Streetcar

[Kerry]

Why?

While I can see a benefit if both exist, why is it useless if local doesn't? That's like saying you have to have small planes or helicopters to get from the airport to your final destination. Obviously you don't. You get another means of transport (bus, taxi, rental etc).

I guess if you are looking at HSR replacing a airplane then I see your point. But I don't think that is the intent of HSR. HSR is designed to be part of a cohesive mass transit system. If it was up to me HSR would only make stops at stations that were connected to a local rail system. If Norman wants a stop on an HSR line they better put a trolley through downtown Norman or something.

[SkyWestOKC]

Aviation is the largest mass transit system ever devised -- albeit, private. You can get to any point on the globe within 24 hours of when you left. And most of the time within half of that time. There will be a percentage of replacement of aviation by HSR.

[Kerry]

HSR will replace most flights that last less than 2 hours, unless they are connecting flights. But then HSR to compete with the family car. Transit is a crowded market.

[Hutch]

Kerry does have a point about getting the HSR cart before the rail transit system horse. And it applies equally to building a commuter rail system without first having a local light-rail or modern streetcar system already in place. The main culprit in getting the cart before the horse, whether it be HSR or commuter rail, is often due to the sudden availability of federal money and the common knee-jerk reaction of states and cities to try to quickly get their share, whether or not they are really prepared for it.

It's the middle and upper-middle class who predominate modern rail transit ridership, and unfortunately some of those have a real aversion to riding buses. If they can drive to a local station or a park and ride...take a commuter train to downtown...and then take light rail to within reasonable walking distance of their destination, they'll do it. If they have to transfer to a bus or take a taxi or walk a long way, they'll just drive instead.

It's difficult enough as it is to muster the public, political and business support to initiate a rail transit system. The last thing you want to do is initiate a system that falls short of expected ridership because you rushed and got the cart before the horse. That can cause some real support problems for expanding or even continuing the system.

Salt Lake City had their TRAX light-rail system in place before they started developing their Frontrunner commuter rail system, which has been very successful. Denver first established a successful local light-rail system, and now they are developing the FasTracks commuter rail system. The State of New Mexico on the other hand built the Rail Runner commuter rail system first using federal money and without first developing supporting local light-rail in Albuquerque or Santa Fe. Recently they have experienced some ridership issues as some of the early patrons decided it was easier to drive their car than to try to figure out how to get to where they were going once they got off the train.

We're fortunate to be able to fund and develope a local light-rail streetcar system in advance of commuter rail. If we get the the streetcar system design and hub location right, when the commuter trains get going the entire system should be a success. And once the whole system is in place, we'll be primed for successfully integrating intercity HSR.

[OKC@heart]

The good thing is that the time involved in securing the funding and manufacturing of the High Speed trains etc, will provide ample time to get these systems in place prior to it really being an issue. We know that even if the surprised all of us and ordered the street cars next year, that it would be a few years to get them manufactured and delivered, plus the time of getting the lines installed and the Hub located and built. So the earliest that we could ever hope to see the street car system go online with its first 7 miles of track would likely be 4 years, and likely I would expect it further out than that. I really hope I am wrong and would love to be surprised with some serious initiative taking by our local leaders in placing the order for the Street cars in advance, but will not hold my breath.

[Kerry]

Of all MAPS III projects - the street car has to come first. It is a development anchor and few people are going to invest in new downtown housing/hotels/offices until they know where the rails are going to go. Once rail is laid development will be attracted to it.

[Urban Pioneer]

As of right now, most streetcar manufacturers can produce cars in 3 - 4 years. The average engineering design process and resulting construction period is 3 - 5 Years.

Arguably, the most pressing reason regarding finalizing a design and pressing for the start of the Project is to capture direct savings in the 2nd half of Project 180. Project 180 is making as many provisions as they can without knowing an exact route. Knowing exactly where it will be going would certainly direct resources more effectively and benefit both projects.

[okclee]

It sounds as if the city now has the Streetcar route as the first order of Maps3 business. Especially with the Project 180 putting extra pressure on getting a route finalized.

Am I correct making this assumption?

[HOT ROD]

keep in mind, Salt Lake got their TRAX due to support from Oklahoma's very own Senator Istook. And also SLC had got the Olympics, so they wanted some pet Pork projects to show off (and probably legitimately transport visitors, what little of them there were). ....

You dont need light rail in order for Commuter Rail to work. We had Commuter Rail here in Seattle for many years before we got light rail (just last year). Don't mix or confuse the two. Commuter rail is for commuters, has very few stops and the stops it has are usually very large parn n rides or city centers. Therefore, CR doesn't need density, it connects communities. Light rail transit is a step below that with more frequent stops and generally in city center and higher density areas. Streetcars are a step below that, with very frequent stops and usually streetcars help build density. OKC does need streetcars, because it will help densify the city center and inner city while also connecting key employment and entertainment centers in OKC's rather spread out inner city.

