NBA for OKC- Hornets Relocating

[fromdust]

new orleans was a poor city and seemed to struggle with the hornets. we are also a pretty poor city. could we support the team even if was temporary? if they came and we showed the nba that we could support the team wouldnt or couldnt we rely on corporation buying season tickets, ecspecially the more expensive ones? not just business in okc but im sure businesses in tulsa would be interested too.

[jbrown84]

If we can't support it we can't support it, but we'll never know if we don't give it a try.

[thecains]

What other cities are in the Running for the team?

[Intrepid]

That's definately key. Say you went with $35 medicore season tickets for your family of four. That'd be $5740, net of Nacho Costs. Now, many families might drop that over the course of entertianing their family for 5 months, but that's a big bill all at once. Selling those season tickets and boxes is integral to the success of an organization.

BTW, Hornets tickets were selling for $20 to $350.

http://www.nba.com/hornets/tickets/seasontix_0405.html

That is my thinking exactly. Spread over a period of time, a family could possibly afford that. But all it once is asking a lot.

[Intrepid]

Although many here, Patrick included know, part of my platform is for a domed NFL stadium as part of MAPS III. We could have it up and running in two years after passage and regulatory approvals. Yes. Play in Tulsa for a couple of years.

mranderson,

First off, it was nice meeting you last evening. Sorry we couldn't have stayed longer.

I wanted to bring up something that we briefly spoke about at the game last night.

You mentioned how astonished you were that there wasn't a bigger crowd at the ballpark last night when all it took was a bottle of water to get in FREE. (we even mentioned how a 1-liter of Ozarka water is only $0.79 right now) If people aren't going to go to a free baseball game, to see a team that has made the playoffs, do you think they are going to shell out much more for a major league team?

PLease do not get me wrong here....I hope wholeheartedly that I'm wrong. I hope that we get the opportunity and I hope that it succeeds. But after the newness wears off, I just do not see the team consistently making money. I guess I'm just tired of all the other failed attempts in bringing, and/or maintaining, sports teams to OKC (Calvary, Wranglers, NHL, etc).

OKC is headed in the right direction, I truly believe that. But I believe that there is still a lot of work to be done. The cost of living here is low and incomes are lower to match, that's why, IMO, the cheaper sports entertainment (Blazers, Yard Dawgs and Redhawks) are so popular.

[mranderson]

mranderson,

First off, it was nice meeting you last evening. Sorry we couldn't have stayed longer.

I wanted to bring up something that we briefly spoke about at the game last night.

You mentioned how astonished you were that there wasn't a bigger crowd at the ballpark last night when all it took was a bottle of water to get in FREE. (we even mentioned how a 1-liter of Ozarka water is only $0.79 right now) If people aren't going to go to a free baseball game, to see a team that has made the playoffs, do you think they are going to shell out much more for a major league team?

PLease do not get me wrong here....I hope wholeheartedly that I'm wrong. I hope that we get the opportunity and I hope that it succeeds. But after the newness wears off, I just do not see the team consistently making money. I guess I'm just tired of all the other failed attempts in bringing, and/or maintaining, sports teams to OKC (Calvary, Wranglers, NHL, etc).

OKC is headed in the right direction, I truly believe that. But I believe that there is still a lot of work to be done. The cost of living here is low and incomes are lower to match, that's why, IMO, the cheaper sports entertainment (Blazers, Yard Dawgs and Redhawks) are so popular.

It was my pleasure meeting you. I enjoyed the evening.

Yes. I remember the quote on the water. However, baseball is the least popular sport in Oklahoma City, so it really is not a fair comparison.

