OKC Regional Transit System

[Rover]

Thank you captain obvious and thank you for clarifying!!!! Oh geez, what could be with millions of dollars of public infrastructure and subsidies!!! We are better off subsidizing memorial and downtown. Sarcasam

Btw, Oaks is at neither Memorial nor downtown and wasn’t subsidized. There was organic demand and the developers decided on quality and style of development based on good business planning. Maybe Crossroads could find a developer to do the same there instead of pie in the sky plans and wishes. The Last few owners of Crossroads didnt have well planned development and they keep failing. Maybe it shouldnt be forced to be something unsupportable, either by public or private invest.

[Teo9969]

Yeah, not having a stop at Crossroads is criminal.

[baralheia]

Btw, Oaks is at neither Memorial nor downtown and wasn’t subsidized. There was organic demand and the developers decided on quality and style of development based on good business planning. Maybe Crossroads could find a developer to do the same there instead of pie in the sky plans and wishes. The Last few owners of Crossroads didnt have well planned development and they keep failing. Maybe it shouldnt be forced to be something unsupportable, either by public or private invest.

TOD is a development tool. Were a stop planned at Crossroads, there would be more incentive and opportunity for new developers to come in with fresh ideas to transform the area into something better.

[BoulderSooner]

TOD is a development tool. Were a stop planned at Crossroads, there would be more incentive and opportunity for new developers to come in with fresh ideas to transform the area into something better.

unless the industrial / trash dump / and demographics were to change that is not a great spot for a TOD spot ..

[Teo9969]

unless the industrial / trash dump / and demographics were to change that is not a great spot for a TOD spot ..

At a minimum it's the most sensible place for a connection to Tinker. It's a slam dunk spot for a stop.

[BoulderSooner]

At a minimum it's the most sensible place for a connection to Tinker. It's a slam dunk spot for a stop.

the most sensible place to connect to tinker is the Sante Fe station

[baralheia]

unless the industrial / trash dump / and demographics were to change that is not a great spot for a TOD spot ..

You don't think that a massive plot of land that could easily be cleared for a mixed-use development centered around a fixed transit stop - at the intersection of two major interstate highways no less - is not a great TOD opportunity? Come now.

TOD is used to incentivize what you *want* to see in an area. And that area needs a helping hand up in the worst way.

[Plutonic Panda]

You don't think that a massive plot of land that could easily be cleared for a mixed-use development centered around a fixed transit stop - at the intersection of two major interstate highways no less - is not a great TOD opportunity? Come now.

TOD is used to incentivize what you *want* to see in an area. And that area needs a helping hand up in the worst way.

It could be, but then again Boulder sooner does have a valid point. I don’t usually agree with him on much but he is absolutely correct in this instance in my opinion and I don’t mean to sit on a high horse here it’s just my own opinion. But I really don’t see how this site could be developed into something mixed use. This will have to be a suburban low density development. I think something like a medieval times or something like that to draw people would be a complete hit. But there has to be a big draw. Something to attract people here because otherwise this area quite frankly is a joke.

[Laramie]

TOD is a development tool. Were a stop planned at Crossroads, there would be more incentive and opportunity for new developers to come in with fresh ideas to transform the area into something better.

^ THIS^

A Transit-Oriented Development spot (TOD) for an area like Crossroads Mall, IMO could kick-start development and transform that area. Despite the Dumpsite near the area, it's far enough away from the mall that it shouldn't be a concern.

A transit development there would be a plus for OKC.

[unfundedrick]

^ THIS^

A Transit-Oriented Development spot (TOD) for an area like Crossroads Mall, IMO could kick-start development and transform that area. Despite the Dumpsite near the area, it's far enough away from the mall that it shouldn't be a concern.

A transit development there would be a plus for OKC.

I visited Crossroads often when it was thriving. The dump site was there then and I never gave it a second thought.

[SEMIweather]

The landfill should not be a huge issue here because OKC rarely gets east-northeast winds.

