OKC mass transit announcement!!

[Platemaker]

fuzzytoad... are you even aware of/ have read the Fixed Guideway Study?

[soonerguru]

IMHO, "Mass Transit" for OKC means a line system to connect Edmond, Moore, Mustang, The Village, etc... with the downtown area as a hub. That would alleviate congestion and cut down pollution.

The suburbs are not part of current planning because the city doesn't want to invest money to encourage people to leave the city! However, a commuter system could be created over time with the suburbs' support, like DART has done in Dallas.

Regarding congestion, the plan involves very nice buses and improved coverage overall, so, yes, congestion would be reduced.

Remember, it's not just the street car (that just provides a little sex appeal).

[fuzzytoad]

fuzzytoad... are you even aware of/ have read the Fixed Guideway Study?

No sir, I am not and have not.

got a link?

[Martin]

that map posted is not legit

you posted the link to the site that hosts it... did you post a link to a site that isn't legit?

-M

[Platemaker]

Programs and Services > Transportation and Data Services > Fixed Guideway Systems

[PLANSIT]

yes, I'm aware of that.




Where does it detail this information on the Welcome | Modern Transit Project in Oklahoma City website?

I'll admit that I may have missed it when visiting the site, but the only place I've seen any details of connecting any real commuter areas to this "Streetcar" system are wishes and hopes from posters to this thread.

It doesn't, two separate but complementary systems. Again, this is for the Streetcar component. The other components are also in the planning stages, but are much more complex with regards to funding, governance, and prioritization.

No sir, I am not and have not.

got a link?

Fixed Guideway Study

[warreng88]

Where does it detail this information on the Welcome | Modern Transit Project in Oklahoma City website?

I'll admit that I may have missed it when visiting the site, but the only place I've seen any details of connecting any real commuter areas to this "Streetcar" system are wishes and hopes from posters to this thread.

Here is the quote:

"The Association of Central Oklahoma Goverments (ACOG) has recently developed a regional committee to partner with the City of Oklahoma City and other metro cities to utilize the Fixed Guideway Study as a springboard for coordinated transit improvements. This will lead to joint planning and system integration with our neighboring communities of Edmond, Moore, Norman, Del City, Midwest City."

If you look under the area called "Following Steps" you will find what follows this. It doesn't detail anything, just talks about doing it in the future. I think they want to make sure something like this is usefull and succeeds before they sink billions into expanding it.

[fuzzytoad]

misread, delete this post please

[fuzzytoad]

Programs and Services > Transportation and Data Services > Fixed Guideway Systems

thanks! I'll read it!

[fuzzytoad]

Here is the quote:

"The Association of Central Oklahoma Goverments (ACOG) has recently developed a regional committee to partner with the City of Oklahoma City and other metro cities to utilize the Fixed Guideway Study as a springboard for coordinated transit improvements. This will lead to joint planning and system integration with our neighboring communities of Edmond, Moore, Norman, Del City, Midwest City."

If you look under the area called "Following Steps" you will find what follows this. It doesn't detail anything, just talks about doing it in the future. I think they want to make sure something like this is usefull and succeeds before they sink billions into expanding it.

I did indeed miss that part.. thanks!

[OKCisOK4me]

yes, I'm aware of that.




Where does it detail this information on the Welcome | Modern Transit Project in Oklahoma City website?

I'll admit that I may have missed it when visiting the site, but the only place I've seen any details of connecting any real commuter areas to this "Streetcar" system are wishes and hopes from posters to this thread.

Where were all of the maps on our current modern developments when they first planned the city street grid system??? These are all individual projects and will grow off of eachother as they are implemented.

[ssandedoc]

I'm excited! But lord knows Tom Elmore is going to giddy over this.

[fuzzytoad]

Where were all of the maps on our current modern developments when they first planned the city street grid system??? These are all individual projects and will grow off of eachother as they are implemented.

Valid point, but I still stand by my original decision on this whole thing.

Creating a viable mass transit system in a city has *never* worked when centralizing the transit system to the least commonly used/needed area.

If a transit system is going to relieve congestion, it has to do so at the areas of congestion, in other words, the places where people have to drive to and from work. Not everyone lives *and* works in downtown okc. Most downtown works live outside the downtown area and this streetcar system isn't going to do them any good.

What will happen is the same thing that happened in Portland, Seattle and Minneapolis. A centralized Downtown-only transit system got less than 1% usage from people who drove their own vehicles(and caused an increase in congestion around the transit-enabled area), the plan was called a failure and all future connection projects to suburbs and commuters were cancelled.

[PLANSIT]

Valid point, but I still stand by my original decision on this whole thing.

Creating a viable mass transit system in a city has *never* worked when centralizing the transit system to the least commonly used/needed area.

