlington, Grand Prairie, etc. 4) Tribes have deeper pockets to get big concert acts and put a non-compete radius on entire DFW metroplex. 5) There is something to be said for "getting away", even if it is 50 minute drive only, than going to the new local casino down the street. Some people might not want to run into their boss, co-workers, friends, family, etc. 6) There is going to be large population growth in the Sanger / Gainesville / Ardmore corridor over the next 10 years. Big commercial projects planned that will have large employee bases.

[Dob Hooligan]

You may be correct about the Chickasaw part, but I just don’t see how legalizing it in Texas benefits them. Sure, they could build a casino in Dallas, but so could Caesars, MGM, and definitely Stations Casino with Texan Tilman Fertitta being a major player. If any build mega resorts, then Winstar and Choctaw will be ghost towns. It just seems like a pretty big risk to be adding with that uncertainty lingering.

Though, even if Texas does pass it by the end of the decade, Chickasaw will probably have paid for the expansion 3x over.

Take my ramblings with a grain of salt. Except...Tilman Fertitta is NOT Station Casinos. Frank III and Lorenzo Fertitta are Station (AKA Red Rock Casinos). I recall they are second cousins of Tilman, and are not reported to be close. Tilman bought Golden Nugget from Tom Breitling and Tim Poster in 2004-ish. Galveston raised and a University of Houston alum. I know he is a great Texas businessman, but I don't read much about him agitating for casino gambling in Texas.

I think the Texas situation might be waiting until the New York City market clears up. There are more big players trying to get in than available licenses. And the state and city both want huge complexes with equally huge tax payments.

[Jersey Boss]

Sure. The casinos that get built in Texas will be more like Vegas-styles mega casinos with upscale shopping, 40 story towers, etc. Our are smelly, smoke-filled, and decrepit. Winstar and Choctaw Grand are nice, but they will also suffer BIGLY if Texas legalizes gambling. Just me, but limiting it to simply tribes having gambling is narrow and will hurt Oklahoma in the next couple of years. Especially since they can only be on tribal trust land (bigger issue, to me). DFW will have multiple large casinos on busy intersections throughout, essentially killing Winstar and Choctaw Casinos.

I guess Riverwind, Claremore Hardrock and Riverspirit neither meet your standards or those of Texans. Who knew?

How though would having casinos outside of tribal land benefit Oklahoma if Texas does build casinos? Slicing the pie thinner for residents is benefiting the state how?

[jn1780]

My post on the previous page outlined why this is an impossibility. Reason: 1a) The population of DFW metroplex is going to almost double in the next 30 years. 1b) The population of DFW metroplex is going to almost double in the next 30 years. 2) Winstar is already the biggest casino in the world. 3) Denton County & Collin County - which have half the population of the entire state of Oklahoma - residents would still be more inclined to drive north with no traffic to somewhere in central Dallas, Arlington, Grand Prairie, etc. 4) Tribes have deeper pockets to get big concert acts and put a non-compete radius on entire DFW metroplex. 5) There is something to be said for "getting away", even if it is 50 minute drive only, than going to the new local casino down the street. Some people might not want to run into their boss, co-workers, friends, family, etc. 6) There is going to be large population growth in the Sanger / Gainesville / Ardmore corridor over the next 10 years. Big commercial projects planned that will have large employee bases.

Legalized gambling in Texas would significantly eat into Oklahoma casino profits, Sure, Winstar is the "biggest Casino",, but that is largely because there is a large number of day trippers from Texas and they need lots of games to meet demand. They certainly hope gambling is not legalized anytime soon.

That said, the Chickasaw Nation realizes they need to diversify and make Winstar more than just a place to gamble and our adding in the extra entertainment and shopping amenities like you would find in Vegas. . So they will have a head start if gambling is legalized in Texas.

[ourulz2000]

Oklahoma's Winstar & Choctaw Casinos past and current impact on Shreveport + Port Charles gambling industry is bigger than what Texas is going to do to Oklahoma. Texas legalization will significantly hurt LA more than OK.

[scottk]

Serious question for the Gen X'ers and Millennials on this forum, as the Boomer generation ages, are casinos, in particular what WinStar and Choctaw Durant offer, still appealing?

We have made a few pit stops at Winstar on the way back from Dallas, and outside of gambling, what do you do if there isn't a concert/comedian that weekend? I know Choctaw Durant has added a few family friendly things like a bowling alley and movie theatre, but you can drive to Memorial Road for that. How do these places remain destinations? OKC locally has nice hotels and fine dining equal or greater than WinStar and Choctaw Durant.

I think places like Las Vegas are easily equipped to shift from a gambling destination to a total entertainment destination with ease, and will always attract avid gamblers, but for a casino off of a highway or in a smaller town, what's the draw for future generations? Generation Z and Millennials in particular are showing trends of less disposable income and prefer to spend that income on experiences, versus what previous generations have spent.

[catch22]

Friends my age are big into sports betting. Not as much cards or slots, but will still play them.

[gjl]

I wonder if Winstar would be anywhere near as busy Sunday through Thursday if they didn't comp hotel rooms so much. We used to go maybe once a year before we started getting monthly 2 nights comped regularly. Now we go about every 2 months. I'm sure many others there those days are there because of free stays too.

[ComeOnBenjals!]

Serious question for the Gen X'ers and Millennials on this forum, as the Boomer generation ages, are casinos, in particular what WinStar and Choctaw Durant offer, still appealing?

I think places like Las Vegas are easily equipped to shift from a gambling destination to a total entertainment destination with ease, and will always attract avid gamblers, but for a casino off of a highway or in a smaller town, what's the draw for future generations? Generation Z and Millennials in particular are showing trends of less disposable income and prefer to spend that income on experiences, versus what previous generations have spent.