OKC doesn't have the density in the inner city to justify light rail. There is NO reason for OKC to need a light rail transit before or even to support Commuter Rail. Commuter Rail would just transport COMMUTERS from the suburbs into downtown, just like it does in every other city. However, I could see the need for streetcars in conjunction or shortly after a Commuter Rail implementation (and this mostly to funnel workers to and from downtown and the capitol, Saint Anthony, and Oklahoma Health Center. There might also need to be a Commuter Rail stop and a streetcar or bus shuttle network at 63rd Street to support that high employment and entertainment area too.

But an OKC light rail transit line would be a white elephant at this point, and maybe so for the next 30-40 years. ... until the density (residential, employment, entertainment destinations) become much more dense in the inner city.

Let's keep the dreams realistic and dont confuse the technology.

[Hutch]

Agreed...I didn't mean to suggest OKC needed a DART or TRAX light rail system before commuter rail or even at all. My point was commuter rail systems are much more effective and embraced by the public if you have some form of modern street car or light rail system in place that is connected to the hub and provides for transfer service to get riders closer to their final destination in and around the CBD. OKC's existing rail network is laid out well for a commuter rail system. We don't need to spend $2 billion building light rail between Norman and OKC and Edmond when we can develop effective commuter rail transit at a fraction of the cost.

[betts]

My only question would be how amenable the Santa Fe is to allowing commuter rail on their lines. I know they run a lot of trains north and south daily, and it seems to me as if rail traffic is increasing. Has commuter rail sharing lines with freight worked in other cities with lines as busy as this one?

[Hutch]

The BNSF line does handle a lot of freight traffic. I don't have any information on how it compares to other commuter systems that share trackage with freight trains. I do know that the entire length of the BNSF line from Norman to Edmond would be double- tracked as part of a commuter rail system. That would be two main lines as well as third track siding areas for trains to pass. With that infrastructure, the relatively short distances the commuter trains would travel, and modern satellite tracking technology that is in use, I would imagine it would not be too difficult to coordinate commuter train schedules with significant freight volume to avoid traffic conflicts. As far as being amenable, you can be sure BNSF is already preparing for the that day to come. They are well aware of the fact that the OKC to Texas border portion of the line is part of an effort by the State of Oklahoma involving double-tracking, improved signalization and other upgrades as part of the development of that corridor for Emerging High-Speed Rail, as well as improved Amtrak service. Here's a clear indication of BNSF's thinkng. The City of Norman made the decision several years ago to build a grade-separated crossing where Robinson Street crosses the BSNF line. At that point there is a single main line and a siding track. Robinson will be reconstucted below-grade and pass under those rail lines. The designs were complete, funding authorized and approval given by BNSF a couple of years ago. The City was preparing to begin construction at the end of 2009, when BNSF contacted the City and told them they were now requiring the rail overpass to be widened to accomodate a third track. I don't think its a coincidence that the change in design requirements by BNSF came at a time when ODOT was applying for federal HSR funding and ACOG was applying for federal TIGER grants to double track our future commuter rail system. However, to get to the point of actually obtaining approval from BNSF to operate a commuter rail system will require extensive negotiations and certain financial commitments, including costs for infrastructure improvements and standby time charges among other things.

[Kerry]

Keep in mind that if it is true commuter rail the trains don't run all day. There will probably be 2 or 3 trains inbound in the morning and 2 or 3 trains outbound in the afternoon.

http://www.acerail.com/ridingace/trainschedules.aspx

Here is a sample schedule.


Train 110 leaves Norman at 6AM, Train 210 leaves Edmond at 6AM

Train 110 and Train 210 Arrive in downtown OKC at 6:30AM.

Train 110 arrives in Edmond at 7AM, Train 210 arrives in Norman at 7AM

Engines moved to opposite end of trains.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Train 110 (Norman northbound) becomes Train 220 (the second Edmond southbound)
Train 210 (Edmond southbound) becomes Train 120 (the second Norman northbound)

Train 120 leaves Norman at 7AM, Train 220 leaves Edmond at 7AM

Train 120 and 220 arrive in downtown OKC at 7:30AM

Train 120 arrives in Edmond at 8AM, Train 220 arrives in Norman at 8AM

Engines moved to opposite end of trains.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Train 120 (second Norman northbound) becomes Train 230 (the third Edmond southbound)
Train 220 (second Edmond southbound) becomes Train 130 (the third Norman northbound)

Train 130 leaves Norman at 8AM, Train 230 leaves Edmond at 8AM

Train 130 and 230 arrive in downtown OKC at 8:30AM

Train 130 arrives in Edmond at 9AM, Train 230 arrives in Norman at 9AM

Engines moved to opposite end of trains and wait for afternoon schedule using train numbers 610, 620, 630, 710, 720, and 730

[Platemaker]

When I lived in Norman, I took the #24 bus into downtown everyday. There are three buses that leave Norman to Downtown every morning... and every seat is occupied trust me. We would need at least three commuter trains to handle those passenger and the surge of new riders that would undoubtedly choose a train over a bus.

