OKC Mayor Race 2014

[bchris02]

How did OKC get so bad pre-MAPS? Was it all the Pei Plan? How did it compare to other cities in that era? Wasn't the late '80s a rough time for downtowns nationwide? It is my impression that suburbia was king then and strips like NW Expressway would have been a showcase of urbanity then.

[warreng88]

How did OKC get so bad pre-MAPS? Was it all the Pei Plan? How did it compare to other cities in that era? Wasn't the late '80s a rough time for downtowns nationwide? It is my impression that suburbia was king then and strips like NW Expressway would have been a showcase of urbanity then.

The pei plan in the 60's and 70's, the fall of Penn Square Bank in 1982 didn't help and I think just the suburban living moving up in the mid to late 80's kind of finished it off.

[betts]

How did OKC get so bad pre-MAPS? Was it all the Pei Plan? How did it compare to other cities in that era? Wasn't the late '80s a rough time for downtowns nationwide? It is my impression that suburbia was king then and strips like NW Expressway would have been a showcase of urbanity then.

I moved here from Denver, which had a vibrant downtown at that time. We had a downtown university, great shopping, great restaurants, beautiful hotels, an art museum, Larimer Square. So, when I say I was shocked to see OKC's downtown, it's an understatment. Imagine no activity after 5 p.m., and the only activity prior to that was from business people. Bricktown was a bunch of dusty warehouses. Imagine no canal, no Chesapeake Arena, no Bricktown Ballpark, no Lower Bricktown, no downtown public library, no Myriad Gardens, no botanical tube. I was in the Skirvin once right after we moved here and admired it, but it was quickly closed and ultimately threatened with demolition. I think there was one nice restaurant downtown. I remember the underground, and there was at least one restaurant there, but I doubt if it was open after 5 p.m. I don't remember trees downtown, but I suppose I could be mistaken. You didn't go downtown because aside from the Myriad Arena (the name for the Cox then, IIRC), there was nowhere to go.

[Pete]

^

Not to mention, there was absolutely nothing in Midtown. Even Plaza Court was shuttered. Nothing in Deep Deuce, Auto Alley, 23rd Street, Plaza District... Really anywhere except the suburbs and there wasn't much there either, at least in terms of restaurants or things to do.

I didn't know better at the time I left in 1989 but it's shocking to think back and realize how bad things had become.



The reasons for all this was the stunning crash of the energy industry in the early 80's followed by the collapse of Penn Square Bank. Before long two of the largest employers in the city and certainly downtown -- 1st National and Liberty Banks -- were soon completely gone.

This after clearing huge blocks for urban renewal. What was built, like the Century Center, was plain, boring and largely unsuccessful. Even when Leadership Square opened, all it did was suck tenants from other downtown buildings. In fact, when First Interstate Bank acquired the assets of the former 1st National, they actually set up shop in Leadership Sq. leaving the Great Banking Hall completely abandoned and it's been that way since. And that was 30 years ago!

Even the Skirvin closed leaving the Sheraton as the only hotel in all of downtown.

The Myriad Gardens was opened but nobody went and there wasn't anything to do downtown, apart going to the Myriad or Civic Center, and when you did, you drove straight to those places then quickly left.

There were really only a handful of decent restaurants in the whole city, apart from generic chains. And of that handful, none were really outstanding.

As I said, it's shocking how dire things became and I almost had to leave for career opportunities and when I did it was sad but with little remorse.

[betts]

Restaurants were particularly pitiful. My husband and I loved Chinese food, particularly Szechuan. When we moved here we found one Cantonese restaurant - the Little Shanghai - in a strip shopping center on Western and Britton Road. There were a few nice restaurants, probably because of the oil boom, but it rapidly dropped down to fast food from there. We lived on 24th St., just behind Cuppies and Joe's, and there was nothing on 23rd St. but fast food. I remember there was virtually no Italian food - a restaurant called Tony's Via Roma was around, I think. Sammy's Pizza was almost your only pizza option. I felt like I'd moved to a small town.

