Odot

[catch22]

Also, you are saying to allow the rail traffic to define demand. Demand is extremely fluid and will take the easiest method.

If rail is easy, people will take rail. If driving and parking is easy, people will drive. But, you can't have both, because if one is more easy to use than the other by a wide margin, the other will not be used.

[Plutonic Panda]

No I don't think it should define demand. I think it should give a general idea how many people will use LR instead of the highways. Grand Central Station(I think it called) in NYC is getting a massive expansion and already has over 1 million a day in and out. Almost twice the pop. of OKC. I'm sure there are people that would use highways if not for the rail transit. Instead of building these massive highways without a light-rail, I think they should build the light-rail first and then go back to building the highways. Thats all.

[ou48A]

As I said, the area in Dallas being discussed has been under construction and rebuilding mode for an equally long time. Neither state had planned for the current needs when the freeways were first built. The needs and construction designs and techniques have changed considerably over that 35 year period.

Discussions about a project are an entirely different matter that the physical disruptions that are caused during the actually construction.

The physical disruptions of the construction are more damaging to area business and to commuters than mere discussions. In this case we are talking about 35 years of physical construction compared a lengthy discussion. There is no reasonable comparison on the impact to ordinary people

We have a moral obligation IMHO to build our projects in a fiduciary way but also as quickly as they can practically done while still being fiscally responsible.

[ljbab728]

Discussions about a project are an entirely different matter that the physical disruptions that are caused during the actually construction.

The physical disruptions of the construction are more damaging to area business and to commuters than mere discussions. In this case we are talking about 35 years of physical construction compared a lengthy discussion. There is no reasonable comparison on the impact to ordinary people

We have a moral obligation IMHO to build our projects in a fiduciary way but also as quickly as they can practically done while still being fiscally responsible.

You were making comparisons of the projects in the two cities. Neither of the areas have been under continous construction for 35 years. There have been no more disruptions in OKC than in Dallas even with the many different projects in both cities.

I have no disagreement with your second point.

[ou48A]

You were making comparisons of the projects in the two cities. Neither of the areas have been under continous construction for 35 years. There have been no more disruptions in OKC than in Dallas even with the many different projects in both cities.

I have no disagreement with your second point.

If I recall correctly the reconstruction of I-35 in OKC from I-40 south started in about 1985 and that it will be around 2020 when everything is done. I-35 OKC hasn’t been worked on 100% of that time but clearly and without question the length of total disruption to the people has been longer in OKC on I-35 than it will be with the Dallas project on the video.


But regardless of that, my main point is that we need to find a way to speed our projects up……
How do we get that done?

[Plutonic Panda]

If I recall correctly the reconstruction of I-35 in OKC from I-40 south started in about 1985 and that it will be around 2020 when everything is done. I-35 OKC hasn’t been worked on 100% of that time but clearly and without question the length of total disruption to the people has been longer in OKC on I-35 than it will be with the Dallas project on the video.


But regardless of that, my main point is that we need to find a way to speed our projects up……
How do we get that done?

I think over time as our tax base grows. I think the time has come to start planning for widening I-35 to 8 lanes. It is always backed up during rush hour and nearly at a standstill.

[ljbab728]

If I recall correctly the reconstruction of I-35 in OKC from I-40 south started in about 1985 and that it will be around 2020 when everything is done. I-35 OKC hasn’t been worked on 100% of that time but clearly and without question the length of total disruption to the people has been longer in OKC on I-35 than it will be with the Dallas project on the video.


But regardless of that, my main point is that we need to find a way to speed our projects up……
How do we get that done?

The OKC project has not been just one project or plan that has taken 35 years to complete. It has been numerous separate projects or plans which is exactly the same as the Dallas freeways. Your comparison doesn't work.

I wish I had an answer for your last question, but I don't.

[ljbab728]

I think over time as our tax base grows. I think the time has come to start planning for widening I-35 to 8 lanes. It is always backed up during rush hour and nearly at a standstill.

You're contradicting yourself now, PluPan. You were just saying a few posts ago that we should have light rail before any more highway projects are started.

[Plutonic Panda]

You're contradicting yourself now, PluPan. You were just saying a few posts ago that we should have light rail before any more highway projects are started.

Yeah, realistically that will never happen. I think that is what should happen. But, I understand it won't. So, realistically thinking, we need to find a way to speed up our projects I agree with that and also happen to think to time in nearing(arguably already here) to begin plans to widen I-15 to 8 lanes.

[ljbab728]

Actually I think we might see light rail along that corridor before I35 is expanded to 8 lanes.

[Plutonic Panda]

Well they could do it as one project.

[ljbab728]

Well they could do it as one project.

The Oklahoma River could turn into chocolate tomorrow too. LOL

[Plutonic Panda]

Hey, I'm just throwing ideas out there.

[Just the facts]

Also, you are saying to allow the rail traffic to define demand. Demand is extremely fluid and will take the easiest method.

