OnCue OKC Expansion

[Ross MacLochness]

I think we're nearing a "chicken or the egg" discussion. Major metropolitan areas are, by definition, densely populated. And that density creates higher real estate costs and making do in smaller spaces. It also creates functional walkability. At over 600 square miles, OKC is working on aspirational walkability IMO.

You aren't wrong. I'm saying that creating density (even if it feels artificial or aspirational at first) is essential to the long term health of our community. Therefore, I feel like it is in the city's best interest to try to limit huge auto oriented developments in the parts of town we are simultaneously trying to densify.

[Dob Hooligan]

I love our central city. I would never intend to claim it is bad in any way. The development is great, and mid-town is very near and dear to my heart. I get hit up for money there at about the same level as I do anywhere else (except for the General Pershing, May Avenue to Pennsylvania area spill off near 10th and May). But I think Western is never going to be part of the true "urban core" because it is the beginning of the single family, one story housing developments, that begin south of 10th and become the basis of the city going west.

[shawnw]

Slightly off topic but something to begin thinking about is that it's only a matter of two or three decades before gasoline cars are out or in serious decline. China has mandated 100% electric cars by 2050, I believe the EU has mandated 2040. Even if the US holds out longer, eventually there will be a supply chain problem. But we're already starting to see shifts in the US market towards electric.

I know there will be gas cars for long after new ones are mandated away, but market forces will impose changes in the refueling landscape. Of course, none of that means we won't still need "refuling stations" of some sort, but there will be an excellent opportunity to think about how refueling stations of should be (re)designed. Also, any new stations going in over the next couple decades we should almost think of as temporary.

[Pete]

^

You can be guaranteed that Oklahoma will be one of the very last states to convert vehicles to alternative energy.

California has very tight restrictions, demanding that a percentage of all cars are alternative fuels. There are certain thresholds by year and therefore the infrastructure is starting to change somewhat.

But I don't think many of us will live long enough for a big change here in Oklahoma. We can't even tax oil and gas at an appropriate level, I don't see state lawmakers taking this on; it will have to be forced upon us by the federal government.

[shawnw]

That's very valid.

[Ross MacLochness]

I love our central city. I would never intend to claim it is bad in any way. The development is great, and mid-town is very near and dear to my heart. I get hit up for money there at about the same level as I do anywhere else (except for the General Pershing, May Avenue to Pennsylvania area spill off near 10th and May). But I think Western is never going to be part of the true "urban core" because it is the beginning of the single family, one story housing developments, that begin south of 10th and become the basis of the city going west.

Yes, but even those single family neighborhoods are "dense" by OKC standards and quite walkable. This development is a step backward even in terms of those neighborhoods. What will make core neighborhoods even more attractive moving forward is creating safe connections between places that don't require cars, not creating places for cars at the expense of those connections.

[citywokchinesefood]

^

You can be guaranteed that Oklahoma will be one of the very last states to convert vehicles to alternative energy.

California has very tight restrictions, demanding that a percentage of all cars are alternative fuels. There are certain thresholds by year and therefore the infrastructure is starting to change somewhat.

But I don't think many of us will live long enough for a big change here in Oklahoma. We can't even tax oil and gas at an appropriate level, I don't see state lawmakers taking this on; it will have to be forced upon us by the federal government.

https://www.livemint.com/Industry/Fi...ford-stud.html

I would really like to see the actual paper put out for this study. I feel like classic cars will continue to be sold and ICE vehicles will still be operated over the next 50 years. Stanford researchers seem to think auto manufacturers won't make new ICE vehicles by 2030.

http://nhne-pulse.org/rethinking-tra...ion-2020-2030/

Lecture from Seba

[chuck5815]

https://www.livemint.com/Industry/Fi...ford-stud.html

I would really like to see the actual paper put out for this study. I feel like classic cars will continue to be sold and ICE vehicles will still be operated over the next 50 years. Stanford researchers seem to think auto manufacturers won't make new ICE vehicles by 2030.

http://nhne-pulse.org/rethinking-tra...ion-2020-2030/

Lecture from Seba

I'm confused about lithium (and other rare earth mineral) prices. If the electric car were to achieve any meaningful level of scale, wouldn't the price of lithium go through the roof, making the cost of the battery pack, and, by extension, the EV, much more expensive?

