Is OKC Still Pursuing NBA/NHL Team

[okcpulse]

Scribe, you may stick by your claim about limited financial resources in Oklahoma to support a team, but I disagree. Look at Utah, a sparsely populated state, and one of the five poorest states in the country, have been supporteing the Utah Jazz for a long time. Even more, Salt Lake City is a less affluent metropolitan area than Oklahoma City, and has less corporate presence. Yet, Utah manages to keep its NBA team. You cannot pin a negative on fan base, because as an Oklahoman, it is a given fact that if a professional franchise were to locate here, loyal fan base grows quickly. Really, it is the American way, no matter how many statistics that are thrown into the argument.

[BDP]

1. 1.3 million metro with a potential fan base of five million (aprox)

Where does 5 million come from? Just break it down for me.

2. among the top 50 cities in the country both in metro and in proper, thus being a major city.

Why does top 50 make you major? What are the 50-60 cities that are not major? How many different cities have major league sports. Or, more relevantly, how many markets have major league sports.

3. The most central located major city in the nation.

How does this help define one as a major city. I agree it is an advantage, but it’s not one that I think we have taken advantage of. Besides, I think Salina, Kansas seems even more central than us and that doesn't make it a major league city and most major league cities are on the edge of the country.

4. Top 50 television market.

Again, I'm not sure top 50 excites anyone. The major leagues top out at about 30 teams and some of those teams are within the same TV markets (Jets/Giants, A's/Giants, Angels/Dodgers, Clippers/Lakers, Ducks/Kings etc.). What is our share of the total TV market percentage wise?

5. Among the largest cities currently with no major league franchise.

That's unfortunate. Maybe something else drives it.

6. Large sports fan base.

Definitely a strong per capita sports fan base, which may help with some of our other shortcomings.

7. Potential corporate sponsorship.

How does our corporate pool compare with our competitors?

8. Oklahoma City has at least two of the highest income areas in the nation.

What are they and where do they rank? I don't see any on the 100 top zip codes by adjusted gross income:

http://wealth.mongabay.com/tables/10...zip_codes.html

Only 6 states ranked below us in 2001-2003 in median income. Which is a better indicator since you have to consider the whole state and beyond to get a 5 million person fan base.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/incom.../statemhi.html

9. 73170 zip code is the third highest income area in the state.

That's good, but we’re competing with other markets on this and a few good zip codes relative to other zip codes in the area doesn't really mean much. How many zip codes with the same income of 73170 are found in competing markets?

10. Improving tourist city.

This is good and true. But how does it compare. We are improving, but we still have a long way to go to even get close to many major league cities and even those cities improve on themselves as well.

I don't see any negatives on that list either, but will any of it win us a major league team when compared to other markets trying to attract teams? It is not about how great OKC is or how much it has improved, but how it compares head-to-head with other prospective markets.

Again, I am not saying we won't get a major league team some day, but, honestly, most major league cities can top that list on just about every point. I know you know OKC better, but to win major league attractions you must know the competition better.

I'm actually more afraid that thinking we are already in position for a major league team is exactly what will keep us from getting one. In order to "Continue the Renaissance" we have to honest about where we need to improve.

[BDP]

Look at Utah, a sparsely populated state, and one of the five poorest states in the country, have been supporteing the Utah Jazz for a long time

I think Utah is a good case study. Salt Lake has done a lot to improve it's image as a major league city in the last 10 years or so. But the census does say that had the 12th highest median income in the country from 2001-2003. So, there may be a lot of people making nothing in Utah, but over half of them make more than 49k/year compared to OK's 36k.

Really, it is the American way, no matter how many statistics that are thrown into the argument.

Actually the American way is straight up capiltalism, which means the owners will follow the money and then try and get as big a hand out as they can.


http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/incom.../statemhi.html

[mranderson]

Where does 5 million come from? Just break it down for me.



Why does top 50 make you major? What are the 50-60 cities that are not major? How many different cities have major league sports. Or, more relevantly, how many markets have major league sports.



