OKC Regional Transit System

[Teo9969]

I just don't see a good argument for stopping anywhere other than the Fairgrounds. There is no way that the Meridian Hotels will provide the ridership necessary to justify, they would already have a combined shuttle line if it was really that valuable to those hotels. I do not think the city should be particularly concerned with connecting those hotels to downtown or even the fair grounds. I'd be okay with the city running a survey for patrons of the hotel and try and collect some info to try and divine ridership likelihood.

Otherwise, if the land/hotel owners are committed to re-framing the area and want to raise and invest about $300M worth of improvements for the area's walkability, general beauty, and baseline viability as a passable urban area, then we can talk. Until then, I'm very serious when I say it's not worth losing a single minute on the route schedule to stop there.

[baralheia]

I just don't see a good argument for stopping anywhere other than the Fairgrounds. There is no way that the Meridian Hotels will provide the ridership necessary to justify, they would already have a combined shuttle line if it was really that valuable to those hotels. I do not think the city should be particularly concerned with connecting those hotels to downtown or even the fair grounds. I'd be okay with the city running a survey for patrons of the hotel and try and collect some info to try and divine ridership likelihood.

Otherwise, if the land/hotel owners are committed to re-framing the area and want to raise and invest about $300M worth of improvements for the area's walkability, general beauty, and baseline viability as a passable urban area, then we can talk. Until then, I'm very serious when I say it's not worth losing a single minute on the route schedule to stop there.

Fixed-guideway transit is important for moving people, but also to incentivize economic development. I'm firmly of the mind that a line to the airport does not make financial sense if it relies on airport riders alone - there will never be enough pax to support the line in that scenario. We already know the hotels on Meridian are quite busy. Adding a stop near the river at SW 15th and Meridian helps incentivize ridership on the system - both to the Fairgrounds and the wider city beyond - because there is already *some* walkable infrastructure there, and having a stop there would encourage more walkable development. It would also tie in with the river trails network too. An easy win. A stop at the Fairgrounds - even if it were only open for special events - would be another easy win, drawing riders both from the Meridian Ave hotels and from the rest of the city too, allowing car-free access to the Fair and other events. And additionally, a stop near the Farmer's Market district would help that district continue to grow and revitalize itself, as well as provide easier access during events; if you've ever attended a show or event at the Farmer's Market, you know how awful the parking situation is there. This would also provide incentive to grow housing in this area too due to it's proximity to the transit network. Another easy win.

Make the line to the airport as quick as possible while bringing the greatest possible value to the transit network overall through a few strategically located intermediate stops. That's how you ensure success of this proposed service IMO.

[Zorba]

I'm curious how the light rail will interact with Reno and Meridian. Are the tracks on the street? Are lanes reduced to allow space for light rail specific track? Is it similar speeds to the streetcar?

The article estimates $125 million/mile for light rail. With a 9 mile route, that's over a billion $$$ for just the airport line.

Personally, I see the value. But "pay $1 billion for a traing that takes an hour* to get from downtown to the airport" seems like a tough sell to taxpayers in Edmond/Norman.

(*I don't know the exact time estimates for this approach)

I am 100% hard core pro mass transit, especially rail, but putting this rail line on the the street would be an incredible waste of money. We don't have enough transit dollars to spend them on projects people won't use. A train that runs as slow as a bus, should just be a bus. Somehow this country needs to learn how to build heavy rail again.

[Zorba]

One factor in timing is if it will have a dedicated traffic lane or if it will need to be a part of current traffic flow like the downtown streetcar.

If it isn't seperated from traffic, it should just be a high frequency bus. There is no point in spending $1B laying track to create train route that has all of the downsides of a bus and none of the pros of a train.

[Urbanized]

Fixed-guideway transit is important for moving people, but also to incentivize economic development. I'm firmly of the mind that a line to the airport does not make financial sense if it relies on airport riders alone - there will never be enough pax to support the line in that scenario. We already know the hotels on Meridian are quite busy. Adding a stop near the river at SW 15th and Meridian helps incentivize ridership on the system - both to the Fairgrounds and the wider city beyond - because there is already *some* walkable infrastructure there, and having a stop there would encourage more walkable development. It would also tie in with the river trails network too. An easy win. A stop at the Fairgrounds - even if it were only open for special events - would be another easy win, drawing riders both from the Meridian Ave hotels and from the rest of the city too, allowing car-free access to the Fair and other events. And additionally, a stop near the Farmer's Market district would help that district continue to grow and revitalize itself, as well as provide easier access during events; if you've ever attended a show or event at the Farmer's Market, you know how awful the parking situation is there. This would also provide incentive to grow housing in this area too due to it's proximity to the transit network. Another easy win.