[Jeepnokc]

Getting off topic but there were a few good hole in the walls though. The Pagoda on 36th, Sammy's, Miriwa on 23rd, Ouy Lin's on Penn. Inexpensive dives but good food. We went looking for a decent Chinese buffet today over on classen and were commenting about the lack of a decent buffet in that area now. There is only the one on 23rd at Western but it isn't really that good nor is the food hot.

[bchris02]

Restaurants were particularly pitiful. My husband and I loved Chinese food, particularly Szechuan. When we moved here we found one Cantonese restaurant - the Little Shanghai - in a strip shopping center on Western and Britton Road. There were a few nice restaurants, probably because of the oil boom, but it rapidly dropped down to fast food from there. We lived on 24th St., just behind Cuppies and Joe's, and there was nothing on 23rd St. but fast food. I remember there was virtually no Italian food - a restaurant called Tony's Via Roma was around, I think. Sammy's Pizza was almost your only pizza option. I felt like I'd moved to a small town.

Thats sad. How long ago was that? It almost sounds like OKC compared unfavortably to even Fort Smith, Arkansas in those days.

[Pete]

Even the nice restaurants weren't great.

When I think back to the special occasions, we would go to the Coach House. After that, maybe the Haunted House?? Good grief that restaurant is still there and you never even hear about it because there are dozens and dozens more and better options.

Juniors in the Oil Center (looked dated even in the 80's)? Flips?

These were the best places Oklahoma City had to offer. After that, it was Chi-Chi's or some other lame place. We didn't even have decent ethnic food; no real Asian, or decent Mexican let alone anything else.

The places we 20-somethings thought were cool were Mamasitas, VZD, The Varsity, and the Painted Desert (where Iron Starr is now). That was just about it and they were far from special.

Around 1988 two of my male cousins -- both around 27/28 -- visited and you know where I took them? The Varsity and to the OU campus. Those were the best options.


I really am depressed thinking about this.

But it is important to be honest about where things were before MAPS.

And remember, there was absolutely zero momentum when MAPS came along, just more of what I described. I would come back to visit and there was never anything new to see or do.

Of course now, I can spend a full week running around like crazy and not even see all the changes in less than a year.

[Pete]

Getting off topic but there were a few good hole in the walls though. The Pagoda on 36th, Sammy's, Miriwa on 23rd, Ouy Lin's on Penn. Inexpensive dives but good food. We went looking for a decent Chinese buffet today over on classen and were commenting about the lack of a decent buffet in that area now. There is only the one on 23rd at Western but it isn't really that good nor is the food hot.

Tony's Italian Specialties on Penn.

But all these only stood out because there was virtually nothing else.

[bchris02]

Mamasitas was cool back then? I have been once and thought it very, very underwhelming.

[betts]

We moved here in 1980. Actually, there was a restaurant which the Painted Desert replaced - Chadwicks. I'd forgotten about it until now, but that was the only nicer sandwich place, although I do remember going to VZDs. The Wine Cellar, Christopher's, the Newport are some of the nicer restaurants I remember.

[Pete]

Mamasitas was cool back then? I have been once and thought it very, very underwhelming.

Shows the standards in 1980's OKC.

[Jeepnokc]

I went to the Sand Plum in Guthrie for my senior prom in 1985. Wasn't a lot of choices back then and certainly nothing in Midwest City where I lived

[Pete]

We moved here in 1980. Actually, there was a restaurant which the Painted Desert replaced - Chadwicks. I'd forgotten about it until now, but that was the only nicer sandwich place, although I do remember going to VZDs. The Wine Cellar, Christopher's, the Newport are some of the nicer restaurants I remember.

Not sure Christopher's made it into the 90's. Or the Wine Cellar or Newport.


Anyway, the point being things were *bad* and MAPS was nothing short of a minor miracle.

To try and tear it down now when the investment has been repaid in literally incalculable amounts and ways... Well, that's shear lunacy.

[Pete]

I went to the Sand Plum in Guthrie for my senior prom in 1985. Wasn't a lot of choices back then and certainly nothing in Midwest City where I lived

Yes, I remember driving up there as well for a special occasion.

Living in the heart of NW OKC and driving to downtown Guthrie for a decent dining experience... That was where we were back then.

