OKC Regional Transit System

[CaptDave]

If the primary purpose of the airport line is to quickly move arriving visitors and resident from the airport to downtown, A6 is the obvious choice with light rail as the mode.

A1 seems to make more sense as a streetcar extension with the line running in the median along Reno. Then more frequent stops at places such as the fairgrounds would be a natural fit. Dublin does something similar with the LUAS lines.

[The]

Thank you, David!

[HOT ROD]

rail lines should be most efficient given the marginal costs compared to other modes and that we want to expedite visitors (and business) into the city.

We can also run a "local" bus (or BRT) from the airport to downtown via Meridian and Reno. ..

[Grant]

A5 seems like the obvious choice that balances cost with speed. It's the second shortest route at ~0.7 miles longer than A6. Their recommended route is an additional mile (so ~1.7 longer than A6). Sure they'd probably need to build a second track west of Agnew. But it wouldn't involve cutting up city streets during construction. And, in the long term, wouldn't compete with traffic signals almost at all. And it seems like it uses the Santa Fe Station downtown, which saves even more money.

I worry we're dealing with the streetcar situation all over again where the route is viewed as a business opportunity instead of an efficient mode of transport. Running it up Meridian doesn't make a lot of sense for anyone who isn't a hotel owner on Meridian. It's both more expensive and slower (for both the train and auto traffic it would need to avoid).

[BoulderSooner]

A5 seems like the obvious choice that balances cost with speed. It's the second shortest route at ~0.7 miles longer than A6. Their recommended route is an additional mile (so ~1.7 longer than A6). Sure they'd probably need to build a second track west of Agnew. But it wouldn't involve cutting up city streets during construction. And, in the long term, wouldn't compete with traffic signals almost at all. And it seems like it uses the Santa Fe Station downtown, which saves even more money.

I worry we're dealing with the streetcar situation all over again where the route is viewed as a business opportunity instead of an efficient mode of transport. Running it up Meridian doesn't make a lot of sense for anyone who isn't a hotel owner on Meridian. It's both more expensive and slower (for both the train and auto traffic it would need to avoid).

bingo

[okcrun]

A5 seems like the obvious choice that balances cost with speed. It's the second shortest route at ~0.7 miles longer than A6. Their recommended route is an additional mile (so ~1.7 longer than A6). Sure they'd probably need to build a second track west of Agnew. But it wouldn't involve cutting up city streets during construction. And, in the long term, wouldn't compete with traffic signals almost at all. And it seems like it uses the Santa Fe Station downtown, which saves even more money.

I worry we're dealing with the streetcar situation all over again where the route is viewed as a business opportunity instead of an efficient mode of transport. Running it up Meridian doesn't make a lot of sense for anyone who isn't a hotel owner on Meridian. It's both more expensive and slower (for both the train and auto traffic it would need to avoid).

There is a median most of that stretch of Reno so in theory they wouldn't need to tear up the roads the entire way but I agree with you if it's implemented like the streetcar it will be a disaster. That route is about 20-25 minutes by car so if you factor in stops it wouldn't surprise me if it took around ~40 minutes from end to end. For reference, the Denver rail line from the airport to union station downtown takes 37 minutes and goes 23 miles with 6 stops in-between. This would take probably just as long to go about 10 miles.

[The]

I worry we're dealing with the streetcar situation all over again where the route is viewed as a business opportunity instead of an efficient mode of transport. Running it up Meridian doesn't make a lot of sense for anyone who isn't a hotel owner on Meridian. It's both more expensive and slower (for both the train and auto traffic it would need to avoid).

This! Have they learned nothing from the streetcar fiasco? Good old boy dealings at work here or just ignorance?

[Richard at Remax]

I don't think having rental car facility, meridian hotels, fairgrounds, and farmers market as the stops on your way into downtown is anything negative to look at.

[aDark]

I don't think having rental car facility, meridian hotels, fairgrounds, and farmers market as the stops on your way into downtown is anything negative to look at.

