New arena or upgrade the Ford Center?

[Easy180]

The city is not going to build a new arena. You would have to be stupid to think otherwise. I am with soonerliberal on this one. I would rather see the money go to rail or stay in the taxpayers pocket.

You saying the city will never build a new arena Kerry?...All of us have thrown out timeframes which I assume you think are stupid...Care to take a guess as to when a new one may be necessary to appease an NBA owner?

[bombermwc]

I would think that it's a neccessary evil once we are into the pro team market. We're not used to thinking like this because we've never been in this situation before. Hopefully we realize that the Ford Center isn't the snazziest, but isn't the crappiest either. When we get a team, it will absolutely need some more upgrades done to make it feel less "civic".

I would say that it will probably need to be replaced sometime in the next 10 years though. At that time, we will have a new convention center though, so we could easily bulldoze Cox and start from scratch and yet keep the arenas next to each other. Then in another 15 years or whatever, down comes the Ford Center. It would be easy to just rotate between the two sites because once I-40 is gone, both lots will have plenty room to be world class facilities.

[Blairman]

Dont want to "split-hairs", but OKC has been a (using your words) pro team for sometime. The OKC Indians that played at the fairgrounds were pro. So were/are 89ers, Redhawks, Blazers, Cavalary,YardDawgs, etc.

Maybe if you said major league, which is still a stretch, I would agree with you

[mranderson]

Dont want to "split-hairs", but OKC has been a (using your words) pro team for sometime. The OKC Indians that played at the fairgrounds were pro. So were/are 89ers, Redhawks, Blazers, Cavalary,YardDawgs, etc.

Maybe if you said major league, which is still a stretch, I would agree with you

[PUGalicious]

Applauding splitting hairs?

[Kerry]

Easy180 - here is my time frame

Maps I - 1993
Ford Center Constuction Starts - 1999
Ford Center Completed - 2002
Hornets Come - 2005
Hornets Go - 2007
-----
Sonics come - 2008
Start costruction of new arena - 2017
Open new arena - 2019

This timeline means the Sonics will play in the Ford Center for 11 years. This will coincide nicely with MAPS V

So you are correct EASY180, the city will builld a new arena but it won't be for 10 more years. My reference was to people that think the city should start construction in the next 2 years. Sorry I didn't make that clear.

[Drake]

The city is not going to build a new arena. You would have to be stupid to think otherwise. I am with soonerliberal on this one. I would rather see the money go to rail or stay in the taxpayers pocket.

I think it would be stupid to think that an NBA team would locate here without a new arena. Or at least the plans & promises for an NBA quality arena.

I think you would have to put money into upgrades for the FC, but with plans for a new arena.

The Ford Center serves exactly the purpose it was designed for. It was not built as a home to an NBA franchise. As it shouldn't have been. We were nowhere on the radar. Our arena was built, well let's say "economically". But that was cool. It was paid for. It was one the best investments this town has made. It has brought concerts & events that were passing us by.

I'm not sure how far from an engineering standpoint how much further you can take the Ford Center. You need more & larger luxury boxes. Locker rooms, training rooms, etc.

It would be a big step. But, imho, one that HAS to be taken if given the chance.

[mranderson]

I think it would be stupid to think that an NBA team would locate here without a new arena. Or at least the plans & promises for an NBA quality arena.

I think you would have to put money into upgrades for the FC, but with plans for a new arena.

The Ford Center serves exactly the purpose it was designed for. It was not built as a home to an NBA franchise. As it shouldn't have been. We were nowhere on the radar. Our arena was built, well let's say "economically". But that was cool. It was paid for. It was one the best investments this town has made. It has brought concerts & events that were passing us by.

I'm not sure how far from an engineering standpoint how much further you can take the Ford Center. You need more & larger luxury boxes. Locker rooms, training rooms, etc.

It would be a big step. But, imho, one that HAS to be taken if given the chance.

We just spent 89 million to build an "NBA quality" arena. We do NOT need another one until this one becomes 15-20 years old.

[Kerry]

IYou need more & larger luxury boxes. Locker rooms, training rooms, etc.

Why does the Ford Center need more luxury boxes? We are middle of the pack in the NBA for the number of luxury boxes. I'm not sure what the seating capacity of the Ford Center boxes are but I have been in a luxury box at the St. Pete Times Forum in Tampa and it was much smaller than I expected. My understanding is that the lockers rooms are among the largest in the NBA. Granted the city does need to build a practice facility but that is a given.