[OKCisOK4me]

How long before we can begin to see ANYTHING tangible with respect to MAPS3? Not complaining, just curious.

This very question is the whole reason I hardly visit this thread. It's all based on speculation and I do hope that when we start seeing concrete evidence of The Modern Streetcar and Commuter Transit Project in MAPS 3, that we'll have an actual thread with articles and pictures!

[HOT ROD]

very good point Kerry. Most Commuter Rail systems run only one way, into the center city in the morning and out of the center city at night.

That's how it is in Seattle, Trains start in Tacoma in the South and Everett in the North and run into Seattle. I think there is also a train or two that run from Seattle to Tacoma in the morning, but downtown Tacoma is a much smaller employment center than downtown Seattle (obviously, haha). Trains run the other way in the late afternoon.

Only the biggest cities (Chicago, in particular), has Commuter Rail trains running both ways AND all through the day and night. Chicago's Metra is really like another subway network, alongside the actual L.

Like Kerry mentioned, I'd imagine OKC's CR system would be one or two trains to start, one hour apart perhaps to cover the morning and afternoon rush. As more passengers come on board, then more trains could be added. Maybe the city could also run a "Lunch" schedule, have one train going the opposite directions.

But I think CR in OKC is definitely doable and could/should begin asap (particularly the Guthrie/Edmond-Downtown and Purcell/Norman-Downtown N-S routes). Interesting question, would the Norman-Downtown route run into downtown in the morning, out of downtown at night? Or would it be a line from the beginning, that would have trains go in both directions (but just in the rush hours)? Also, the MWC/Tinker - Downtown; would it also be a both direction rush route from the start, too?

Interesting questions. ....

[Kerry]

ut I think CR in OKC is definitely doable and could/should begin asap (particularly the Guthrie/Edmond-Downtown and Purcell/Norman-Downtown N-S routes). Interesting question, would the Norman-Downtown route run into downtown in the morning, out of downtown at night? Or would it be a line from the beginning, that would have trains go in both directions (but just in the rush hours)? Also, the MWC/Tinker - Downtown; would it also be a both direction rush route from the start, too?

Interesting questions. ....

If you look at my sample schedule there would be trains running from downtown OKC in the morning on the half hour going back to Norman and Edmond. If you don't reuse each train ever hour then you have to buy more trains. I looked at the ACE line from Stockton to San Jose and they make three runs in each direction. Due to the distance, all three trains are on the tracks at the same time so they can't be reused. CalTrain which goes from San Jose to San Francisco does recycle each train so they have service going north and south. If we didn't do inbound and outbound service then it would take 6 trains to do what 2 can do using my method but deliver only half the number of trips. I prefer my method.

[Platemaker]

I'm really liking Denver's Union Station Plan as a model for Santa Fe...

[HOT ROD]

yes, it is a good plan but look at the area involved. There's not that much room at Santa Fe.

[Platemaker]

Well the train platform at Santa Fe would be up top on the elevated section. There is room up there... they are actually five tracks up there. I made this from about the same height as the Denver aerial.

[HOT ROD]

if I recall correct, Denver's doesn't integrate bus but it does integrate Light Rail and Amtrak. It might also do CR now, but didn't when I lived there.

So once again, Santa Fe would get us RAIL (like it already does) but I don't see where it could be truly intermodal given the lack of space. I could see the streetcar coming to the front/street, with Commuter Rail, Amtrak, future HSR, and future state rail having platforms aka Denver with Freight by-pass tracks. But where would future light rail come and also transit bus, local and intercity bus?

But again - yes, I can see Santa Fe giving us a start and could even be done with the $10M budget plus if the state/feds could match. We could build the patforms to the elevated section and lay track, and I'd hope we could build some parking garages in the existing lots, with retail on the first level.

Maybe we would just have separate rail and bus terminals in downtown OKC. ... It is NICE to have an urban build-up area with this 'problem' I admit.

[stdennis]

This is santa fe station with all the buildings from the denver proposal minus the two in the middle that look like hotels. plus another for bus and another that could be a garage or lightrail... the two sides of reno could be connected on two levels one above ground and one at track level. plus a regular ped crossing at street level. its a hack job and would be better but i want the individual buildings to be seen. I also added onto santefe by mirroring the other side.

[HOT ROD]

looks good st

Im not sure how realistic, but I think splitting the functions across reno could work very well.

[Spartan]

Jeff, I agree with your assessment that the Cox isn't going anywhere and shouldn't go anywhere. With that said, what do you think of the possibility for integration between the two? Ignoring EKG which could be gotten rid of (and probably should be since it was never originally in the grid), what would you say about joining Santa Fe and the Cox into a combined structure by bridging the two, using the Cox parking as taxi bays, having the trains directly linked to the meeting rooms, and sort of experimenting with a prototype of convention center and transit hub in one type-structure. That would certainly be an interesting way to reposition the Cox Center in anticipation of it becoming OKC's #2 convention facility..

[Kerry]

COX is going to have to come down. It is the logical solution.