I have a hard time buying this as accurate. Below is my uninformed opinion and I welcome discussion on my accuracy/inaccuracy:

Those who are renting vehicles for their visit to OKC shouldn't have to wait on a light rail to go get their vehicle. The rental companies already supply a shuttle from the terminals which are quite fast and frequent. It would be an unnecessary stop, it would be duplicative, and it's barely a mile from the terminal. Further, no one returning a rental would want to time a trip back to catch a flight from ~less than a mile away. If I was riding to downtown okc and the rail I just boarded stopped ~than a mile away I'd be annoyed and the rail likely hasn't reached a decent speed before slowing again.

The Meridian hotels are the only stop along this route that makes some sense, imo. I would still rather our track run more directly to downtown than to service those (generally) cut-rate hotels and sketchy motels. My personal and uninformed belief is that this route, and stop, would no outweigh the speedy benefits of a point-to-point direct access from airport to Santa Fe Station. I'd love for someone with more actual knowledge to inform me of how many people frequent that hotel grouping from air travel. I'm sure it's decent. It's only 3.4 miles away and I understand some do offer shuttle service already. I also believe the hotels onI-40 and meridian host some air travel but also have lots of vehicle travelers, too. If we had to make a Meridian stop is there going to be advocates saying we should stop at the river (SW 15th) and Meridian and then again at I40 and Meridian? That seems awfully bad.

While I understand that the fairgrounds (allegedly) makes gobs money for our City from tourism, I do not believe there to be significant overlap between those visiting the fairgrounds and those using air travel to get here. If the Fairgrounds biggest draw is the Equine industry it is my belief that travel is largely local and with by roadway. If, outside of horse shows, the fairgrounds have some other massive events which loads of people fly in for, we can surely agree those events are infrequent at best. Further, anyone who is flying in to see horses or other expositions at the fairgrounds are staying in OKC overnight, they still need to get to the central core. No one stays at/near the fairgrounds. There are no hotels. Unless they're in an RV and therefore wouldn't benefit from access to the airport.

I love the optimistic idea that the Farmers Market area grows into a highly relevant corridor someday. As of now, no. No one is flying into OKC to go to our Farmer's market.

The linear distance b/w Denver Intl and downtown is more than 20 miles. They have six stops. Those stops are generally to serve people who live in between the airport versus those travelling to downtown. No stops for rental cars or farmers markets. The linear distance b/w Will Rogers Intl and downtown OKC is ~6 miles. So, if the purpose of this rail is not to drop residents near their homes in the direct path between airport and downtown then make the rail FAST and direct, thereby making it more frequent.

(please excuse poor grammar or syntax I typed up more than I intend and need to get back to work)

[TheTravellers]

^^^^^ Absolutely agree with all of the above. Make it as non-stop and fast as possible.

[BoulderSooner]

I don't think having rental car facility, meridian hotels, fairgrounds, and farmers market as the stops on your way into downtown is anything negative to look at.

it absolutely is ... the preferred selection is 30 min with NO stops end to end ... (that is also mid day with less traffic then peak hours)

that is the go 10 miles ... that is already double the time of an uber lift or personal vehicle .. and again that is without stops ..

the Denver airport line has 6 stops in 23 miles and takes 37 min driving the same route takes 30ish .. very competitive ..

the OKC route is going to be well over 40 min ... for 9 miles ... that is not competitive .. and will make it very very hard to be successful ..

[BoulderSooner]

I have a hard time buying this as accurate. Below is my uninformed opinion and I welcome discussion on my accuracy/inaccuracy:

Those who are renting vehicles for their visit to OKC shouldn't have to wait on a light rail to go get their vehicle. The rental companies already supply a shuttle from the terminals which are quite fast and frequent. It would be an unnecessary stop, it would be duplicative, and it's barely a mile from the terminal. Further, no one returning a rental would want to time a trip back to catch a flight from ~less than a mile away. If I was riding to downtown okc and the rail I just boarded stopped ~than a mile away I'd be annoyed and the rail likely hasn't reached a decent speed before slowing again.