The Cavalry failed because the owners failed to promote the team like the Blazers and the RedHawks are promoted. That would not happen with a major league franchise. The Wranglers failed because the team lost enough money to fill that U-Haul truck near the water drop area at SBC stadium. The move to Oklahoma City was gradually paying off, however, the league forclosed on the franchise, thus reposessing it. They operated it during the last year. The league said it was one of the highest drawing teams in the history of the AFL. They did not want to contract the team, however, it was because of outstanding debt caused in Portland. We (Oklahoma City) were proving we could support a major league franchise, but the cards were on the table before they moved here. No matter where they moved, the team would have been contracted. We were one of four franchises to be lost, so it was not lack of support. The NHL let St Paul counter-offer but did not let Oklahoma City counter-offer to be awarded the franchise. So, once again, it was not the fault of the city. That was the first time Oklahoma City has applied for a major league franchise, and we would have been selected had it not been for the unfairness of St Paul's counter-offer. No other city was allowed a counter-offer. For this city to be in the finals in their first attempt is, to me, success. We have proven we can be a contender.

The fact some teams have folded and we were sucker punched by the NHL is not really a good barometer to gauge the probability of success.

I have no doubt a major league franchise will be welcome with open arms and be fully supported. Will it sell out every game? No. Who does? Will it lose money in the beginning? Yes. I know of no buisness that does not lose money for a few years before showing a profit.

If the Hornets move here, even for one year, it will give the city a chance to prove we can be a major league city.

I may be pessimistic in a lot of areas, however, when it comes to sports franchises, air travel, probability of business success, and some other areas, I am quite opomistic. I also use a vast knowlege of business taught by my dad. That give me an insight most people do not have.

[okcpulse]

I wouldn't go so far as to say Oklahoma City is a pretty poor city. Our demographics have transformed quite a bit over the last five years, in about every aspect. We still do have a lower income average than many other cities, but the gap is disappearing.

To say Oklahoma City cannot support a franchise is playing dead. We'll never show this country what we're made of in terms of pro sports if we continue to pity our own city. Whether or not Salt Lake City's median income is higher than Oklahoma City's is not the point. Utah is still a rural and relatively poor state, still ranking in the bottom five in terms of per capita income. So is Louisiana. They both support major league franchise teams.

San Antonio has also been a relatively poor city. But with Austin nearby, the south-central region of Texas has remained a viable market for San Antonio's NBA team.

But all of that is beside the point. When Oklahoma City began landing big name concerts here in 2002, people came from all over to pay exuberantly high ticket prices for concerts. They'll do the same for NBA tickets. Especially if it's in Oklahoma.

We can say Oklahoma City can't support this... Oklahoma City can't support that. The day there IS a pro team in Oklahoma, is the day our attitudes will do a 180. Think about that.

In the mean time, with high gas prices, will ANY team in this country see a drop in attendance? It's possible.

[BDP]

Whether or not Salt Lake City's median income is higher than Oklahoma City's is not the point.

Median income is a big point in considerations. Whether we want it to be or not, owners look at it.

They both support major league franchise teams.

LA subsidizes their teams. Should we?

When Oklahoma City began landing big name concerts here in 2002, people came from all over to pay exuberantly high ticket prices for concerts.

This is a good point. We have drawn from major markets for concerts. But we won't draw from other markets that have teams (KC or Dallas, for example) except when we are playing their teams. Sports teams are a localized product by nature. Also, we have had some people paying $100 for a handful of concerts a year, but will they do that for 41 events in five months? I know we haven't had 41 concerts of over 15k people in a year, yet, let alone in 5 months. That would be the same as having about 100 concerts of 15k plus.

While it doesn't mean we can't do it, a major league sports venture is not on par with anything we have done before. While our concert support has been very good, it is not really the same thing as filling the venue 41 times a year for the same product.

We can say Oklahoma City can't support this... Oklahoma City can't support that. The day there IS a pro team in Oklahoma, is the day our attitudes will do a 180. Think about that.

When Oklahoma has a successful pro team, there will be no use for a debate at all. However, just saying that we can support it, doesn't make it so, either. I would be much more comfortable with the idea if there was more money in OK. Supporting a major league team is not on par with anything we have done so far, concerts or otherwise.