Make the line to the airport as quick as possible while bringing the greatest possible value to the transit network overall through a few strategically located intermediate stops. That's how you ensure success of this proposed service IMO.

This is all exactly right. Also, stops in the suggested locations would place a massive number of OKCs hotel rooms within just a few blocks of stops on this line, plus the airport, downtown and the fairgrounds, all major draws for visitors to this city. It makes a tremendous amount of sense for people utilizing any two of the destinations, and there is so much overlap that many will use multiple stops.

It also provides a connection between the fairgrounds and diwntown, plus Meridian hotels and downtown. Tons of economic development bang for the buck.

Plus, everything I am hearing is that the intention is that this line would have dedicated ROW. True light rail, NOT streetcar.

[Zorba]

I just don't see a good argument for stopping anywhere other than the Fairgrounds. There is no way that the Meridian Hotels will provide the ridership necessary to justify, they would already have a combined shuttle line if it was really that valuable to those hotels. I do not think the city should be particularly concerned with connecting those hotels to downtown or even the fair grounds. I'd be okay with the city running a survey for patrons of the hotel and try and collect some info to try and divine ridership likelihood.

Otherwise, if the land/hotel owners are committed to re-framing the area and want to raise and invest about $300M worth of improvements for the area's walkability, general beauty, and baseline viability as a passable urban area, then we can talk. Until then, I'm very serious when I say it's not worth losing a single minute on the route schedule to stop there.

No way that a rail line with no local ridership would ever make sense. The blue line from ORD to downtown Chicago and the orange line from Midway to downtown Chicago both have numerous local stops, and the majority of the traffic on them is not to/from the airports. They are also grade separated heavy rail and have short stop times.

[Thunderbolt]

Plus, everything I am hearing is that the intention is that this line would have dedicated ROW. True light rail, NOT streetcar.

That's great to hear. Just having a hard time imagining what that looks like on that route, especially the downtown Reno and then the Meridian stretch.

[David]

I like the idea of the dedicated ROW for the line out to the airport, I just have to wonder how it fits in to the existing land around Reno and Meridian to and from the airport.

[TheTravellers]

No way that a rail line with no local ridership would ever make sense. The blue line from ORD to downtown Chicago and the orange line from Midway to downtown Chicago both have numerous local stops, and the majority of the traffic on them is not to/from the airports. They are also grade separated heavy rail and have short stop times.

Actually, they're not heavy rail, they're part of the L system. Metra is the heavy rail there.

[BoulderSooner]

Actually, they're not heavy rail, they're part of the L system. Metra is the heavy rail there.

the L is a type of Heavy Rail

https://ggwash.org/view/71583/light-...on-a-continuum

Subways: Systems like the New York Subway and the Chicago L are a type of heavy rail. While these types of service are certainly regional in nature, they often serve only the central municipality and not surrounding jurisdictions. Stop spacing is fairly close and speeds are slower than more regional-type services. The defining characteristic of this subset of heavy rail is that ridership is based on walk-to riders rather than drive-to riders.

[TheTravellers]

the L is a type of Heavy Rail

https://ggwash.org/view/71583/light-...on-a-continuum

Apparently there are tons of definitions/categories of rail, which I didn't realize, it's kind of insane. And the definitions can apparently differ by city or country, so yeah, the L is a kind of heavy rail, but I have to say that it's not usually what's thought of when you hear "heavy rail".

[Mississippi Blues]

Generally, heavy rail has dedicated ROW and higher capacity, i.e. longer trains used over longer distances. Light rail can have dedicated ROW, but it typically is designed to easily integrate into at-grade, mixed traffic with tram-like vehicles, which means the trains are narrower and shorter but also able to stop more frequently, so can be useful for more local routes. Heavy rail is used for local routes as well in denser parts of cities but really it boils down to whether it’s designed to integrate into existing traffic networks or if it is designed to have its own dedicated route.