The Ford Center should last until 2019.

[Easy180]

We just spent 89 million to build an "NBA quality" arena. We do NOT need another one until this one becomes 15-20 years old.

We actually spent 89 mil trying to land an NHL team not NBA if I remember correctly...Think Bennett was going to own the team, but the NHL passed because of our small tv market

Will all work out for the best if we do land NBA...Heck of a lot better exposure and entertainment

[Easy180]

Easy180 - here is my time frame

Maps I - 1993
Ford Center Constuction Starts - 1999
Ford Center Completed - 2002
Hornets Come - 2005
Hornets Go - 2007
-----
Sonics come - 2008
Start costruction of new arena - 2017
Open new arena - 2019

This timeline means the Sonics will play in the Ford Center for 11 years. This will coincide nicely with MAPS V

So you are correct EASY180, the city will builld a new arena but it won't be for 10 more years. My reference was to people that think the city should start construction in the next 2 years. Sorry I didn't make that clear.

You may be right Kerry, but Bennett has used the phrase fine for the immediate future when describing the Ford Center...So I am more inclined to think the building will start in 5 or 6 years (If being a key word)

By Berry Tramel
Staff Writer

The Seattle SuperSonics want a new arena, and if they don't get one, they almost surely will move to Oklahoma City.
And want a new arena.

That's right. The clock already ticks on the 5-year-old Ford Center.

Bank on it. Be it Clay Bennett's Sonics, or George Shinn's Hornets, or whatever franchise we might try to lure to town, new digs will be part of the demand. Bennett said this week the Ford Center is fine for the immediate future, but the city eventually will need a new building.

You want the NBA, Oklahoma City? This goes with the territory. Almost new isn't new enough, even for native sons like Bennett and his OKC pals, whose Sonics play the Hornets tonight.

The Ford Center is a decent coliseum, and at $89 million, it cost us a song.

If it burns down tonight — not that the shooting of the Sonics or Hornets are capable of lighting such a spark — we'll still have gotten our money out of the deal. The Hornets, the Big 12 Tournament, Paul McCartney. That's getting close to $89 million right there.

Oklahoma City mayor Mick Cornett calls the Ford Center middle-of-the-road among NBA homes, and that's probably fair.

But no way will that be sufficient in a year or 10, should the Sonics drive in soon.

Let's say the Sonics come in the next couple of seasons. They spend a year or two bartering over arena plans. Spend a two or three years in construction. Suddenly it's 2013, and the Ford Center is 11 years old. Seattle's KeyArena, the bane of the NBA's existence, was renovated to appease the Sonics 11 years ago.

If it builds a new arena, what would OKC do with the Ford Center?

Well, it could turn the Cox Center into straight convention space and use the Ford Center as the backup coliseum.

Or it could raze the Ford Center; like I said, by then we'd have long gotten our money out of it.

What's wrong with the Ford Center? It lacks many of the money-making streams of 21st-century arenas. Hospitality areas. Concourse amenities beyond the routine concessions. Club and restaurant.

Sounds scurrilous for a franchise to need such opulence, but that's the real NBA. That's how you meet payrolls that go north of $50 million, or even higher if you want to win.

Cornett declined to much discuss the Ford Center's status, figuring he might soon have to negotiate such topics with the Sonics.

Everyone admits some upgrades are in order, and a practice facility is a must for a franchise.

Assistant city manager Tom Anderson, who oversees city facilities, is a big defender of the Ford Center.

"It can serve Oklahoma City for many, many years to come,” Anderson said. "We've got the meat and potatoes. We're talking about the gravy now.

"Here's the bottom line. Can we improve the appearance of the concourses, the appearances of the bathrooms? Sure we can. But as it is now, when the Hornets tip off, or The Who hits that first note, nobody cares if there's terrazzo on the floor or marble in the bathrooms.”

The Ford Center is fine with the fans. It is not fine with NBA owners. In a market like Oklahoma City, every red-dirt cent that can be squeezed out of an arena must be, so that a franchise can compete with American metropolises.

Bennett's laying low these days, working to get a new arena in Seattle that would exalt his group's $350 million investment.

Bennett plans to be at the Ford Center tonight, wearing Sonic green and sitting in his baseline seats where he's cheered on Chris Paul for the better part of two seasons.