And I'm not saying it is impossible. I think you put a good team here and it will have some success. I think it is very possible for OKC to go against market indicators and overcome some of its demographics to support a major league team. It has happened elsewhere, but it would require some faith on the part of the owners, no matter how much we fluff the numbers. The Hornets situation is a good one for us, because we can offer a turnkey solution for the owners. Our infrastructure for an NBA teams is there and just waiting for someone to use it. That fact alone is the biggest thing working in our favor, and mitigates our shortcomings in other areas. It makes it a very low risk proposition for an owner, especially in the short term.

If the Hornets owners want an easy source of cash flow with no commitment for the 2005-2006 season OKC is a great choice. It would then be up to Oklahoma to show that it's ready to support such a venture.

Basically, what I am saying, and what I've been saying all along, is that Oklahoma can do this, but it is still a hard sell compared to other potential markets.

[Patrick]

The naysayers will always say OKC can't have this and that, can't support this and that. I say let's give it a shot, and if it doesn't work, then people can gripe. Unless we make an attempt to host an NBA team, how will we ever know if OKC can support one?

[BDP]

I say let's give it a shot, and if it doesn't work, then people can gripe. Unless we make an attempt to host an NBA team, how will we ever know if OKC can support one?

You're forgetting that the naysayers and the dreamers don't make the decision. The city doesn't even make the final decision. It is simply a business decision that is made by the owners. The owners are not going to just say, "hey, how do we know if OKC can't support it unless we try?". They are going to try and minimize their risk. They do this with prudent research and negotiation. It is not a question of faith or a measurement of people's belief in the city. It's simply an economic question. The fact is that we have given it a shot and are giving it a shot. People are trying to make this happen. There are reasons that we haven’t gotten a team to this point, and they have nothing to do with the naysayers.

You also have to realize that if a team is brought in before the city can support it and it fails, that will move the city down the list the next time it’s up for consideration, even if the other numbers look better at that time.

[Patrick]

At this point in the game, the Hornets don't have too many other decent options. I suppose KC is probably the best option financially, but they don't have a decent arena in place. If I were the owners of the Hornets, I wouldn't stay in Louisiana this year....there's no one in New Orleans to watch them play.

[Decious]

The brass of the New Orleans Hornets went to Baton Rouge today to scout possible locations concerning the upcoming season. Click on the link to hear a recent interview on ESPN Radio with Hornets General Manager Allan Bristow.

RadioInterview

[John]

Baton Rouge is questionable due to the scheduling conflicts with the LSU mens and womens basketball teams.

Kansas City's arena is subpar, and that's being nice.

Although I'm somewhat of a homer, I think Oklahoma City presents the best situation for the team at this time.

[swake]

San Diego and Las Vegas are now in the mix too

[Moondog]

The Hornets belong in New Orleans, now and forever. In the interim, they should stay in Louisiana. LSU in Baton Rouge is very much able to accomodate them. For those of you licking your lips at the thought of luring them here permanently because of this catastrophe: Shame on you.

Personally, I don't forsee any major league teams coming to Oklahoma--period. Major league teams are drawn to locales more progressive and prosperous than any city in Oklahoma.

I don't know how many of you have actually ever left this state, but people's perceptions of Oklahoma are horrible, and sadly their perceptions are pretty accurate. Those perceptions spill over into the business community. Ever notice how other cities in other states "get things" before we do. Ever notice how Oklahoma is usually the last to catch on when it comes to national things? We were one of the last places to get Starbucks. Verizon Wireless is only now beginning to talk about coming here. We don't have Costco. I can name several restaurant chains that are everywhere else but here. What companies are beating down the doors to do business here? When you mention Oklahoma out on the coasts, people laugh. Face it, no one wants to come here or do business in a place so proud to be "Conservative." No one wants to do business in a place famous for censorship, fat country singers and tornados.

[JOHNINSOKC]

The one thing I have yet to hear about is the fact that the Ford Center is completely debt-free and that fact alone would limit the overhead costs for a team and lower ticket prices. OKC is in a unique situation because of this. Believe it or not, this city was smarter than any other by not taking on debt over a number of years. Any owner, including the league should be salivating over coming to OKC.

[BDP]

The Hornets belong in New Orleans, now and forever. In the interim, they should stay in Louisiana. LSU in Baton Rouge is very much able to accomodate them. For those of you licking your lips at the thought of luring them here permanently because of this catastrophe: Shame on you.