There are quite a few people I know (I'm a young millennial) who are into sports betting.. a handful of them are fans of the casino. I'd say overall in my circles it's not very popular. It's smoky, the crowds are generally 60+, and watching elderly people methodically play slot machines is depressing. If the casinos focus on shows and entertainment, maybe that's the answer for the younger generations, although I have my doubts.

[Pete]

Two of the most depressing things I've ever experienced were at casinos...

The first was getting up early one morning in Vegas and walking into one of the mid-tier casinos trying to find something to eat (everything is designed to force you to walk through the casino). It was like 7:30 AM and there were loads of sad, broken-down people in there smoking their heads off and pumping coins into slots like glassy-eyed zombies. Really the ugly side of gambling and related addiction.

The second was walking through the Remington casino on a Tuesday afternoon to meet someone there. It was pretty much a repeat of the scene in Vegas but felt worse since it was only a few miles from where I live.

I don't think I've gambled a single dollar since.

[gjl]

If you go for the entertainment, and it can be entertaining and go with a set amount to gamble for that day and look at it as if i lose that set amount then that's what that day's entertainment cost. No different than any other entertainment anyone else thinks spending money on costs. More often than not we either break even or come back ahead. My wife even came back on one trip with a 1099. It's just a get away for a few days. Get to eat at different restaurants that we don't have around here and with comped hotel rooms it's not that expensive of a 2-3 day vacation. You have to know when to walk away from a machine when you are up and not give it all back.

[Pete]

Didn't mean to sound judgemental about those who enjoy gambling, just not my thing and there is a huge addiction issue that doesn't get much light.

I still love Vegas once in a while for the restaurants, shows and nightlife. Have had some great times there.

[gjl]

I wouldn't even say I enjoy gambling. But I do enjoy the entertainment of going to Winstar. If I just wanted to gamble I could do it a lot closer to home.

[Dob Hooligan]

I think Winstar is a north Texas short drive getaway resort. Their biggest investment the last 10 years has been focused on the resort market. Golf courses, landing strip, live entertainment, lodging, swimming pools and other amenities. The half million square foot “slot barn” was built out of cash flow from about 2000 to 2010-ish.

Their challenge isn’t getting young people, IMO. Rather it is getting people with disposable income and time. Most of whom are in their late 30s and up. The younger crowd is still beholden to weekend free time and the older group has more midweek freedom. A movie plex or bowling alley are more focused to locals, and Winstar isn’t a locals casino. I think Winstar does a good job of providing midweek room deals that bring in gamblers and golfers, while weekends are augmented by live entertainment.

Winstar is setting up to be a north Texas getaway that has gambling. Serving millions of people within an hour to hour and a half drive, it can be an alternative to Gaylord Texan or Great Wolf Lodge, etc.

[chssooner]

Winstar needs some nicer restaurants that aren't steakhouse. Those are a dime a dozen in Dallas, so why would anyone go there for steak. An upscale chain would do well there, snd help supplement gambling money and attract a slightly different customer.

The new events center will CRUSH it, by the way! The old one killed it, and this holds 3k more.

[gjl]

Well there is no shortage of customers at Kirby's. Price wise it on a par with Ruth's Chris we go to at River Spirit. If you don't make reservations at least 2-3 weeks ahead of when you are going there, you aren't getting in. And there is always a long line waiting to try and get in to Micky Mantles Bar. You will stand in line for 2-3 hours some nights at their Buffet. Try getting in on Thursday night when it's all you can eat crab legs. They have a nice Italian restaurant and just opened a new Mexican restaurant. And Dallas Cowboys is not like anything we have around here. There is Toby Keith's but I wouldn't call that upscale.

[Bunty]

Well there is no shortage of customers at Kirby's. Price wise it on a par with Ruth's Chris we go to at River Spirit. If you don't make reservations at least 2-3 weeks ahead of when you are going there, you aren't getting in. And there is always a long line waiting to try and get in to Micky Mantles Bar. You will stand in line for 2-3 hours some nights at their Buffet. Try getting in on Thursday night when it's all you can eat crab legs. They have a nice Italian restaurant and just opened a new Mexican restaurant. And Dallas Cowboys is not like anything we have around here. There is Toby Keith's but I wouldn't call that upscale.

What if you want to come at 4pm? Too many retired folks wanting to get in there, too?

[gjl]

If you are asking about Kirby's their hours are Sun-Thur 5-10, Fri-Sat 5-11. If you don't have reservations you aren't getting in. We've tried.

[PhiAlpha]

Serious question for the Gen X'ers and Millennials on this forum, as the Boomer generation ages, are casinos, in particular what WinStar and Choctaw Durant offer, still appealing?

We have made a few pit stops at Winstar on the way back from Dallas, and outside of gambling, what do you do if there isn't a concert/comedian that weekend? I know Choctaw Durant has added a few family friendly things like a bowling alley and movie theatre, but you can drive to Memorial Road for that. How do these places remain destinations? OKC locally has nice hotels and fine dining equal or greater than WinStar and Choctaw Durant.

I think places like Las Vegas are easily equipped to shift from a gambling destination to a total entertainment destination with ease, and will always attract avid gamblers, but for a casino off of a highway or in a smaller town, what's the draw for future generations? Generation Z and Millennials in particular are showing trends of less disposable income and prefer to spend that income on experiences, versus what previous generations have spent.

I have friends between 25-40 that drop a ton of money at casinos both here and in Vegas. It's not just a Gen X and Boomer thing.

[BoulderSooner]

I have friends between 25-40 that drop a ton of money at casinos both here and in Vegas. It's not just a Gen X and Boomer thing.

same