How does this help define one as a major city. I agree it is an advantage, but it’s not one that I think we have taken advantage of. Besides, I think Salina, Kansas seems even more central than us and that doesn't make it a major league city and most major league cities are on the edge of the country.



Again, I'm not sure top 50 excites anyone. The major leagues top out at about 30 teams and some of those teams are within the same TV markets (Jets/Giants, A's/Giants, Angels/Dodgers, Clippers/Lakers, Ducks/Kings etc.). What is our share of the total TV market percentage wise?



That's unfortunate. Maybe something else drives it.



Definitely a strong per capita sports fan base, which may help with some of our other shortcomings.



How does our corporate pool compare with our competitors?



What are they and where do they rank? I don't see any on the 100 top zip codes by adjusted gross income:

http://wealth.mongabay.com/tables/10...zip_codes.html

Only 6 states ranked below us in 2001-2003 in median income. Which is a better indicator since you have to consider the whole state and beyond to get a 5 million person fan base.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/incom.../statemhi.html



That's good, but we’re competing with other markets on this and a few good zip codes relative to other zip codes in the area doesn't really mean much. How many zip codes with the same income of 73170 are found in competing markets?



This is good and true. But how does it compare. We are improving, but we still have a long way to go to even get close to many major league cities and even those cities improve on themselves as well.

I don't see any negatives on that list either, but will any of it win us a major league team when compared to other markets trying to attract teams? It is not about how great OKC is or how much it has improved, but how it compares head-to-head with other prospective markets.

Again, I am not saying we won't get a major league team some day, but, honestly, most major league cities can top that list on just about every point. I know you know OKC better, but to win major league attractions you must know the competition better.

I'm actually more afraid that thinking we are already in position for a major league team is exactly what will keep us from getting one. In order to "Continue the Renaissance" we have to honest about where we need to improve.

1. Oklahoma has nearly four million people. You take the outlining areas and that creates at least one million more.

2. With the exception of Green Bay, name one major league city that is NOT a major city.

3. Any city with over 500,000 people is a major city. Actually, the starting point is at leats 250,000. We rank 45 proper and 29 metro.

4. With the exception of Green Bay, name a city with a major league sports franchise that is not a top 50 media market.

5. We can draw support from corporations across the country. Many of them sponsor teams that are not in their home state.

6. The other short comings are by eduating the public and erasing those negitave tapes in their minds.

7. Nichols Hills is among one of the wealthiest communities in the nation. Since the 73170 area code is the third wealthiest in the state (73120 is just ahead), then that gives Oklahoma City a lot of money.

[BDP]

2. With the exception of Green Bay, name one major league city that is NOT a major city.

I think you're confused. You pulled 50 out of a hat. I'm saying that there are less than 50. I don't think that a lot of non-major cities have major franchises. I'm saying that there are a lot of cities under your classification of major that do not have major league franchises and there are reasons for that.

Any city with over 500,000 people is a major city. Actually, the starting point is at leats 250,000. We rank 45 proper and 29 metro

That's pretty arbitrary. And as many markets grow faster than us, 500,000 means even less everyday. I'll give you that we're kind of a cusp city, but there are reasons that some similar size cities have teams and some don't. Money.

4. With the exception of Green Bay, name a city with a major league sports franchise that is not a top 50 media market.

Again, you're confused. There are several that are in the top 50 that do not have a team. I'm saying that being in the top 50 is not a strong argument. The top 30 seems to be a better starting point.

6. The other short comings are by eduating the public and erasing those negitave tapes in their minds.

I don't think any owner is going to not consider OK if the numbers are there relative to other markets. This doesn't take place in a vacuum. It's not about being a good market, it's about being a better market.

7. Nichols Hills is among one of the wealthiest communities in the nation. Since the 73170 area code is the third wealthiest in the state (73120 is just ahead), then that gives Oklahoma City a lot of money.