Bennett offers a couple of innocuous quotes on the ironic matchup tonight.

"We're doing all we can to be successful in Seattle.”

And "At some point in time, the NBA will be in Oklahoma City.”

When the NBA gets here, it will start talking about a new building. Get ready.

[HOT ROD]

Why does the Ford Center need more luxury boxes? We are middle of the pack in the NBA for the number of luxury boxes. I'm not sure what the seating capacity of the Ford Center boxes are but I have been in a luxury box at the St. Pete Times Forum in Tampa and it was much smaller than I expected. My understanding is that the lockers rooms are among the largest in the NBA. Granted the city does need to build a practice facility but that is a given.

The Ford Center should last until 2019.

Because Bennett said so.

He said FC needs more luxury amenities, which would include luxury boxes, suites, and concessions. The city has funds for this, so it shouldn't be a big deal.

What I think ist needed is an exteriour upgrade of sorts, not too expensive but a little more glass and/or expansion so the lobby area is larger - that would be nice.

But yeah, FC should last until at least 2016, which would be in time for MAPS 4 or 5 to determine the replacement.

[Kerry]

First off Barry Trammel is an idiot. Second, actually I am just going to stick to item one, Barry trammel is an idiot.

[mranderson]

We actually spent 89 mil trying to land an NHL team not NBA if I remember correctly...Think Bennett was going to own the team, but the NHL passed because of our small tv market

Will all work out for the best if we do land NBA...Heck of a lot better exposure and entertainment

No. The Ford Center was built to attract either NHL or NBA. It just happened that the NHL was expanding, so Bennett applied for an expansion franchise. He would have been successful had it not been for Oklahoma City being boned by St. Paul. They were allowed a counter offer, whereas Oklahoma City was not. It was not this myth about a small television market. Our markets will include areas north of Wichita, to the Texas state line, into New Mexico, Arkansas, and Missouri. A populous of about five to six million.

[Drake]

We just spent 89 million to build an "NBA quality" arena. We do NOT need another one until this one becomes 15-20 years old.

89 million doesn't build an NBA quality arena. Not even when it was built. We built a bare bones facility.

I'm not all giddy about building another arena either. Just trying to be realistic.

Kansas City is opening up the $276 millon dollar Sprint Center this year. It has 72 suites compared to the FC's 56 (7 of which are party suites). Who knows what kind of plans Las Vegas would throw at the NBA.

Like it or not, these are our competitors.

[mranderson]

89 million doesn't build an NBA quality arena. Not even when it was built. We built a bare bones facility.

I'm not all giddy about building another arena either. Just trying to be realistic.

Kansas City is opening up the $276 millon dollar Sprint Center this year. It has 72 suites compared to the FC's 56 (7 of which are party suites). Who knows what kind of plans Las Vegas would throw at the NBA.

Like it or not, these are our competitors.

We are not in Kansas City. Nor are we in Las Vegas where they have stricter earthquake codes which esculates construction costs. The arena we paid 89 million for would cost three times that on the west coast, and probably double in Kansas City. And, yes. The improvements the city has already planned, are fine. Either way, it IS an NBA calibur arena. That is how it was sold to the public, and that is how it is.

[Drake]

We are not in Kansas City. Nor are we in Las Vegas where they have stricter earthquake codes which esculates construction costs. The arena we paid 89 million for would cost three times that on the west coast, and probably double in Kansas City. And, yes. The improvements the city has already planned, are fine. Either way, it IS an NBA calibur arena. That is how it was sold to the public, and that is how it is.

Well, you just need to get the word out to the NBA Board of Govenors, NBA owners, and NBA analysts that they got it all wrong then. YOU were sold an NBA arena and thats all there is to it!

Sorry, but if that is going to be the attitude, we have seen our last NBA game in the city. That maybe the right attitude. But if we want to take a step up as a city, I don't believe it is.

BTW, the BOK Center in Tulsa is on an 183 millon dollar budget. Yes, I understand inflation.

[mranderson]

Well, you just need to get the word out to the NBA Board of Govenors, NBA owners, and NBA analysts that they got it all wrong then. YOU were sold an NBA arena and thats all there is to it!

Sorry, but if that is going to be the attitude, we have seen our last NBA game in the city. That maybe the right attitude. But if we want to take a step up as a city, I don't believe it is.