Well, that's not what's going on. New Orleans and the Hornets are in a bad way, obviously. In order for the team to stay solvent, they need a place where they can operate with positive cash flow or receive a great deal of subsidizing, which, frankly, I feel would be a gross misdirection of resources given the thousands of lives affected by this tragedy. In any event, it means they have to move, at least for a period of time. If they can stay in LA and make it work, good for them. If it makes sense to move, OKC is an option and that is what is being discussed. The Hornets need a place to play more than any of the markets want to host them. It would actually be shameful to not offer our services. Doing so allows NOLA and LA to focus squarely on the grave issues facing them at this time.

No doubt this is a petty discussion in context of the events in the gulf coast. But given that it is an isolated discussion from which it is hard to garner what efforts or contributions those posting here have made to recovery or humanistic efforts in the region, it is short sighted and irresponsible to judge anyone's character in that way based solely on this thread or the operations of the Hornets.

As for your other comments, you forget one factor: change. Many here are very active in trying to change those aspects of Oklahoma you mentioned, both in reality and perception. In fact, I think the source of sentiment which offended you was directly tied to the idea by some that the presence of a major league team, even and maybe especially as an act of assistance, would help change some of the negative perceptions of Oklahoma.

[okrednk]

The Hornets belong in New Orleans, now and forever. In the interim, they should stay in Louisiana. LSU in Baton Rouge is very much able to accomodate them. For those of you licking your lips at the thought of luring them here permanently because of this catastrophe: Shame on you.

Personally, I don't forsee any major league teams coming to Oklahoma--period. Major league teams are drawn to locales more progressive and prosperous than any city in Oklahoma.

I don't know how many of you have actually ever left this state, but people's perceptions of Oklahoma are horrible, and sadly their perceptions are pretty accurate. Those perceptions spill over into the business community. Ever notice how other cities in other states "get things" before we do. Ever notice how Oklahoma is usually the last to catch on when it comes to national things? We were one of the last places to get Starbucks. Verizon Wireless is only now beginning to talk about coming here. We don't have Costco. I can name several restaurant chains that are everywhere else but here. What companies are beating down the doors to do business here? When you mention Oklahoma out on the coasts, people laugh. Face it, no one wants to come here or do business in a place so proud to be "Conservative." No one wants to do business in a place famous for censorship, fat country singers and tornados.

If your so anti-Oklahoma City why post on a board specifically for people interested in OKC. OKC is not a bad place to live, there will be a major league team eventually, the city can support it and will when the time comes.

Why not jump at a chance when it comes along, yes the catastrophe happened with New Orleans, but again that city built the levys which could withstand a category 3 hurricane, not a category 5. Stuff happens, yes and the whole country is helping out to fix one of the biggest cities this country has. Would OKC benefit from getting the Hornets for a year absolutely, would the Hornets -- should I even ask?

The perceptions you are talking about, is that how you feel about OKC? Why not do something to help change it instead of speak about it. Personally I feel this city has come along way. Yes it has a long way to go, but go to any city and tell me there is not something you will come back not agreeing with or disliking. To each their own.

Lets face it some things you said where just outright wrong. Places which OKC does not have, okay yes there are some in the country who do not have everything. Does everywhere in the USA have a Sonic? NO What about a Braums? Last thing, fat country singers. Really please don't post about things you do not have 100% facts on before posting. Oklahoma has produced some of the most recognizable country artists in the world. I can only think of a couple, Garth Brooks, Toby Keith, Reba McEntire, Ronnie Dunn (Brooks & Dunn), Ty England, Wade Hayes. This just to name a few. Oh yeah didn't that girl from Oklahoma win some reality show, American Idol?

Not trying to start an argument, just stating a debate about what you posted.

[jbrown84]

I have a feeling that these "outside perceptions" he talks about are really just based on his own perceptions, which IMO are misguided. I don't think people think about us as being backward or un-progressive. And to think that because we are conservative means we wont get a pro team? Look at Salt Lake City. You can't get much more conservative than the Mormon capital of the world, and yet--wait a minute, dont they have an NBA team?