[baralheia]

It could be, but then again Boulder sooner does have a valid point. I don’t usually agree with him on much but he is absolutely correct in this instance in my opinion and I don’t mean to sit on a high horse here it’s just my own opinion. But I really don’t see how this site could be developed into something mixed use. This will have to be a suburban low density development. I think something like a medieval times or something like that to draw people would be a complete hit. But there has to be a big draw. Something to attract people here because otherwise this area quite frankly is a joke.

Whether you keep and repurpose the mall or knock it down, there's still a lot of space to plan a development around a transit stop. I think the commuter rail stop would likely need to be built first (or at least the RTA needs to commit to it) and then you grow the rest of the development around that. I'm not a developer myself, but from a layman's standpoint I'd think a good place to start would be apartments over retail clustered close to the station, maybe with a park or plaza right in front of the station in the middle of everything. Put the station close to SE 66th St / Crossroads Blvd, where it crosses the train tracks - this road already hosts the 14 bus route, so it would easily tie in with Embark too. Santa Fe South and Dove Science Academy are both within this development area, which would help draw families to the area - and the transit stop would also enable greater access for students living farther away. The old AMC theater (ex Cinemark) could be brought back to life with more modern amenities. Pharmacorr currently offices out of the old dollar theater (that used to be a General Cinemas back in the day), and with the amount of land here, an office building or three would easily be doable... and proximity to transit would be a benefit to the employees that office there. There's definitely room here for some destination retail - something like an Ikea or Medieval Times, etc. Ideally that would be close to the highway intersection for maximum visibility, like if they could convince Dove Science Academy to sell (or offer a land swap deal).

Honestly, there's a ton of unrealized opportunity here that could really help revitalize the Crossroads area. It doesn't take much to imagine what could be, since there's so much raw land and so many empty parking lots here.

[josefromtulsa]

I am glad others are seeing what I see.

In terms of connectivity this land is really separated from the surrounding areas due to its proximity to railroads and the interstate. What this means is you wont have very much interaction. This area is almost like an island of sorts with only 3 "bridges". (Pole, 66th, and Crossroads Blvd).

A developer with deep pockets and TOD experience could almost make a second city center out of this. Its 5 miles to Downtown, Tinker, Will Rogers, and 10 miles from OU...

[Teo9969]

the most sensible place to connect to tinker is the Sante Fe station

The spur to Tinker literally happens at Crossroads....why would you force Norman originators to go to Santa Fe and then tread half of the journey back to go to Tinker?

OKC needs to give up right now on transit if it doesn't establish transfer stations outside of downtown. Crossroads is one of the Top 3 points for a transfer station.

[citywokchinesefood]

I feel like developing different sections of the parking lot and eventually the demolishing the entire mall and turning the area into apartments with internal courtyards for greenspaces and structured parking. You could eventually have some first floor retail and restaurants you would have room and the area demographics for a grocery store. In 20-25 years, you could have a fairly walkable community in the area. Just do it in phases taking different parts of the massive parking lot that are not being utilized. I think it is an awful idea to keep trying to renovate that mall.

[baralheia]

The spur to Tinker literally happens at Crossroads....why would you force Norman originators to go to Santa Fe and then tread half of the journey back to go to Tinker?

OKC needs to give up right now on transit if it doesn't establish transfer stations outside of downtown. Crossroads is one of the Top 3 points for a transfer station.

The RTA has already adopted a transit plan that specifies the East Corridor shall be BRT... but because I'm a nerd that loves rail, let's go down this rabbit hole. So.... The main problem with using the Flynn Industrial Spur for a rail-based connection to Tinker is that the spur was mainly designed to service the old GM plant. Thanks to Tinker taking over the plant, the tracks now end on the eastern embankment of the bridge across Air Depot before they enter the Tinker perimeter fence. Between the buildings on either side of the ROW and the fact that Air Depot dips down to go underneath the railroad here, it would be very difficult to transition to a streetcar from here to get up to Gott Gate at SE 59th and Air Depot. I'm honestly unsure how Tinker would want to interface with the transit network, but a wild, uneducated guess would be that they'd prefer those on foot to enter via Tinker Gate on the north side of the base, since the visitor center is there too. This would need to rely on the original idea of a streetcar that branched off from the Bricktown loop heading east along Reno to Air Depot, then south to the gate. The only place that I could see where a streetcar terminal stop could be shoehorned in would be the western corner of Tinker Bicentennial Park, immediately north of I-40 at the SE 29th/Air Depot intersection... but that's not a great spot. There's very little space here to make a rail-based option work here, and if I'm not mistaken, Tinker's not really interested in having transit vehicles come on base - so using their land is out. As much as I'd like a rail connection here, these factors make that option very difficult.