BTW, the BOK Center in Tulsa is on an 183 millon dollar budget. Yes, I understand inflation.

I was sold on the arena? Where was I living when it was appoved? Plus, You really think one yes vote approves an arena? hum. ANd I thought we were in the United States. My mistake.

[CMSturgeon]

Why more luxury boxes? I guess it doesn't impact me because I've never been in one, let alone seen one. But the person who provided my tickets to the hornets game is a millionaire, and he doesn't even sit in the lower section near the floor. Is it a better view of the game? Because row N was pretty sweet.

[Easy180]

No. The Ford Center was built to attract either NHL or NBA. It just happened that the NHL was expanding, so Bennett applied for an expansion franchise. He would have been successful had it not been for Oklahoma City being boned by St. Paul. They were allowed a counter offer, whereas Oklahoma City was not. It was not this myth about a small television market. Our markets will include areas north of Wichita, to the Texas state line, into New Mexico, Arkansas, and Missouri. A populous of about five to six million.

Love how you know more than reporters mra....

Straight from the Maps site

The 581,000-square-foot facility meets National Hockey League requirements.

And please call Steve Lackmeyer and let him know his reporting is incorrect


For years after the passage of MAPS, a 20,000-seat arena loomed as the big unknown.
In the months leading up to the 1993 election, the arena was hailed as the way to turn Oklahoma City into a "major league city."

The city's young minor league hockey team, the Blazers, was selling out the 13,000- seat Myriad arena at a time when the National Hockey League was contemplating an expansion.

MAPS promoters expressed confidence the city would have a great shot of moving on to the big leagues with a new arena and an ownership team led by Clayton I. Bennett.

But when the NHL expansion was announced in 1997, Oklahoma City didn't make the cut. The NHL judged the city's arena and ownership package as strong, but the metropolitan area didn't have an adequate television market.

Not saying it wan't built to house various sports, but initially all eyes were on the NHL and not the NBA when building the Ford Center

[Patrick]