[RadicalModerate]

We moved here in 1980. Actually, there was a restaurant which the Painted Desert replaced - Chadwicks. I'd forgotten about it until now, but that was the only nicer sandwich place, although I do remember going to VZDs. The Wine Cellar, Christopher's, the Newport are some of the nicer restaurants I remember.

I moved here from Boulder (just up the pike from Denver) in about '73.
Downtown OKC was a depressing, deserted slum.
Now it is, like, Wonderland. (kudos to all involved).

Still, you might also remember when the "Larimer Square" area of downtown Denver was basically a haven for derelicts and winos much like what the area down around the Bus Station in OKC used to be . . .

P.S.: Pelican's over in MWC was just getting started then . . . Last time I was there it was as good as ever.
And let's not forget The Hungry Frog down there around 10th and Penn . . . =)

[jerrywall]

Meanwhile...

Sinkhole opens in downtown Oklahoma City

I'm sure someone will blame this on the mayor too.

[RadicalModerate]

Meanwhile...

Sinkhole opens in downtown Oklahoma City

I'm sure someone will blame this on the mayor too.

I would prefer to blame it on those old, underground, Chinese laundries/opium dens from back in the day.
That, or design flaws in that semi-abandoned, underground shopping tunnel network that was probably an insidious and inscrutable part of The Pei Plan . . .

This wouldn't have happened if Ed Shadid was mayor. But he isn't and it did. =)

[Pete]

Ha!

2nd & Villa is downtown?? Villa is halfway between Penn & May!

[RadicalModerate]

Obviously "Downtown" stops at Western.
Anything beyond that is uncharted territory . . .
Another reason to NEVER believe that what you hear/see on TV News has more than a tenuous connection with Truth. =)

[jerrywall]

Yeah, I thought the "downtown" descriptor was sort of funny...

[bchris02]

Yes, I remember driving up there as well for a special occasion.

Living in the heart of NW OKC and driving to downtown Guthrie for a decent dining experience... That was where we were back then.

That's also very sad. I would think NW OKC would have had decent albeit strip mall based dining options back then.

How did OKC in the 1980s compare to places like Louisville, Memphis, and Birmingham of that era? It's my understanding that a dead downtown wasn't all that uncommon. The shopping mall was the hub of social activity back then, was it not?

[krisb]

Attachment 4352

How about this visual? These are people enjoying the fruits of Mick Cornett's not inconsiderable labors. It cannot be said often enough: Without the MAPS projects, people would be comparing us unfavorably to Wichita. MAPS has been almost unbelievably transformative. I almost have to pinch myself when I think of what OKC was like before MAPS. And the new projects will bring us even closer to cities we are trying to emulate. A builder does that, not a breaker.

My point was...there is a diverse crowd of citizens that are at least interested in what Ed has to say. The electorate is not as monolithic as you would like to believe.

[betts]

Actually,what is great about the electorate, which does contain a few Democrats (like me) is that we have been monolithic in our willingness to tax ourselves to make this city better. When you act as if that impressive spirit counts for nothing, when you throw the voters votes back in their faces, you threaten everything this city has achieved. And for what? To win an election? To get a better bus system? There is no evidence that will happen. What is more likely is that the voters will turn contrary and stop voting FOR anything. You break a trust that I consider pretty sacred. We've got a majority of Republicans here and they're taxing themselves for capital improvements. You tiptoe quietly around that and hope they don't figure it out. You don't assume that if you ignore what they've voted for they'll suddenly see the light and vote for whatever you want to replace it with.

[bradh]

We've got a majority of Republicans here and they're taxing themselves for capital improvements. You tiptoe quietly around that and hope they don't figure it out. You don't assume that if you ignore what they've voted for they'll suddenly see the light and vote for whatever you want to replace it with.

I'm going to take a slight offense to this (even though I know you didn't intend it this way). I'm conservative and I'm well aware I'm paying extra taxes for capital improvements.

See, the difference is, unless you're talking about the most vocal and ignorant TP'ers, smart and logical Republicans don't have problems paying taxes for results they can see actually working. At the federal level, that rarely happens. On the local level, I've never had problems paying a tax for improvements I can count on and see making a positive effect on the community.