The Meridian hotels are the only stop along this route that makes some sense, imo. I would still rather our track run more directly to downtown than to service those (generally) cut-rate hotels and sketchy motels. My personal and uninformed belief is that this route, and stop, would no outweigh the speedy benefits of a point-to-point direct access from airport to Santa Fe Station. I'd love for someone with more actual knowledge to inform me of how many people frequent that hotel grouping from air travel. I'm sure it's decent. It's only 3.4 miles away and I understand some do offer shuttle service already. I also believe the hotels onI-40 and meridian host some air travel but also have lots of vehicle travelers, too. If we had to make a Meridian stop is there going to be advocates saying we should stop at the river (SW 15th) and Meridian and then again at I40 and Meridian? That seems awfully bad.

While I understand that the fairgrounds (allegedly) makes gobs money for our City from tourism, I do not believe there to be significant overlap between those visiting the fairgrounds and those using air travel to get here. If the Fairgrounds biggest draw is the Equine industry it is my belief that travel is largely local and with by roadway. If, outside of horse shows, the fairgrounds have some other massive events which loads of people fly in for, we can surely agree those events are infrequent at best. Further, anyone who is flying in to see horses or other expositions at the fairgrounds are staying in OKC overnight, they still need to get to the central core. No one stays at/near the fairgrounds. There are no hotels. Unless they're in an RV and therefore wouldn't benefit from access to the airport.

I love the optimistic idea that the Farmers Market area grows into a highly relevant corridor someday. As of now, no. No one is flying into OKC to go to our Farmer's market.

The linear distance b/w Denver Intl and downtown is more than 20 miles. They have six stops. Those stops are generally to serve people who live in between the airport versus those travelling to downtown. No stops for rental cars or farmers markets. The linear distance b/w Will Rogers Intl and downtown OKC is ~6 miles. So, if the purpose of this rail is not to drop residents near their homes in the direct path between airport and downtown then make the rail FAST and direct, thereby making it more frequent.

(please excuse poor grammar or syntax I typed up more than I intend and need to get back to work)

i replied in my other post before i read yours ... i agree 100% ..

If fact it would make much much more since to use the A5 line and make the airport stop a combine pick up point with the rental car facility ... (because those shuttles are continual and efficient. )

[Richard at Remax]

I have a hard time buying this as accurate. Below is my uninformed opinion and I welcome discussion on my accuracy/inaccuracy:

Those who are renting vehicles for their visit to OKC shouldn't have to wait on a light rail to go get their vehicle. The rental companies already supply a shuttle from the terminals which are quite fast and frequent. It would be an unnecessary stop, it would be duplicative, and it's barely a mile from the terminal. Further, no one returning a rental would want to time a trip back to catch a flight from ~less than a mile away. If I was riding to downtown okc and the rail I just boarded stopped ~than a mile away I'd be annoyed and the rail likely hasn't reached a decent speed before slowing again.

The Meridian hotels are the only stop along this route that makes some sense, imo. I would still rather our track run more directly to downtown than to service those (generally) cut-rate hotels and sketchy motels. My personal and uninformed belief is that this route, and stop, would no outweigh the speedy benefits of a point-to-point direct access from airport to Santa Fe Station. I'd love for someone with more actual knowledge to inform me of how many people frequent that hotel grouping from air travel. I'm sure it's decent. It's only 3.4 miles away and I understand some do offer shuttle service already. I also believe the hotels onI-40 and meridian host some air travel but also have lots of vehicle travelers, too. If we had to make a Meridian stop is there going to be advocates saying we should stop at the river (SW 15th) and Meridian and then again at I40 and Meridian? That seems awfully bad.

While I understand that the fairgrounds (allegedly) makes gobs money for our City from tourism, I do not believe there to be significant overlap between those visiting the fairgrounds and those using air travel to get here. If the Fairgrounds biggest draw is the Equine industry it is my belief that travel is largely local and with by roadway. If, outside of horse shows, the fairgrounds have some other massive events which loads of people fly in for, we can surely agree those events are infrequent at best. Further, anyone who is flying in to see horses or other expositions at the fairgrounds are staying in OKC overnight, they still need to get to the central core. No one stays at/near the fairgrounds. There are no hotels. Unless they're in an RV and therefore wouldn't benefit from access to the airport.

I love the optimistic idea that the Farmers Market area grows into a highly relevant corridor someday. As of now, no. No one is flying into OKC to go to our Farmer's market.