If a transit system is going to relieve congestion, it has to do so at the areas of congestion, in other words, the places where people have to drive to and from work. Not everyone lives *and* works in downtown okc. Most downtown works live outside the downtown area and this streetcar system isn't going to do them any good.

What will happen is the same thing that happened in Portland, Seattle and Minneapolis. A centralized Downtown-only transit system got less than 1% usage from people who drove their own vehicles(and caused an increase in congestion around the transit-enabled area), the plan was called a failure and all future connection projects to suburbs and commuters were cancelled.

:facepalm:

What are you talking about?

Portland recently opened another expansion, Seattle just approved $17 billion for LRT, and Minneapolis is currently in the preliminary stages of a planned complete system. Am I missing something here?

Again, because you don't seem to listen, this is ONE component of a planned system which includes the suburbs.

[soonerguru]

What will happen is the same thing that happened in Portland, Seattle and Minneapolis. A centralized Downtown-only transit system got less than 1% usage from people who drove their own vehicles(and caused an increase in congestion around the transit-enabled area), the plan was called a failure and all future connection projects to suburbs and commuters were cancelled.

This is absolutely not true. Also, remember the plan is not just the street car. It involves significant improvement in the new buses and routes.

[PLANSIT]

And lets not kid ourselves, if we try to sell this as a relief of congestion, we are going fail. OKC does not have congestion. Here and Here.

[metro]

you posted the link to the site that hosts it... did you post a link to a site that isn't legit?

-M

Edited my original post, I was posting from Iphone at Mayors Conference and couldn't express my complete thought. It's merely a "guideline" not a final map.

[fuzzytoad]

:facepalm:

What are you talking about?

Portland recently opened another expansion, Seattle just approved $17 billion for LRT, and Minneapolis is currently in the preliminary stages of a planned complete system. Am I missing something here?

Again, because you don't seem to listen, this is ONE component of a planned system which includes the suburbs.

What you're conviently failing to acknowledge is that the $18b seattle is getting and the monetary incentive minneapolis is using are part of the 23 transit incentives given to states as part of the bailout. Money being used in Seattle and Minneapolis to *finish* or fix what has already failed after already having billions spent on them over the last 12-15 years.

We're starting from scratch, and starting in the *exact* same way that has failed in every other city it was started in..

Are you saying we should just go ahead and "hope" for another bailout program in 15 years to fix our transit system that nobody uses?

and yes, I did listen.. which is why I mentioned the fact that a centralized plan has always failed and caused the suburb plans to be cancelled..

[fuzzytoad]

And lets not kid ourselves, if we try to sell this as a relief of congestion, we are going fail. OKC does not have congestion. Here and Here.

yeah, those are pretty graphs and all.. They don't explain why it takes an hour to 2 hours to drive 14 miles on I-235 every weekday.

I realize that people like to throw out graphs that explain why real-world experiences aren't really real, but I'm confident that the voters in Oklahoma will see this for what it really is..

[FritterGirl]

yeah, those are pretty graphs and all.. They don't explain why it takes an hour to 2 hours to drive 14 miles on I-235 every weekday.

Seriously? Methinks this is a WEEEE bit of an exaggeration. I drive I-235 from Edmond to downtown daily, and it generally only takes me 30-35 minutes from Memorial Road to my parking garage downtown, save for days like to day when there are accidents, and it tacked on about 10-15 more minutes.

[wsucougz]

What will happen is the same thing that happened in Portland, Seattle and Minneapolis. A centralized Downtown-only transit system got less than 1% usage from people who drove their own vehicles(and caused an increase in congestion around the transit-enabled area), the plan was called a failure and all future connection projects to suburbs and commuters were cancelled.

Um, Seattle(Sound transit) light rail is continuing to expand into the suburbs with Bellevue next on the list. Seeing as it hasn't been called a failure, nor have future connection projects to the suburbs been cancelled, I guess you don't really know what you're talking about.

Also, Portland's streetcar system, from what I understand, has been a big success. They are also expanding streetcar and light rail.

FAIL.

[feconi]

And lets not kid ourselves, if we try to sell this as a relief of congestion, we are going fail. OKC does not have congestion. Here and Here.

I never appreciated how easy it was to get around in OKC until I moved to Austin--talk about going from one end of the spectrum to the other in terms of traffic. (I took note of the second link's ranking for Austin having the worst congestion of all metropolitan areas during rush hour.)