I understand the thought that the batteries are becoming more efficient, but I find it hard to believe that efficiency would offset what could be an enormous increase in cost.

[OKC Talker]

Ok, talking about design and site planning, fine, we should want good design. But JoBeth bringing up the fact that there is already a gas station in the area? Sorry councilwoman, your job isnt to limit investment or competition because you think demand is already being met. That gas station is dirty, unsightly and very small. It can serve only a fraction of what OnCue could serve. And if OnCue, or any other business, submits plans to build something, properly follows any rezoning, plan approvals, etc., and even has community meetings and most people are on board, then they should be allowed to build.

I dont care if theres 20 gas stations all clustered together, as long as they are allowed its not your job as council member to deny it.

I think you're forgetting about the 7-11 two blocks away: https://goo.gl/maps/TNpiMj54VVw

And denying development which is short sighted and against the greater good is exactly what we should want our city councilors to do... they're not just there to rubber stamp the David Box's of the world.

[baralheia]

But here's the thing about those cookie cutter, suburban mega gas stations; they're pretty damn nice. One thing I learned from living at 14th and Robinson throughout the 1990s is that the gritty, authentic, urban life has some shortcomings in the quality of life area. Big name brands and open square footage were in horribly short supply then and still are now, in some areas. We all love Uptown 23 and the Plaza District, but, as a neighborhood resident, sometimes you think that you deserve to have the convenience of a Sonic Drive In, or an OnCue (with a beer cave, spacious aisles, check out lines that are less than 5 people deep, space around the many gas pumps and a lower chance of being hit up for money from the beggars).

Urban areas deserve these services, IMO.

Oh, yes, of course they do! This is just a really bad location for this particular gas station design to be shoehorned into; the northeast corner of this intersection makes far, far more sense for something of this size and scope than at the entrance to a neighborhood. OnCue is also doing a really bad job of working to find a "best of both worlds" compromise - there's design changes that can be made to their service station that would still allow OnCue to provide the services they provide, but in a manner that has much less of a negative impact on the surrounding neighborhood. Acres of open concrete with a gigantic drive-thru lane does more to harm than help the neighborhood, imho.

[citywokchinesefood]

I'm confused about lithium (and other rare earth mineral) prices. If the electric car were to achieve any meaningful level of scale, wouldn't the price of lithium go through the roof, making the cost of the battery pack, and, by extension, the EV, much more expensive?

I understand the thought that the batteries are becoming more efficient, but I find it hard to believe that efficiency would offset what could be an enormous increase in cost.

That is part of the reason I would like to read the book and the papers he has published on the subject. What variables did he consider, and whe variables did he inevitably omit?

[onthestrip]

I think you're forgetting about the 7-11 two blocks away: https://goo.gl/maps/TNpiMj54VVw

And denying development which is short sighted and against the greater good is exactly what we should want our city councilors to do... they're not just there to rubber stamp the David Box's of the world.

But it seems quite a stretch to say this OnCue is shortsighted or against the greater good, and its not something I want my councilmember to decide for themselves. Whats the greater good you are looking for, that this lot stays empty?

For myself, I will immediately stop using the nearby 7-11 once this opens up. I imagine many other people will too. Would be wrong for a council member to deny their approval, especially with such small controversy on the matter.

[Plutonic Panda]

^^^ having the lot stay empty until a quality development that positively contributes to walkability for the neighborhood is the greater good instead of approving it just because it will happen sooner.

[MagzOK]

I likely will stop here daily on my commute into work. I think the location is great and will catch a lot of morning traffic.

[Pete]

That nearby 7-11 is pretty bad.

And they deserve to get their arse kicked when this OnCue opens up.

If these places did a better job they would have nothing to fear. One of the reasons that OnCue is so popular wherever they open is that they are just light years better than anything else in this market. Apart from the few 7-11's that have been built or upgraded only after this new competition presented itself.

All of Classen does not have a decent c-store or place to get gas. This new OnCue will absolutely kill it, which says much about the need.

[OKC Talker]

But it seems quite a stretch to say this OnCue is shortsighted or against the greater good, and its not something I want my councilmember to decide for themselves. Whats the greater good you are looking for, that this lot stays empty?

