Is there any real truth to the rumor that UCO is going division 1 in football

[Pete]

BTW, I looked and Tulsa was rated #86 by US News in 2017, and has now plummeted to #195.

They must be in dire financial straights to cut so many degrees, which they knew would slash their ranking. And in turn, the lower your rating, the lower the number of applicants and the more students you have to induce with financial aid.


Oral Roberts would probably be a goner already had David Green not bailed them out with a $70 million takeover.

[fortpatches]

BTW, I looked and Tulsa was rated #86 by US News in 2017, and has now plummeted to #195.

They must be in dire financial straights to cut so many degrees, which they knew would slash their ranking. And in turn, the lower your rating, the lower the number of applicants and the more students you have to induce with financial aid.


Oral Roberts would probably be a goner already had David Green not bailed them out with a $70 million takeover.

I mean, when I went there the law school was ranked like #74ish. Now it is #120. Griffin hasn't been that great for the law school - He has caused some pretty big issues with some of the faculty. I think there are only a couple of faculty still there from when I graduated less than 10 years ago.
Levitt cut so many of the degrees when she was interim provost (she was the Law School dean when I attended). She did an excellent job raising the law school in the rankings while she was Dean. I'm not really sure what was going on when she cut all those degree programs. Most of those degrees only had 1-2 students enrolled though, from my understanding and some did not have any students enrolled.

[PaddyShack]

^

The way private schools work is they give a ton of aid to the best students.

But they pay the bills by lesser students paying full freight.

I went to Pepperdine and you could tell who was who right from the jump (I was a scholarship kid).

Pepperdine is one of the Church of Christ schools, right? I have a lot of coworkers that went to either OC or Harding in Arkansas. Were you associated with the Church of Christ at that time, Pete?

[Pete]

Pepperdine is one of the Church of Christ schools, right? I have a lot of coworkers that went to either OC or Harding in Arkansas. Were you associated with the Church of Christ at that time, Pete?

Yes, it is Church of Christ, and no I am in no way affiliated.

Undergrads are required to attend weekly non-denominational convocation and that's about the only noticeable religious influence.

[Midtowner]

An article in today's Oklahoman highlights that UCO is ineed investing in its football program. The new coach has three DII championships under his belt. They note that UCO is not the kind of school joining D2 these days and that they are considering FCS or possibily joining some other larger D2 schools and splitting from D2 to form a new tier.

[Zuplar]

There is an article in the Oklahoman about this. I can't remember what the rules are with links to them, but here it is:

https://www.oklahoman.com/story/spor...2cmFHXI52VBwHA

[scottk]

An article in today's Oklahoman highlights that UCO is ineed investing in its football program. The new coach has three DII championships under his belt. They note that UCO is not the kind of school joining D2 these days and that they are considering FCS or possibily joining some other larger D2 schools and splitting from D2 to form a new tier.

UCO would benefit from the "payday" that follows with FCS teams that get scheduled when playing mainline conferences on the road for football. They would also benefit from national exposure from time to time on ESPN+/ESPN3 games that would get picked up.

[Midtowner]

There are at least a couple of schools like Tarleton State and Texas A&M Kingsville which are in UCO's former conference which have gone to the FCS and done just fine.

[Teo9969]

It boggles the mind as to how OKCU could be having money troubles, but they are. But the above comment is correct. Lots of these schoolsÂ’ bottom lines depend on a certain level of enrollment and when you charge undergrads 35k+ for degrees which will be of similar or better quality at state schools, youÂ’re not going to find many takers.

OKCU is hard to justify the expense for with just about any of its programs, same for TU, except they are still better deals than your for-profit schools, but most of those are gone nowadays.

Which back to the point of this thread, kind of bodes well for a school like UCO which is conveniently located and can charge less than a third of what these other schools charge for similar or better quality programs.

But that said, UCOÂ’s enrollment is down about 3,000 from what it was when I was an undergrad there.

Any private school aligned with a mainline Christian denomination is going to be struggling unless it already had a top-tier endowment. Church attendance is WWAAYYY down so I'm sure funds flowing into the private universities from that source are all but dried up.