I really don't see the utility in a system like this for OKC. Traffic is light, the street grid is easy to navigate, and parking is cheap and relatively plentiful (I recognize the parking complaints, but again, it's relative--OKC fares much better than others). OKC was built to accommodate the automobile, and I don't think there's a bit of shame in embracing that. To be honest, I'm much more excited about the new crosstown than this project because I question the long-term viability of a rail system in OKC. The people may have "voted" for rail, but what will ridership be like when the novelty wears off? Maybe we should take another look at rail in the future if the Core to Shore plan comes to fruition and there's a substantial increase in downtown/midtown population (and population density) over the next decade. For now, I would rather see this time and money diverted toward overhauling the bus system.

[fuzzytoad]

Seriously? Methinks this is a WEEEE bit of an exaggeration. I drive I-235 from Edmond to downtown daily, and it generally only takes me 30-35 minutes from Memorial Road to my parking garage downtown, save for days like to day when there are accidents, and it tacked on about 10-15 more minutes.

seriously..

I leave from roughly danforth and broadway every morning at 7:45-8 and get to the federal building between 9 and 9:45.

it's usually after 2-3 am when I leave to go back home and that takes about 15-20 minutes, but the times I've had to leave at 5pm I've rarely ever gotten home before 6:30.

[fuzzytoad]

Um, Seattle(Sound transit) light rail is continuing to expand into the suburbs with Bellevue next on the list. Seeing as it hasn't been called a failure, nor have future connection projects to the suburbs been cancelled, I guess you don't really know what you're talking about.

"The Economist magazine recently said Seattle has the "worst transportation planning in North America". In addition, 420,000 signatures on an initiative (I-912) to repeal the new State gas tax were gathered in just 32 days. These should be wakeup calls for this region to fix fundamental problems in how we go about transportation planning.

Many who signed I-912 said they didn’t trust government to spend their tax dollars wisely and that there was a lack of accountability. Unfortunately, their concerns are well founded, and unless something is done angry citizens threaten not only the gas tax but also the RTID package of local tax increases needed to finish paying for the viaduct, 520 bridge and other critical projects. Remember a similar package (Referendum 51) was defeated in 2002 largely on the lack-of-trust issue. (a) Initiatives are crude remedies and do collateral damage, but a "starve the beast" approach is about the only way ordinary voters can hope to change things.

(a) Seattle Times, Jan 12, 2003. see How ST Abused….p.108 for the quote

It’s far, far better to address the causes of voter disillusionment before these issues come to vote. Lets take steps to ensure our tax dollars will be spent wisely, and spent achieving what people care about most; namely faster trips for auto and transit users alike. Lets also install accountability and rebuild trust.

There are two high priority targets for reform here at the regional level: Sound Transit (ST) and our official regional transportation-planning agency, the Puget Sound Regional Council (PSRC). ST’s a poster child for why people don’t trust government to spend tax dollars wisely, and PSRC’s asleep on the job.

Sound Transit is doing four major things wrong. First it has built a hugely wasteful commuter rail line called Sounder where every ride requires over $100 in taxpayer subsidies. (b) Second, it’s building a light rail system that will cost billions more than an equally effective bus rapid transit system. (c) Third it’s destroying trust by disseminating misleading information. (d) Forth, its management is –for all practical purposes --not accountable for results. Highlights follow but see Puget Sound Public Interest Transportation Forum: Seattle RTA Sound Transit light rail commuter rail bus monorail transit plan and CETA - Coalition for Effective Transportation Alternatives for details."

Also, Portland's streetcar system, from what I understand, has been a big success. They are also expanding streetcar and light rail.

FAIL.

"Unless they had gone out of their way on their junket, the visiting dignitaries were unlikely to hear the other side of the story: Portland's public transit has done nothing to relieve the region's growing congestion; its high cost has sparked a taxpayer revolt; the developments along the rail lines were themselves heavily subsidized; and those subsidies led a crafty cabal of ex-politicians and developers to milk the system for their own gain.

How do Portland-area residents feel about local light-rail projects? They voted against raising taxes to build more light-rail in 1998. In 2002, they voted against a ballot measure increasing neighborhood densities — as transit-oriented developments do. In 2004, they supported a property-rights measure that challenged the very foundations of Oregon's land-use planning system. Planners have ignored all these votes and are building light rail with tax-increment financing and other hidden tax increases."


yeah, I have no idea what I'm talking about.

[feconi]

yeah, those are pretty graphs and all.. They don't explain why it takes an hour to 2 hours to drive 14 miles on I-235 every weekday.

I realize that people like to throw out graphs that explain why real-world experiences aren't really real, but I'm confident that the voters in Oklahoma will see this for what it really is..

What a ridiculous exaggeration. I've made that drive hundreds of times and never experienced anywhere close to that bad of traffic in OKC, even during that painful widening project north of 63rd. It doesn't even take that long to go 14 miles on I-35 in Austin. Given the relative simplicity of acquiring data on traffic counts, flow, etc., I think the "pretty graphs" speak much more loudly than any "real-world experience."