If rail is easy, people will take rail. If driving and parking is easy, people will drive. But, you can't have both, because if one is more easy to use than the other by a wide margin, the other will not be used.

Several cities now prohibit any new parking except for residential if rail based mass transit is available. The best way to reduce congestion is to not provide a place to park. Of course, this requires alternatives to be available.

[ou48A]

The OKC project has not been just one project or plan that has taken 35 years to complete. It has been numerous separate projects or plans which is exactly the same as the Dallas freeways. Your comparison doesn't work.

I wish I had an answer for your last question, but I don't.

I have known they were different contracts, but to the public that matters very little.
But it sure seems like Stemmons I - 35 has not been torn up creating delays anywhere as much as our I-35.


Finding ways to speed up our projects will probably require reform via legislation by our states elected leaders?
It needs to become a priority, but somebody would probably need to give up some of their power to control projects?

[ou48A]

Actually I think we might see light rail along that corridor before I35 is expanded to 8 lanes.

The plan that I have heard talked about would roughly follow I -35. But it would not be light rail, It would be commuter rail.
The plan is to double track the line. The plan calls for Norman to have 2 stops. One at OU and another on the north edge of town near Tecumseh Street.

I am not sure but there are so many people who live in far east Norman and south of Norman that a stop near Highway 9 might be worth consideration.

[Just the facts]

If all commuter rail does is making living all over the southern plains easier I would prefer they not even build it. You shouldn't have to drive to a train station. By making remote stations you ensure that the primary use is in-bound in the morning and out-bound in the afternoon. We can't afford to keep wasting transportation dollars like that.

[Dubya61]

If all commuter rail does is making living all over the southern plains easier I would prefer they not even build it. You shouldn't have to drive to a train station.

JTF, I agree with you a LOT, and could almost qualify as one of your acolytes, but this last comment makes me mad. Why can't I live on the fringes and use the rails without having to park in front of someone's house? Shall we just put a wall around the city? I know you've thought this through a LOT more than I, but I pay taxes in OKC, too. Can't I use the mass transit?
OK. Fire away. Afterall, I was angry when typing this.

[ou48A]

If all commuter rail does is making living all over the southern plains easier I would prefer they not even build it. You shouldn't have to drive to a train station. By making remote stations you ensure that the primary use is in-bound in the morning and out-bound in the afternoon. We can't afford to keep wasting transportation dollars like that.

But yet people have been driving to the train station in many locations, for many years.
Thousands of people drive to the park and rides of DART’s light rail system every day.. What’s the difference?

[Just the facts]

Dubya61 - let's stick with Norman first. Why can't people drive to downtown Norman to a station? This would expand the hours of use. As for Choctaw, a station at Main St would be great. They could even put in a parking garage if they like. There is nothing wrong with connecting downtown Choctaw to the rest of central Oklahoma. If we are going to build stations let's do it in places where TOD can have the best impact and promote walkability at both ends of the trip.

[Dar405301]

isn't it in the state's constitution that oklahoma cannot borrow money to fund highway construction? i have never heard of that in other states and that is what allows the dallas region to constantly widen their roadways. i'm not a bog fan of incurring debt, but a little bit wouldn't hurt if it's really necessary.

[ou48A]

Dubya61 - let's stick with Norman first. Why can't people drive to downtown Norman to a station? This would expand the hours of use. As for Choctaw, a station at Main St would be great. They could even put in a parking garage if they like. There is nothing wrong with connecting downtown Choctaw to the rest of central Oklahoma. If we are going to build stations let's do it in places where TOD can have the best impact and promote walkability at both ends of the trip.

Most people who commute to OKC from Norman live on Norman’s north or west sides. For thousands of these people it would take a minimum of 20 minutes to drive to downtown Norman. The downtown Norman parking is very poor for daily commute. By the time most people driveto downtown, wait on the train and actually arrive at their end train destination they could have driven in about ½ the time.

Projected ridership does not justify a downtown Norman station. It would be an extremely poor expenditure of very limited public that would be far better utilized someplace else.…. The planers know this…. That’s why the plans call for a bus / train station at OU and a park and ride station on the north side of Norman. They know this is where the most amount of people in Norman would use the train. A small bus could easily service the downtown Norman area from the train stations.

But I do like the idea of studding the feasibility of a park and ride station near HY-9

[Just the facts]

So like I said, if the goal of commuter rail is just to make sprawl more tolerable then why build it at all?

[ou48A]

So like I said, if the goal of commuter rail is just to make sprawl more tolerable then why build it at all?

Actually it would encourage in fill.
Over time living closer to a train station becomes more attractive for many commuters. It a big improvement over what we have.
Dart has park and ride stations in areas that are not built up yet people drive to them all the time.

[ljbab728]

Kerry's ideal world is one were everyone walks or rides a bicycle everywhere.