The linear distance b/w Denver Intl and downtown is more than 20 miles. They have six stops. Those stops are generally to serve people who live in between the airport versus those travelling to downtown. No stops for rental cars or farmers markets. The linear distance b/w Will Rogers Intl and downtown OKC is ~6 miles. So, if the purpose of this rail is not to drop residents near their homes in the direct path between airport and downtown then make the rail FAST and direct, thereby making it more frequent.

(please excuse poor grammar or syntax I typed up more than I intend and need to get back to work)

If a light rail runs every 15 min then it's not a crazy idea to add a stop there but it could go away. not dying on that hill.
the meridian hotels stop would be just south of the river. most likely 15th and meridian.
the fairgrounds is more for the opportunity for a park and ride situation or a good drop off/pick up point for that part of the world. I would use it.
the farmers market would be a stop for that growing population in west downtown. most likely reno/western area.
then downtown.

so max 4, most likely 3 stops. everyone keeps comparing it to denver but almost every one of their stops to/from the airport is a park and ride stop. clearly they need those to help with revenue. the blue line from ORD and orange line from Midway to downtown has a ton of stops. the orange line from dfw to downtown has a ton of stops. the green line from SLC to downtown has a ton of stops for a short distance.

clearly I am in minority but there is a reason they want to do this route.

[TheTravellers]

...the blue line from ORD and orange line from Midway to downtown has a ton of stops. the orange line from dfw to downtown has a ton of stops. the green line from SLC to downtown has a ton of stops for a short distance.

clearly I am in minority but there is a reason they want to do this route.

Those lines in Chicago are also general parts of the L/subway system and aren't specifically for a point-to-point commute with the airport at one end - they move people around all over the city, not just from one end of a dedicated-type of rail line.

[aDark]

If a light rail runs every 15 min then it's not a crazy idea to add a stop there but it could go away. not dying on that hill.
the meridian hotels stop would be just south of the river. most likely 15th and meridian.
the fairgrounds is more for the opportunity for a park and ride situation or a good drop off/pick up point for that part of the world. I would use it.
the farmers market would be a stop for that growing population in west downtown. most likely reno/western area.
then downtown.

so max 4, most likely 3 stops. everyone keeps comparing it to denver but almost every one of their stops to/from the airport is a park and ride stop. clearly they need those to help with revenue. the blue line from ORD and orange line from Midway to downtown has a ton of stops. the orange line from dfw to downtown has a ton of stops. the green line from SLC to downtown has a ton of stops for a short distance.

clearly I am in minority but there is a reason they want to do this route.

I guess the question becomes is the light rail for mainly to serve tourists coming into OKC or is it mainly to serve residents? I am under the impression its the largely the former. If If it's the latter, I guess you could argue the legitimacy of concocting a way to "park and ride"

Do we have the density along any proposed route to make a part and ride to save 3 miles of driving?? Absolutely not. SLC has 7x the density per sq kilometer that we do, so maybe that's the reason for their design

Also, the distance b/w SLC downtown and the airport is ~3 miles, so it is still a short ride, even with a few stops.

Most importantly, I understand the SLC light rail from airport to downtown runs in a straight line, unlike what is proposed above.

As to DFW, I don't know that we're comparing apples to apples. Some might say the same is true of Denver.

Surely some engineers can tell us the best design. I just hope the choice is dictated by objective research and not serving a few folks with ulterior motives.

[Jersey Boss]

If a light rail runs every 15 min then it's not a crazy idea to add a stop there but it could go away. not dying on that hill.
the meridian hotels stop would be just south of the river. most likely 15th and meridian.
the fairgrounds is more for the opportunity for a park and ride situation or a good drop off/pick up point for that part of the world. I would use it.
the farmers market would be a stop for that growing population in west downtown. most likely reno/western area.
then downtown.

so max 4, most likely 3 stops. everyone keeps comparing it to denver but almost every one of their stops to/from the airport is a park and ride stop. clearly they need those to help with revenue. the blue line from ORD and orange line from Midway to downtown has a ton of stops. the orange line from dfw to downtown has a ton of stops. the green line from SLC to downtown has a ton of stops for a short distance.

clearly I am in minority but there is a reason they want to do this route.

Don't most of those hotels provide free shuttle service to and from the airport?