[Midtowner]

Any private school aligned with a mainline Christian denomination is going to be struggling unless it already had a top-tier endowment. Church attendance is WWAAYYY down so I'm sure funds flowing into the private universities from that source are all but dried up.

I'm guessing funds didn't flow from those sources to these schools, but rather back to the religious organization. Oral Roberts didn't start a university for his health, he wanted another massive revenue stream. Same with their attempt at a medical center.

[Martin]

Same with their attempt at a medical center.

of course, it didn't work out... he went around faith-healing all of his potential customers. put himself right out of business.

[Midtowner]

of course, it didn't work out... he went around faith-healing all of his potential customers. put himself right out of business.

Funny anecdote about Oral--my dad used to be general counsel for the Highway Department (nwo Dept of Transportation) and was a trial division attorney for them before that. He was attending the groundbreaking of highway in Tulsa back in the 70s. Oral was there and making the rounds in the crowd. My father was probably a bit overserved at that point. Oral had some pocket hand warmers in his pockets to make his hands hot and was warming his hands then shaking folks' hands. When he got around to my father, my dad pulled his hands away and exclaimed "Oh my God, you just cured my hemorrhoids!" Oral though it was hilarious and a good time was had.

[Martin]

Funny anecdote about Oral--my dad used to be general counsel for the Highway Department (nwo Dept of Transportation) and was a trial division attorney for them before that. He was attending the groundbreaking of highway in Tulsa back in the 70s. Oral was there and making the rounds in the crowd. My father was probably a bit overserved at that point. Oral had some pocket hand warmers in his pockets to make his hands hot and was warming his hands then shaking folks' hands. When he got around to my father, my dad pulled his hands away and exclaimed "Oh my God, you just cured my hemorrhoids!" Oral though it was hilarious and a good time was had.

ha... that is awesome. and pretty cool that oral was a good sport about it.

[AFCM]

I don’t know if any of you were there or know about the results, but UCO just thumped second-ranked Central Missouri last night. Whether they’re ready for FCS remains to be seen, but Coach Dorrel has the Bronchos playing at a high level so far this season.

[Midtowner]

I don’t know if any of you were there or know about the results, but UCO just thumped second-ranked Central Missouri last night. Whether they’re ready for FCS remains to be seen, but Coach Dorrel has the Bronchos playing at a high level so far this season.

We'll see. They've been good at home for awhile. They haven't won a road game in a very long time.

But yeah, they invested in Coach Dorrel, and the only reason he made any sense as a hire and the only reason he'd move to Edmond would be, IMHO, a chance to be the guy who elevates the program to D1 and make that transition with them.

[Midtowner]

UCO is now ranked #25 in Division II.

[AFCM]

UCO is now ranked #25 in Division II.

Awesome! And what should help the Bronchos is that all of their ranked opponents this season are at home.

[bombermwc]

Would it be normal for a school to be a different division in one sport than another? Meaning football goes to FCS and basketball stays D2? I dont know how that works in terms of the rules. But I would say that UCO is not a D1 school in many of their programs both athletic and academic. It's a stretch to try to make yourself be something you're not, and to try to claim that UCO is on the same level as some of these D1 schools would be a dis-service to UCO and what it's purpose and focus is. You want D1, go to OU or OSU.

Part of why I ended up choosing OCU was because it was NAIA and not some large crazy thing trying to push like that. They had their brief push to try to become an NCAA school pre-pandemic, but I think that's effectively died out. UCO was my second choice but it was a little big for what I was looking for in a school. Trying to turn it into yet another large university would change it's identity. And frankly, they can't support that financially. You raise that price to what it costs to keep up and you're going to price out the kids that went there instead of OU or OSU because of the price difference. Suddenly, your student population is even less and your struggle has become a massive undertaking that you created for yourself.

Can you imagine OU playing UCO for one of those first of the season non-conference games? I don't care how good UCO's team is, it would be like another Tulsa game that just blows it out. Yeah they make money off of it, but what an embarrassment. How's that work for recruiting? Yeah, we played OU and lost by 60. And they are close enough they would take the band..and UCO's band....oh my gosh. It's a million miles from where it should be (Tulsa's too) if they think they want to be in that world.