Based on what? Compared to whom? It's not in the top 100 in the nation in income. The fact that it is OKC's wealthiest community is actually not a great selling point compared to the elite neighborhoods of most major markets. It's a nice neighborhood, no doubt, but it's not going to impress many in a comparison of top neighborhoods.

Let’s do this. Find a city with a successful major league sports franchise than can not top us in market size, TV market, median income, and fan support and then let’s go get that team. That’s our only option right now.

[floater]

I wouldn't assume that Salt Lake City is poor. The county actually has a very good median household income -- $48,373.

SLC census stats:
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/49/49035.html

Portland also wonders how Salt Lake City is succesful at sports:

Buying Local
How Salt Lake City uses local ownership to trump Portland in big-league team sports.
BY CLIFF PFENNING



503 243-2122


Steel yourself, Portland sports fans: Tinier Salt Lake City next week will again demonstrate how it attracts major-league teams and Portland doesn't.

Salt Lake will host a June 4 doubleheader featuring its new Major League Soccer franchise in one game and a second match pitting the U.S. men's team and Costa Rica in a World Cup qualifier.

And it's not just in soccer that the Salt Lake region has proven a more appealing market for major-league team sports covered by one of the four big broadcast networks.

Salt Lake-which hosted the 2002 Winter Olympics and is home to a metro-area population about 60 percent Portland's-has a longstanding NBA franchise, as does Portland.

But Salt Lake also has Real Salt Lake in the MLS and an expansion franchise in the Arena Football League. Portland has the minor-league Timbers (see page 15 for interview with mascot "Timber Jim" Serrill) in soccer and no arena football team.

So what's Salt Lake got that Portland doesn't? Local ownership with deeper community roots that can build fan loyalties, say sports veterans in both cities.

Salt Lake auto dealer Larry Miller owns the top-draw Jazz of the NBA and the arena where it plays. Utah's Dave Checketts owns most of Real Salt Lake. And a Utah auto dealership group bought the AFL franchise.

"There's a commitment and a confidence that the area can support these teams," says Jeff Robbins, president of the Utah Sports Commission.

Drew Mahalic, CEO of the nonprofit booster group Oregon Sports Authority, says local ownership is a troubling issue.

"For whatever reasons, the affluent people in Portland just have not seen fit to use their resources to support pro sports franchises here," he says.

Other than locals Ken Hodge and Brian Shaw owning the junior-hockey Winter Hawks, it's a lineup of out-of-towners that own Portland's sports franchises.

Blazers owner Paul Allen lives in Seattle. California businessman Abe Alizadeh recently bought the Triple-A Beavers of baseball's Pacific Coast League and Timbers of soccer's A-League.

California fashion designer Angela Batinovich, who does plan a move to Portland, is the majority owner of a lacrosse franchise recently awarded to Portland in the increasingly trendy National Lacrosse League.

Jack Cain, a minority owner of the Beavers and Timbers, says local ownership was a key reason his Portland Rockies flourished for six years before the latest reincarnation of the Beavers arose in 2001.

"Being from Portland was a key to that success," says Cain, who ran the team with his wife, Mary. "I think a lot of people came out to the games just to support us."

Salt Lake City

Population, 2000: 181,743

Median age: 30

Metro population: 900,000

Pro sports franchises (2004-05 attendance averages): Utah Jazz, NBA (18,756); Real Salt Lake, Major League Soccer (20,770); Salt Lake Stingers, Pacific Coast League (5,857, '04); Utah Grizz, American Hockey League (4,800); Utah*, Arena Football League.

*Expansion franchise with team name to be announced later.

Portland

Population, 2000: 529,121

Median age: 35

Metro population: 1,500,000

Pro sports franchises (2004-05 attendance averages):

Portland Trail Blazers, NBA (16,594); Portland Timbers, United Soccer Leagues (4,769); Portland Beavers, Pacific Coast League (4,343, '04); Portland Winter Hawks, Western Hockey League (5,859); Portland*, National Lacrosse League.

* Expansion franchise with team name to be announced later.