[okcpulse]

The Hornets belong in New Orleans, now and forever. In the interim, they should stay in Louisiana. LSU in Baton Rouge is very much able to accomodate them. For those of you licking your lips at the thought of luring them here permanently because of this catastrophe: Shame on you.

Personally, I don't forsee any major league teams coming to Oklahoma--period. Major league teams are drawn to locales more progressive and prosperous than any city in Oklahoma.

I don't know how many of you have actually ever left this state, but people's perceptions of Oklahoma are horrible, and sadly their perceptions are pretty accurate. Those perceptions spill over into the business community. Ever notice how other cities in other states "get things" before we do. Ever notice how Oklahoma is usually the last to catch on when it comes to national things? We were one of the last places to get Starbucks. Verizon Wireless is only now beginning to talk about coming here. We don't have Costco. I can name several restaurant chains that are everywhere else but here. What companies are beating down the doors to do business here? When you mention Oklahoma out on the coasts, people laugh. Face it, no one wants to come here or do business in a place so proud to be "Conservative." No one wants to do business in a place famous for censorship, fat country singers and tornados.

I'm not sure how well you know people on this forum, Moondog, or any person in Oklahoma. But FYI, most of us HAVE traveled out of state, and out of the country. But since you obviously aren't familiar with economics or familiar with the marketing arena, I'd say you wasted your time with the post you wrote.

Are their bad perceptions of Oklahoma? Yes. Are they accurate? No. I'll break your post down for you.

You say Oklahoma prides itself on being conservative. No, sorry. No one in my life is proud of conservativism. In fact, everyone is accusing the state of being conservative, but I still have yet to shake the hands of a proud conservative. And I am very social.

You say Oklahoma is usually the last state to 'get things'? That's an assumption of a high school student. Oklahoma isn't the first state to 'get things' because of economics. Oklahomans usually have a very bad habit of pitting themselves against cities in California, Texas, Florida, Illinois and New York. But you forget, those states are the country's largest markets. Companies beat down the doors to do business in the largest markets before trickling down to North Carolina, Georgia, Tennessee, Arizona, and Washington.
The last states that usually 'get things' are your small market states... Arkansas, Nebraska, North Dakota, Montana, and the like. Or did you forget those states exist. By classification, Oklahoma is a middle-tier market state. Don't argue with me on this one, I learned about this in micro-economics class from a professor... from California. Did a suburb in Kansas get a Starbucks before Oklahoma City got a Starbucks? Yes. Why? Because Overland Park is a wealthy suburb of Kansas City...... Missouri. The market was there. Yet 24 other cities in other states were still without Starbucks when Oklahoma City got theirs.

You say no one will come to Oklahoma because of our conservative image. So you say the Mormon state of Utah, Salt Lake City, home to the Utah Jazz, is not conservative? In a state where the most stringest liquor laws exist? A state where virtually every form of gambling is illegal short of dog tracks? Not even Virginia, twice the population of Oklahoma, has a pro-team.

Fat country singers, tornadoes and censorship? Heck, you just described the entire south. Tennessee and Georgia have pro-teams. Oh, and so does North Carolina, and Missouri. I lost count of the religious billboards I saw along I-44 in Missouri between Springfield and St. Louis. The very state that serves as the national HQ for the Assembly of God Church.

Mention Oklahoma to coastal residents and they laugh? Based on my experience in New Jersey, Florida and New York, they were more curious than critical. Costco? The warehouse only sticks to the 30 largest metro markets. Restaurants? That's up to the franchisee. Gosh, did you take economics, or were you sick that day?

Sounds like you need to get out alot more. Does Oklahoma have its share of problems? You bet. But so does every state. That's just what it is. Nothing semantic.

[PUGalicious]

Well said, okcpulse.