[BoulderSooner]

Would it be normal for a school to be a different division in one sport than another? Meaning football goes to FCS and basketball stays D2? I dont know how that works in terms of the rules. But I would say that UCO is not a D1 school in many of their programs both athletic and academic. It's a stretch to try to make yourself be something you're not, and to try to claim that UCO is on the same level as some of these D1 schools would be a dis-service to UCO and what it's purpose and focus is. You want D1, go to OU or OSU.

Part of why I ended up choosing OCU was because it was NAIA and not some large crazy thing trying to push like that. They had their brief push to try to become an NCAA school pre-pandemic, but I think that's effectively died out. UCO was my second choice but it was a little big for what I was looking for in a school. Trying to turn it into yet another large university would change it's identity. And frankly, they can't support that financially. You raise that price to what it costs to keep up and you're going to price out the kids that went there instead of OU or OSU because of the price difference. Suddenly, your student population is even less and your struggle has become a massive undertaking that you created for yourself.

Can you imagine OU playing UCO for one of those first of the season non-conference games? I don't care how good UCO's team is, it would be like another Tulsa game that just blows it out. Yeah they make money off of it, but what an embarrassment. How's that work for recruiting? Yeah, we played OU and lost by 60. And they are close enough they would take the band..and UCO's band....oh my gosh. It's a million miles from where it should be (Tulsa's too) if they think they want to be in that world.

all sports would need to move to division 1 ..

[Swake]

Would it be normal for a school to be a different division in one sport than another? Meaning football goes to FCS and basketball stays D2? I dont know how that works in terms of the rules. But I would say that UCO is not a D1 school in many of their programs both athletic and academic. It's a stretch to try to make yourself be something you're not, and to try to claim that UCO is on the same level as some of these D1 schools would be a dis-service to UCO and what it's purpose and focus is. You want D1, go to OU or OSU.

Part of why I ended up choosing OCU was because it was NAIA and not some large crazy thing trying to push like that. They had their brief push to try to become an NCAA school pre-pandemic, but I think that's effectively died out. UCO was my second choice but it was a little big for what I was looking for in a school. Trying to turn it into yet another large university would change it's identity. And frankly, they can't support that financially. You raise that price to what it costs to keep up and you're going to price out the kids that went there instead of OU or OSU because of the price difference. Suddenly, your student population is even less and your struggle has become a massive undertaking that you created for yourself.

Can you imagine OU playing UCO for one of those first of the season non-conference games? I don't care how good UCO's team is, it would be like another Tulsa game that just blows it out. Yeah they make money off of it, but what an embarrassment. How's that work for recruiting? Yeah, we played OU and lost by 60. And they are close enough they would take the band..and UCO's band....oh my gosh. It's a million miles from where it should be (Tulsa's too) if they think they want to be in that world.

Lacrosse is the only sport I can think of that does that. Maybe hockey.

[scottk]

Lacrosse is the only sport I can think of that does that. Maybe hockey.

UCO Hockey was a club team, but did play Division I teams like OU, Iowa State, and Colorado. I'm sure that helped with attendance at the games.

[AFCM]

But I would say that UCO is not a D1 school in many of their programs both athletic and academic.

IÂ’m not sure what you mean by this. A university is categorized as D1 if itÂ’s in D1. The academic component has nothing to do with a universityÂ’s division status other than the obvious fact that it has to be an academic institution in order to compete in collegiate athletics. Now, IÂ’d agree that UCO isnÂ’t on the same level of research activity as many D1 universities that are R1 or R2, but research doesnÂ’t factor into how a program is classified with respect to athletic division.

It's a stretch to try to make yourself be something you're not, and to try to claim that UCO is on the same level as some of these D1 schools would be a dis-service to UCO and what it's purpose and focus is.

But if UCO is accepted as D1, then it would be D1. In other words, it wouldn’t be something that it’s not. But your response provokes the question: “How or why is UCO not compatible with D1 FCS?”