Also, here's a look at how Salt Lake City sees itself. Big league or not?

http://deseretnews.com/misc/growth/feb08.htm

[mranderson]

I think you're confused. You pulled 50 out of a hat. I'm saying that there are less than 50. I don't think that a lot of non-major cities have major franchises. I'm saying that there are a lot of cities under your classification of major that do not have major league franchises and there are reasons for that.

No. Not out of a hat. Plus, I think you are not reading the message correctly. I said Oklahoma City was a major city. I did not say anything about non major cities and major leagues except for Green Bay.



That's pretty arbitrary. And as many markets grow faster than us, 500,000 means even less everyday. I'll give you that we're kind of a cusp city, but there are reasons that some similar size cities have teams and some don't. Money.

No. Every survey, incuding the US Cencus gives the criteria.



Again, you're confused. There are several that are in the top 50 that do not have a team. I'm saying that being in the top 50 is not a strong argument. The top 30 seems to be a better starting point.

No. I am not confused. I know there are some other top 50 cities. Again, you failed to read the message.



I don't think any owner is going to not consider OK if the numbers are there relative to other markets. This doesn't take place in a vacuum. It's not about being a good market, it's about being a better market.

Not neccessarilly.



Based on what? Compared to whom? It's not in the top 100 in the nation in income. The fact that it is OKC's wealthiest community is actually not a great selling point compared to the elite neighborhoods of most major markets. It's a nice neighborhood, no doubt, but it's not going to impress many in a comparison of top neighborhoods.

Not true. High income areas are always selling points.

Let’s do this. Find a city with a successful major league sports franchise than can not top us in market size, TV market, median income, and fan support and then let’s go get that team. That’s our only option right now.

Not true. We need to lobby for expansion as well as relocation.

[BDP]

OK. I'll help you out here. Being in the top 50 is not that big of a selling point. Being in the top 30 would be. When you refer to OKC being in the top 50 TV markets or top 50 population, it doesn't mean much in terms of major league sports franchises.

No. Every survey, incuding the US Cencus gives the criteria.

Uh, the census doesn't define major and minor like you have, they just give the numbers. Other surveys may define it, but that's arbitrary as well. Since we're talking about major league sports, no leagues of which are present in more than 30 markets, stretching everything to 50 may not apply. How do you convince an owner that we're one of the top 30 places to locate his team, when we're only in the top 50 of each of your examples?

Not true. High income areas are always selling points.

Right and, compared to other major markets, 73170 doesn't count.

Not necessarily.

Yeah, right. I forgot that owners don't want to be in the best market they can be in. I'm starting to think we can get a major league franchise tomorrow, if we just have him over to your place for Kool Aid.

We need to lobby for expansion as well as relocation.

OK. No league is looking to expand. Retraction may be more of a likelihood. But you think we should take our bottom end of the top 50 rankings and 73107 and ask them to expand their league to our state which ranks in the bottom ten for median income, which will have to pull out of state viewers for TV share and ticket sales and ask them to expand their league?

Look, I don't question the positive nature of your ideas and numbers for Oklahoma, but they just aren't very major league. Salt lake is great example as an exception. But even they kill us in median income and local ownership. We had an AFL team that wanted to be here and a league that wanted a team here, but, guess what, no one wanted to own a team in OKC, not even anyone local.

Again, if you can find a market with a major league team which OKC can beat in market size, TV market, median income, and fan support than I think you’re building a case and one worth pitching. This kind of tautological exercise of defining what you think is major and then putting OKC in it just isn’t very convincing. It surely isn't going to convince someone to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to put a team in OKC.

[Karried]

It surely isn't going to convince someone to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to put a team in OKC.

Good, now we have established this fact.... what will convince someone to spend millions of dollars? What can we do to start the process now to ensure a profitable future?

Rather than beat a dead horse, let's be proactive and make some decisions now to further our chances in the future.

[mranderson]

Karrie is correct. I am an optomist when it comes to civic improvement and our abilitiy to attract and maintain things. Obviously, there are people here who will not accept my points. So, we need to find a way to secure the team(s) and stop going in circles trying to convince me of something I refuse to believe.