OKLAHOMA CITY As J.R. Smith punctuated his breakaway with a reverse jam to give the Hornets a 20-point lead over the Sacramento Kings in the third quarter, the capacity crowd jumped from its seats and let loose a rim-rattling yell that had been building for weeks, if not years.
Never has there been so much genuine enthusiasm - or so much noise - for an NBA team that won just 18 games in its previous season.
For six weeks since Oklahoma City secured the right to provide a temporary home for the New Orleans Hornets, who were displaced by Hurricane Katrina, the mayor, the city's business leaders and the fans who had bought 10,000 season tickets kept telling their guests, "Welcome!"
Wearing white home jerseys with the name Hornets on them, the team returned the favor on this electric Tuesday night at the Ford Center.
A city that is unfortunately best known for the 1995 terrorist bombing that claimed 168 lives, and that is only the 45th-largest U.S. television market, became major league when the New Orleans/Oklahoma City Hornets shocked the ragged Kings, 93-67.
"The least we could do is go out and play as hard as we can," Chris Paul, a rookie point guard, said after pushing a relentless pace throughout the game. "We feel like we owe a lot to this city and the state of Oklahoma for accepting us."
The 19,163 fans wore commemorative T-shirts for the occasion, but the victory in the first of 35 home games was almost a bonus.
The team that Oklahoma City inherited was a manmade disaster before the deluge in New Orleans. Three years after moving from Charlotte, the Hornets plummeted to the depths of the NBA in attendance, troubled by an apathy in the stands matched only by the lack of interest in their disgruntled locker room. Now theirs is a young team with unheralded players, an uncertain future and an unproven front office.
"I don't think it matters to us, this first year," Mayor Mick Cornett said the day before the game. "Right now, we just feel the excitement of becoming an NBA city and becoming part of the NBA family. Long term, we'd be like any other market, you have to be competitive. I think they get a free pass this year."
The Hornets receive free rent at the Ford Center, which houses a minor league hockey team but was built to NBA specifications. Paul received a free BMW from a dealership while waiting for his to be shipped from New Orleans. Players are being offered free meals in restaurants. Employees moving from New Orleans have been offered free housing.
The city is projecting $40 million in revenue. If the team loses more money than it did last season in New Orleans - when it averaged only 14,221 fans - Oklahoma City has agreed to pay the Hornets as much as $10 million. But if Tuesday is any indication, perhaps that will not be necessary.
"It was fun out there; it reminded you of playoff atmosphere," said the Hornets' P.J. Brown, a 13-year NBA veteran who led the team with 20 points. "It's only one game."
Perhaps Oklahoma City is the best thing to happen to the Hornets in years. The team needed a refuge; the city simply wanted recognition.
"When David Stern mentioned Oklahoma City to me, I know exactly what I said," the Hornets' owner, George Shinn, recounted from his new 18th-floor office in the downtown Oklahoma Tower. "I said, 'Oklahoma where?"'
Stern, the NBA commissioner, directed him to this metropolitan area of 1.13 million people. Five major local companies were ready as investors, led by Clay Bennett, the president of Dorchester Capital, a private investment firm. From 1993 to 1998, his wife's family, the Gaylords, was a part-owner of the San Antonio Spurs, and he sat on the board.
"This is the ultimate real-time test," Bennett said. "You have to think about it in a short-term way, so that you don't end up crushed when the day the team is gone."
But, he added, "I would be surprised if we go through this and somehow don't have a team."
The Hornets have an option for a second year in Oklahoma City, giving the city more time to demonstrate its worth over the competition that may come from Kansas City, Anaheim, Las Vegas and St. Louis.
Out of respect for what New Orleans has endured, Cornett, a former local television sports anchor, said there was no way he would allow Oklahoma City to fight over the Hornets with New Orleans.
The situation is a delicate one for Shinn, who does not want to seem like a mercenary eager to leave New Orleans. Tom Benson, the owner of the New Orleans Saints, has already been accused of wanting to do that.
"Our goal is very clear, to go back to New Orleans," Shinn said. "Does that make good business sense? We have got to use obviously good judgment."
Already, half of the season-ticket holders in New Orleans have asked for refunds. Six regular-season games are scheduled for Baton Rouge, Louisiana, but three of those could be moved to New Orleans in March.
Shinn said he had expressed concerns to Mayor Ray Nagin of New Orleans about who would buy tickets. Shinn said he had told Nagin, "We're going to have national exposure here; you don't want to have only 1,500 people in the seats."
Shinn said the federal government's plan to offer tax incentives for businesses that return to New Orleans was enticing, but Stern is not ready to declare the league's intentions when so much is unsettled.
For now, the team will bask in its newfound popularity. Paul, who was drafted No. 4 this year, scored 13 points in his debut.
"Every day I get to wake up and play the game I love," he said on Monday at the team's practice facility at Southern Nazarene University.
Before the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building on April 19, 1995, Oklahoma City had developed plans for a downtown revival, which included a Triple-A baseball stadium, a library and office buildings. The bombing directed the city's energy toward rebuilding and commemorating, reflected in a museum and memorial on the site of the bombing.
"The town wrestles with being known as the city of the bombing," said Kari Watkins, executive director of the museum. "Tonight is one of those moments of celebration, not of two tragedies, but how two cities have come together to rally together in light of those tragedies.
"If there's one thing we can teach New Orleans, it's that there is hope. We're moving forward. "

[Patrick]

Oklahoma City high on list of home sites for Hornets

By Darren Rovell
ESPN.com

When Oklahoma City opened up its Ford Center three years ago, its residents surely hoped that it would one day host a major professional sports team. After all, it was built to satisfy both NBA and NHL specifications.