You want D1, go to OU or OSU.

IÂ’d argue that if someone wants D1 FBS P4, then he or she should go to OU or OSU. And if that person is okay with D1 FBS G5, then Tulsa would be a nice fit if the price is right. But if a student wants D1 FCS, then why canÂ’t he or she find a home at UCO?

Part of why I ended up choosing OCU was because it was NAIA and not some large crazy thing trying to push like that.

To each his/her own. Everyone has different values.

UCO was my second choice but it was a little big for what I was looking for in a school. Trying to turn it into yet another large university would change its identity.

UCO is already a relatively large university; itÂ’s the third largest in the state in terms of enrollment. However, moving to FCS would simply be a change in athletic classification.

And frankly, they can't support that financially. You raise that price to what it costs to keep up and you're going to price out the kids that went there instead of OU or OSU because of the price difference.

I’m not sure what you mean by this. UCO currently charges students $8.88/credit hour in student fees for athletics. Could the fees increase if UCO were to go FCS? I suppose that it’s possible, but I don’t see how the increase would “price out the kids that went there instead of OU or OSU” since the biggest difference between UCO and OU/OSU is in cost of tuition.

Suddenly, your student population is even less and your struggle has become a massive undertaking that you created for yourself.

This assumes that students would necessarily be priced out of attending due to increases in student fees. It also precludes the possibility of increased enrollment due to the university going D1. What if some students want the D1 experience without having to pay OU/OSU/TU tuition and fees? If this is the case, then wouldnÂ’t going D1 help UCOÂ’s enrollment?

Can you imagine OU playing UCO for one of those first of the season non-conference games?

Heck yeah! It would be great!

I don't care how good UCO's team is, it would be like another Tulsa game that just blows it out.

It would be worse than Tulsa, but thatÂ’s okay with me.

Yeah they make money off of it, but what an embarrassment.

Why would the loss be an embarrassment? FCS programs are supposed to lose to FBS programs, especially P4 institutions.

How's that work for recruiting? Yeah, we played OU and lost by 60.

Being D1 would boost recruiting, even if it means losing to the likes of OU and OSU, because most student-athletes would prefer to play D1 instead of D2.

[April in the Plaza]

All things being equal, UCO becoming a D1 school would drive increased enrollment. There’s really no way to argue the other side of it.

https://www.tarleton.edu/president/2...llment-record/

[AFCM]

All things being equal, UCO becoming a D1 school would drive increased enrollment. ThereÂ’s really no way to argue the other side of it.

https://www.tarleton.edu/president/2...llment-record/

You might be right.

North Alabama joined FCS in 2022 and is now seeing record enrollment.

https://www.una.edu/pressroom/2023/0...0Fall%25202023.

Same for Incarnate Word (joined in 2017):

https://news4sanantonio.com/amp/news...imbed-students

And Abilene Christian (joined in 2017):

https://www.reporternews.com/story/n...s%20enrollment.

Houston Christian (joined in 2014):

https://hc.edu/news-and-events/2024/...st%206%20years.

Mercer (joined in 2013):

https://den.mercer.edu/mercer-announ...ll-enrollment/

And so on. I havenÂ’t looked at all of the data, but the sample that I reviewed suggests that moving to D1 is at least strongly correlated with increased enrollment. Are increasing numbers driving the move to D1, or is the move to D1 driving increasing enrollment? IÂ’m not smart enough to tease out causation here, but there does appear to at least be a correlation, based upon the samples that I assessed.

[Midtowner]

UCO's enrollment is still waaay down. In 2012, it was in the 17,000 range, so that would be outstanding for the school. Athletics in Oklahoma are a big deal and can really help forge a school's distinct identity. I also think Todd Lamb is going to want to make his mark there. They spent some money and hired a coach who has experience coaching division 2 championships.

But comparing UCO football to OU football and suggesting UCO going to FCS would guage their succsess as compared to one of the historic top 5 college football programs in the country is pretty absurd. UCO would be doing very, very well to even be in the same league as Tulsa, which is usually a pretty decent mid-major program.