For myself, I will immediately stop using the nearby 7-11 once this opens up. I imagine many other people will too. Would be wrong for a council member to deny their approval, especially with such small controversy on the matter.

What about the Shell on 6th and Walker, the Phillips on 11th and Broadway, the Circle K on Western and 23rd, the other 7-11 on 23rd and Penn, and the Valero on 10th and Penn, all of which are within a mile of this location. Do you think everyone will immediately stop using those also? Is there really so much unmet demand in this 1 mile radius that having OnCue right next to an existing gas station and two blocks from another high capacity gas station is a great long term plan that's for the greater good of the city?

[Dob Hooligan]

Yes. I do. I think it can weed out a couple and make the others clean up their act.

[Pete]

Yes. I do. I think it can weed out a couple and make the others clean up their act.

Yep.

And when those other places go out of business they will get new uses.

[Plutonic Panda]

Yep.

And when those other places go out of business they will get new uses.

This can also be done while having a pedestrian friendly site plan similar to the example of the urban Atlanta gas station shown on this thread a few pages back.

[chuck5815]

Yea, I would never voluntarily stop at any of the trash, gas stations that presently serve Classen. Just too dangerous, IMO.

[Snowman]

Slightly off topic but something to begin thinking about is that it's only a matter of two or three decades before gasoline cars are out or in serious decline. China has mandated 100% electric cars by 2050, I believe the EU has mandated 2040. Even if the US holds out longer, eventually there will be a supply chain problem. But we're already starting to see shifts in the US market towards electric.

I know there will be gas cars for long after new ones are mandated away, but market forces will impose changes in the refueling landscape. Of course, none of that means we won't still need "refuling stations" of some sort, but there will be an excellent opportunity to think about how refueling stations of should be (re)designed. Also, any new stations going in over the next couple decades we should almost think of as temporary.

For better or worse, many if not most commercial buildings today are not constructed expecting to operate longer than 30 years anyway, it likely would be replaced by then if still considered a profitable business model and/or sold for land value if denser growth is a long term trend.

[turnpup]

What about the Shell on 6th and Walker, the Phillips on 11th and Broadway, the Circle K on Western and 23rd, the other 7-11 on 23rd and Penn, and the Valero on 10th and Penn, all of which are within a mile of this location. Do you think everyone will immediately stop using those also? Is there really so much unmet demand in this 1 mile radius that having OnCue right next to an existing gas station and two blocks from another high capacity gas station is a great long term plan that's for the greater good of the city?

We live in this area and do not go to any of the gas stations you listed. I can, however, see us frequenting the new OnCue if it's easy to get in and out of. Right now the 23rd and Santa Fe location is closest to our house but we also tend to avoid it because of the traffic in that area. Thinking about it, I generally get gas up north at the OnCue at 63rd and Expressway when taking my husband to work. It seems easier.

[Ross MacLochness]

The problem is that often times easy in-and-out for cars means an unwelcoming pedestrian experience.

[onthestrip]

What about the Shell on 6th and Walker, the Phillips on 11th and Broadway, the Circle K on Western and 23rd, the other 7-11 on 23rd and Penn, and the Valero on 10th and Penn, all of which are within a mile of this location. Do you think everyone will immediately stop using those also? Is there really so much unmet demand in this 1 mile radius that having OnCue right next to an existing gas station and two blocks from another high capacity gas station is a great long term plan that's for the greater good of the city?

Maybe all of those other stations simply arent as convenient. Maybe I like a clean, well lit facility. Maybe I am a fan of competition, free enterprise, and property rights.

You ask, "Is there really so much unmet demand?" I dont know, but I'll let OnCue take the risk and invest $4 million or so and let the rest of us decide if there is.

Im all for good urban design. But people are acting like this will be worse than the empty lot and the cracked, uneven, or even non existent sidewalks surrounding it. It will be well lit, safe and much better for pedestrians than it is now. And if we were to wait for something else to go here, we might be waiting a long time. There was already a mixed use plan proposed for this property but that obviously couldnt get off the ground. So for now, OnCue works for me.

[shawnw]

You're not wrong, but something else WAS going here. There was a 4-story residential going in. It went to planning commission (this was mentioned at the most recent planning commission meeting regarding OnCue). But then OnCue swooped in with a higher offer for the land, so the former owner took that deal.