The size and the overall lack of events in the arena look to be in the city's favor when the NBA figures to announce the location of the home games for the New Orleans Hornets next week. The New Orleans Arena was not severely damaged by Hurricane Katrina, but it's not likely that any games could be played in the facility this year.
A person with knowledge of the league's negotiations told ESPN.com that it is very likely that some of the Hornets games will be played in the state of Louisiana -- in Baton Rouge -- but Oklahoma City is the clear front-runner if the team needs to play somewhere else. Complicating factors in Baton Rouge, where the New Orleans Saints will play four of their home games, is that LSU's Pete Maravich Assembly Center is currently serving as a temporary home to evacuees. NBA officials spent Wednesday and Thursday in Baton Rouge to inspect the facilities and to donate their time and goods to the storm victims.
Representatives in Louisville, Ky.; Nashville, Tenn.; San Diego; and Kansas City, Mo., also offered to temporarily host the team, but no city can offer the state-of-the-art facility with as many open dates as Oklahoma City can.
NBA officials toured the Ford Center, which has a capacity of 19,675 seats, last Friday and they began to talk about the possible terms of a lease with the team. When matching up the schedule, there were only a few dates that the arena could not host the team. With the only full-time tenant of the building during the NBA season being the Central Hockey League's Oklahoma City Blazers, there are only 36 total events scheduled in the 181 days from November through April, according to the arena's Web site. Only one NBA game is currently scheduled -- a preseason game between the Houston Rockets and the Seattle SuperSonics on Oct. 17.
Oklahoma City mayor Mick Cornett said he believes his city is the first option if all the games can't be played in the state of Louisiana. "They made it clear that they liked what they saw and that our arena was appropriate for NBA games," Cornett said. The mayor would not divulge any other details of a proposed lease such as some sort of ticket guarantee.
The Hornets drew a league-low 14,421 fans per game in New Orleans last season. Those who are familiar with the Oklahoma City market say that a move to the city wouldn't mean a huge drop in attendance.
"This is a great sports community, it's a terrific facility and they shouldn't have trouble drawing large crowds," said Joe Castiglione, athletics director at the University of Oklahoma, which is based in nearby Norman, Okla. The Sooners draw more than 80,000 fans to football games on Saturdays and average about 9,500 fans per men's basketball game.
The Hornets are scheduled to hold the first two weeks of training camp at the Air Force Academy in Colorado and play their first preseason game on Oct. 13 at the Pepsi Center in Denver. But it's possible that if Oklahoma City lands the Hornets, the team could train at a closer location.
Cornett said that if the NBA were to come to Oklahoma City, it would give the local economy a huge boost. "There are more than a thousand businesses that need to relocate from New Orleans for a short time and, out of all of them, the Hornets are one of the most highly visible," Cornett said. "Having the NBA would place our city on a worldwide stage in a positive manner."

[Patrick]

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BASKETBALL NOTES
Buzz is good in Oklahoma

By Peter May | December 11, 2005

You're doing fine, Oklahoma.
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Sure, it could be the NBA version of First Baby Syndrome, sort of like the Red Sox last year. But something is going on in Oklahoma City that leads to one of two inescapable scenarios: Either the Hornets remain there or someone else relocates there.
The mayor of Oklahoma City, Mick Cornett, thinks that his city may well end up hosting the Hornets for another season. As Cornett put it last week in a telephone interview, ''I'm hearing there's a decent chance the team will be here for another year."
The NBA sees Oklahoma City, for now anyway, as the interim home of the Hornets. In a chat on ESPN.com last week, commissioner David Stern said, the Hornets ''are indeed doing great in OKC. But as far as we're concerned, it's an interim, temporary home. It is our present intention to keep the team in New Orleans."
Stern has promised the Oklahoma City folks he will let them know in January as to what is at stake for 2006-07. That's because in some cases, season-ticket renewals go out in February. It makes sense, then, to send the renewals to the right people. The people of Oklahoma City have spoken loud and clear: Send them to us. We will buy them and we will come.
They make a compelling case. The Hornets of OKC sold more than 11,000 season tickets, which, according to a team official, ranked them sixth in the NBA. The Hornets of NO were 29th in season-ticket sales. The Hornets of OKC were ranked seventh in attendance as of last week. The Hornets of NO were ranked 30th -- dead last -- in 2004-05. The OKC Hornets are drawing more than 4,000 fans a game more than the NO Hornets did.
It's been a remarkable tale. In a matter of weeks, the movers and shakers in Oklahoma City put together a number of lucrative sponsorships and the franchise now broadcasts games into two territories. The fans appear to be genuinely exuberant (although standing until the first Hornets basket is scored is a bit much) and more than 18,000 braved brutal weather last Wednesday to catch the Celtics in their only visit. The Ford Center was designed with NBA and NHL specifications and is a top-notch venue.

[Easy180]

Didn't say it wasn't patrick...Just in the beginning the ford center was built trying to land an NHL expansion team given the success of the Blazers...Wasn't anything on the NBA horizon when it was passed...Still wouldn't be if not for Katrina

[Patrick]

Didn't say it wasn't patrick...Just in the beginning the ford center was built trying to land an NHL expansion team given the success of the Blazers...Wasn't anything on the NBA horizon when it was passed...Still wouldn't be if not for Katrina

I can agree with that.