There’s more technical distinctions than what I described, but that’s basically how I’ve trained (no pun intended) my brain to think about it.

[Zorba]

Apparently there are tons of definitions/categories of rail, which I didn't realize, it's kind of insane. And the definitions can apparently differ by city or country, so yeah, the L is a kind of heavy rail, but I have to say that it's not usually what's thought of when you hear "heavy rail".

Yeah, I didn't used to realize subways were considered heavy rail until I was reading a lot about Marta in ATL a few years back. When you compare them to true light rail, though, it makes sense.

[David]

https://x.com/davidfholt/status/1811761750326317131

Our Rapid line up Classen and Northwest Expressway has welcomed 250,000 riders in its first seven months! Clearly, this new service fills a need. Hopefully you’ve checked it out. If not, join your neighbors and give it a try.

250k riders so far on the BRT line, so an average of a bit more than a thousand riders a day? Seems pretty successful.

[HOT ROD]

Im surprised it's that low actually. With our capacity, that's about 14 round trips per day.

[citywokchinesefood]

I think it will take a bit of time for people to trust and actively rely on the service. I have had employees in the past that utilized the old regular bus system, and it was incredibly inconsistent for them. If they consistently do a good job with the service the ridership will grow, and more services will be developed around the system naturally.

[josefromtulsa]

I noticed that these slides from the 2023 June update hasn't been shared here. It has the proposed stations listed. I'm not sure how official these are or if they are only proposals.
North Edmond Station
Downtown Edmond Station
JKT Station
63rd St Station
North OKC Station
Santa Fe Depot
29st Station
Tecumseh Rd Station
Downtown Norman Station
OU Special Event Station
South Norman Station





See June 2023 Update presentation

[stlokc]

I'm not a transit planner but it seems very strange not to have a stop between 63rd and the JKT. Britton makes the most sense with the existing and hopefully future density there. I'm also amazed that there is no stop listed between South 29th and the city of Norman? That is really a very long distance. There should at least be a stop by I-240 and probably one in Moore also.

[josefromtulsa]

I'm not a transit planner but it seems very strange not to have a stop between 63rd and the JKT. Britton makes the most sense with the existing and hopefully future density there. I'm also amazed that there is no stop listed between South 29th and the city of Norman? That is really a very long distance. There should at least be a stop by I-240 and probably one in Moore also.

I agree. A stop at Crossroads could lead to some big time Oak style redevelopment in the future.

And Moore pulled out of the RTA so no stops there.

[bison34]

I agree. A stop at Crossroads could lead to some big time Oak style redevelopment in the future.

And Moore pulled out of the RTA so no stops there.

Crossroads has some of the worst demographics in the city, unfortunately. I don't think we will see any quality developments there for a long, long time. And it will take a ton of OKC and state subsidies.

But an RTA stop will be a great first step!

[cinnamonjock]

Pretty sure Moore backed out of the RTA and so won't get a stop

[stlokc]

Areas with more challenging demographics should actually be prioritized for connections. This is public transit after all and should be accessible to people that need said transit. I would imagine there are more people without access to reliable personal transportation in the Crossroads area than in almost any other along that entire route. And come to think of it, the Britton area as well.

[Rover]

I agree. A stop at Crossroads could lead to some big time Oak style redevelopment in the future.

And Moore pulled out of the RTA so no stops there.

There is no way the area at Crossroads would support an Oaks level of development. Maybe a cheaper alternative with apartments and shops, but not the same quaity level.

[jdg78]

There is no way the area at Crossroads would support an Oaks level of development. Maybe a cheaper alternative with apartments and shops, but not the same quaity level.

Thank you captain obvious and thank you for clarifying!!!! Oh geez, what could be with millions of dollars of public infrastructure and subsidies!!! We are better off subsidizing memorial and downtown. Sarcasam

[Laramie]

Pretty sure Moore backed out of the RTA and so won't get a stop

Good memory Cinnamonjock!

City of Moore withdraws from Regional Transit Authority: Oklahoma City Free Press - https://freepressokc.com/city-of-moo...ion-authority/