As one who is a transplant to this state (19 years ago) and only lived in the metro area now for the last 9 years, I'm not Oklahoma born and bred. But this state and this city has won me over and become my adoptive home. Before moving to Oklahoma, I lived in nine other states, including along the East Coast (as far north as Virginia Beach) and along the Gulf Cost (from Florida to Texas). When I found out I would be moving to Oklahoma, I must confess that I was distressed. At that time, Oklahoma didn't have the best image just emerging from the oil bust. Additionally, I didn't know much about that state and expected the worst. I would agree with what other said; any negative impression of Oklahoma City is mostly based on ignorance.

When friends or relatives come to Oklahoma and spend a reasonable amount of time here and they visit various sites, especially in the last five years, they come away with a much more favorable view of our city and state. Other than my sister-in-law, who grew up in Chicago and thinks anything smaller than that is rural, all were impressed; she simply thought it was a little small for her, but liked it nonetheless.

As one who has lived in other cities, both large and small, Oklahoma City is uniquely special; there are few other places right now that I would want to move to. My reasons are practical as much as anything else: larger cities that offer more "amenities" also bring with it more traffic headaches, more crime and higher living costs. My brother lives in Houston and I can drive home (from middle-OKC to Edmond) and back to work and start back home again in the time it takes for him to drive one way to work. They have a lot of things there in Houston but it takes forever to get there.

I, as are many other people in this forum, am very excited about the direction OKC is headed. MAPS was the absolute best thing that has happened to our city in the last 10 years. Bricktown, even with its shortcomings, is a great place to spend time, whether as a family or as a couple. It has a great atmosphere. It's not as grand as San Antonio's Riverwalk or comparable destinations in other cities, but it is growing and with each new addition becomes more of a destination for metro residents and those who live outside the metro.

Many of Moondog's complaints were either based on ignorance or were simply unfounded. And I agree that his perception of others' perceptions is skewed by his own feelings. I would simply say, Moondog, that your perceptions are the exception rather than the norm. We like this city and we like the direction it's going (generally). You can either be a part of the solution in making it better or a part of the problem (by simply being a naysayer and complainer).

[mranderson]

It was announced this morning the NBA is touring the Ford Center this Friday. It appears to be between Kansas City and Oklahoma City. At least we are being recoginized.

[Patrick]

We'll beat KC hands down. Kemper Arena doesn't begin to compare to the Ford Center.

And to Moondog, if New Orleans wants the Hornets bad enough, they need to show their support. Unfortunately, the owners of the Hornets have stated that the franchise hasn't been too profitable in New Orleans thus far.

[Patrick]

I find it interesting how a news reporter is still calling our convention center the Myriad. Seems like by now people would get used to calling it the Cox Center.

-----------
"City's chance to host Hornets improves

By Dean Blevins
News 9

Hurricane Katrina's effects continue to be felt.


As we first reported at six the options for the relocation of the New Orleans Hornets are becoming less and less meaning OKC remains a viable option to the NBA.

Sources confirm the NBA is sending a site survey group to the city Friday.

They'll check out the Ford Center and also OCU where practices could be held.

Wednesday night, I contacted sources in several other cities being mentioned Tampa, Birmingham and San Diego all say their chances are slim to none.

The NBA in Vegas right now is a longshot-pardon pun.

That leaves Kansas City and OKC as the apparent frontrunners.

The Blazers would cooperate and move 9 home games to the Myriad to free up the Ford Center.

Mayor Mick Cornett had no comment other than to say OKC and the NBA hope things work out in Louisisana.

It's not impossible for Baton Rouge to be the new home. "

[okrednk]

If it does come down to OKC receiving the Hornets, I wonder how that will affect the name change. Also, if this ends up becoming a bigger deal than first realized and ends up staying in OKC, would the franchise end up creating a new mascot other than a hornet. Hornet would not really be that fitting in this state. Anybody have any ideas of what they might like to see. Not trying to steal anything from New Orleans and I do have sympathy for those who went through a terrible tragedy, but OKC is not blind to tragedy. After all this state still has tornados, right?

Just a few ideas, even if the Hornets don't come to OKC just something to stir up some conversation. After all we got to start warming up the idea for a future deal.