[jedicurt]

my statement would be at most one stop, and that is only if it goes by the fairgrounds... if that A1 option is selected, that should be the only in-between stop. because then I think you make it (in the overall RTA view) a destination point other than the airport on that route. for example, i live in Norman, and so if i take the rail to downtown and then could get to the fairgrounds, i would consider that for all of my trips to events at the fair grounds (probably 4-5 a year)... but that isn't a reason to build that route, just saying that if the line is going by there, it would be dumb to not put a stop there. But the most direct line should be looked at, and that isn't one that goes anywhere near the fair grounds.

[Teo9969]

A study probably needs to be done to see what percentage of incoming WRWA incoming passengers travel first to downtown OKC. I'm going to just go ahead and guess it's a surprisingly small percentage, even among non-residents.

[baralheia]

I'm generally in favor of this alignment; it makes a lot of sense to me as long as it has dedicated RoW the entire way. For expediency, there should only be a maximum of 2 stops along this line - one at the Fairgrounds (could even be a park-n-ride type stop) and one within the Meridian Ave Hospitality Corridor (probably around SW 15th and Meridian, or thereabouts) to enable carless access to hotels for both airport travelers and fairgrounds visitors.

[TheTravellers]

I'm generally in favor of this alignment; it makes a lot of sense to me as long as it has dedicated RoW the entire way. For expediency, there should only be a maximum of 2 stops along this line - one at the Fairgrounds (could even be a park-n-ride type stop) and one within the Meridian Ave Hospitality Corridor (probably around SW 15th and Meridian, or thereabouts) to enable carless access to hotels for both airport travelers and fairgrounds visitors.

Do that many fairgrounds visitors fly in? As has been said, it's mostly horse shows and those folks don't fly in, which I suspect is true, but have no way of knowing for certain.

[Teo9969]

Hard no on a stop at the hotels on Meridian. - if public transit is needed for those, the rental shuttle can cover that.

The only stop worth putting between the terminus points is the fairgrounds. And actually, having a transit hub there could make a lot of sense. Looking at the Embark map, there are at least 5 routes you could make more efficient by having them go to the fairgrounds hub and then transfer to downtown via the Airport rail.

[Teo9969]

Do that many fairgrounds visitors fly in? As has been said, it's mostly horse shows and those folks don't fly in, which I suspect is true, but have no way of knowing for certain.

For me it's connecting downtown to the fairgrounds that creates tremendous value, not connecting the fairgrounds to WRWA.

[Urbanized]

This isn’t in direct response to the topic (regional transit and/or rail to airport), but instead a response to a comment upthread that I couldn’t let pass. There is no “alleged” to the revenue the fairgrounds brings the City. Believe it or don’t believe it. Whatever. But revenue generated due to fairgrounds events is bigger than the economic impact from OKC’s convention business AND sports business. Combined.

[Teo9969]

This isn’t in direct response to the topic (regional transit and/or rail to airport), but instead a response to a comment upthread that I couldn’t let pass. There is no “alleged” to the revenue the fairgrounds brings the City. Believe it or don’t believe it. Whatever. But revenue generated due to fairgrounds events is bigger than the economic impact from OKC’s convention business AND sports business. Combined.

Worked at Mahogany North in 2010 (when it was the only Mahogany in OKC) and that November was absolutely horrendous monetarily, which most staff said was pretty common.

Moved to The Ranch in 2011 and worked there for 7 years and November routinely rivaled December financially.

The difference between the 2 restaurants? The Ranch built a great brand with the horse show and so every night there are 2 or 3 tables coming in spending ungodly amounts of money.

The fairgrounds is one of those things that has contributed in a meaningful way to our diversification economically speaking. I am of the opinion we should build out a smaller entertainment district over there and if there were rail.connecting it to downtown, I really think it could become.one of the more popular routes.

[mugofbeer]

^^^^^ Absolutely agree with all of the above. Make it as non-stop and fast as possible.

Is there an airport rail system anywhere that stops at hotels?

Why would it need to stop at the rental car facility? That's why they're taking the rail.

Stops should only be for connecting mass transit.

Speed and traveller convenience is the motive for an airport line.