As it stands today, the RTA is planning to run BRT from Santa Fe Station east along Reno to Eastern, then south to SE 29th, then east to Tinker (presumably the visitor center on Air Depot, or nearby)... but the exact route is still subject to change. I doubt at this point that the transit mode will change, however.

If they do add a commuter rail stop at Crossroads, though, I could definitely see it become a SE OKC mini hub for the bus system, if nothing else.

I feel like developing different sections of the parking lot and eventually the demolishing the entire mall and turning the area into apartments with internal courtyards for greenspaces and structured parking. You could eventually have some first floor retail and restaurants you would have room and the area demographics for a grocery store. In 20-25 years, you could have a fairly walkable community in the area. Just do it in phases taking different parts of the massive parking lot that are not being utilized. I think it is an awful idea to keep trying to renovate that mall.

This is basically what I was envisioning, yeah... a phased approach to development around the station, developing the empty land and parking lots, with the long-term goal being to remove the mall building in favor of a dense, walkable office/residential/retail development with the rail station as the centerpiece tying it all together.

[HOT ROD]

unless the industrial / trash dump / and demographics were to change that is not a great spot for a TOD spot ..

?? Um, I don't think you understand (or appreciate) what TOD is. Crossroads is probably the BEST location in OKC for TOD given its location, rail and freeway access, and site.You could fit THOUSANDS of people in the Crossroads Mall area (not even highrises) and it would be a HUGE win for OKC mass transit (TOD).

I too am very surprised Crossroads is left off given it'd be so easy to put a station there and the TOD it could bring. I'm also very surprised with the "need" for a north OKC station when it would only be a mile away from Santa Fe. Commuter Rail is intended to be a commute option with limited stations, not a light rail with multiple destination stops. The ONLY reason there should be additional stations in the city of OKC is due to its size/density where there needs to be one at 63rd (and arguably Britton) and PnR at 122nd and Crossroads. You really start to defeat the purpose of commuter rail with multiple in-city stops, those should be made with transfer to local bus or streetcar/light rail.

[Zorba]

^ THIS^

A Transit-Oriented Development spot (TOD) for an area like Crossroads Mall, IMO could kick-start development and transform that area. Despite the Dumpsite near the area, it's far enough away from the mall that it shouldn't be a concern.

A transit development there would be a plus for OKC.

Do we actually think OKC could pull off an actual dense TOD? Or would it just be a just be a huge parking lot moat?

I personally think the goal of any mass transit should be to service or create) dense development, I just don't see OKC pulling that off, especially at Crossroads.

[stlokc]

I see no reason why OKC couldn't pull off a dense TOD somewhere. However, I think 63rd is more likely for such an animal. Just much more there to work with and build upon.

[mugofbeer]

Crossroads Mall would be an ideal place for a distribution center(s) or Tinker-related industry.

[baralheia]

Crossroads Mall would be an ideal place for a distribution center(s) or Tinker-related industry.

I sure hope that doesn't happen here... talk about wasted opportunity.

[mugofbeer]

It's certainly not suitable for the type of dense transit-oriented development like you might find in Dallas or Hong-Kong. It's in an industrial zone, near a garbage dump and - being realistic, the socio-economic demographics of the area don't support it. It's not an if-you-build-it-they-will-come situation.

[josefromtulsa]

I sure hope that doesn't happen here... talk about wasted opportunity.

Not to mention the 577 project is right around the corner and is four times the size.

[Rover]

Crossroads Mall would be an ideal place for a distribution center(s) or Tinker-related industry.

That would make too much sense. Quick & easy access for interstates going multiple directions, large nearby industrial customer base, nearby airport, nearby rai lines. Nah.. loo logical.