Case closed.

[PUGalicious]

…stop going in circles trying to convince me of something I refuse to believe.

Case closed.

Par for the course.

To borrow a line from floater, "My mind is made up so don't confuse me with the facts."

[BDP]

i just realized that this thread started with a direct question and mranderson got us way off topic with his ramblings about city size and Tulsa. So I change all my answers to 'no'.

CASE CLOSED!

:tweeted:

[fromdust]

why doesnt bob funk spend the millions on a major team, instead of the millions he spends on the minors? then theres the billionaire, we need to talk to him.

green bay may be a smaller market but didnt they by that team ensuring that it wouldnt leave?

[swake]

They, The packers, are owned by the city, also, Milwuakee, a larger market than OKC is next door.

The real question is, is there a market, except for Green Bay, that HAS a NFL/NBA/MLB/NHL team that is smaller than OKC? I can't think of one. And no rounding on the numbers, city size does not count in the real world, it's all metro area and media market.

[floater]

Well, there isn't. We come very close to Jacksonville, though. From the 2000 Census:

1 New York--Northern New Jersey--Long Island, NY--NJ--CT--PA CMSA 21,199,865
2 Los Angeles--Riverside--Orange County, CA CMSA 16,373,645
3 Chicago--Gary--Kenosha, IL--IN--WI CMSA 9,157,540
4 Washington--Baltimore, DC--MD--VA--WV CMSA 7,608,070
5 San Francisco--Oakland--San Jose, CA CMSA 7,039,362
6 Philadelphia--Wilmington--Atlantic City, PA--NJ--DE--MD CMSA 6,188,463
7 Boston--Worcester--Lawrence, MA--NH--ME--CT CMSA 5,819,100
8 Detroit--Ann Arbor--Flint, MI CMSA 5,456,428
9 Dallas--Fort Worth, TX CMSA 5,221,801
10 Houston--Galveston--Brazoria, TX CMSA 4,669,571
11 Atlanta, GA MSA 4,112,198
12 Miami--Fort Lauderdale, FL CMSA 3,876,380
13 Seattle--Tacoma--Bremerton, WA CMSA 3,554,760
14 Phoenix--Mesa, AZ MSA 3,251,876
15 Minneapolis--St. Paul, MN--WI MSA 2,968,806
16 Cleveland--Akron, OH CMSA 2,945,831
17 San Diego, CA MSA 2,813,833
18 St. Louis, MO--IL MSA 2,603,607
19 Denver--Boulder--Greeley, CO CMSA 2,581,506
20 San Juan--Caguas--Arecibo, PR CMSA 2,450,292
21 Tampa--St. Petersburg--Clearwater, FL MSA 2,395,997
22 Pittsburgh, PA MSA 2,358,695
23 Portland--Salem, OR--WA CMSA 2,265,223
24 Cincinnati--Hamilton, OH--KY--IN CMSA 1,979,202
25 Sacramento--Yolo, CA CMSA 1,796,857
26 Kansas City, MO--KS MSA 1,776,062
27 Milwaukee--Racine, WI CMSA 1,689,572
28 Orlando, FL MSA 1,644,561
29 Indianapolis, IN MSA 1,607,486
30 San Antonio, TX MSA 1,592,383
31 Norfolk--Virginia Beach--Newport News, VA--NC MSA 1,569,541
32 Las Vegas, NV--AZ MSA 1,563,282
33 Columbus, OH MSA 1,540,157
34 Charlotte--Gastonia--Rock Hill, NC--SC MSA 1,499,293
35 New Orleans, LA MSA 1,337,726
36 Salt Lake City--Ogden, UT MSA 1,333,914
37 Greensboro--Winston-Salem--High Point, NC MSA 1,251,509
38 Austin--San Marcos, TX MSA 1,249,763
39 Nashville, TN MSA 1,231,311
40 Providence--Fall River--Warwick, RI--MA MSA 1,188,613
41 Raleigh--Durham--Chapel Hill, NC MSA 1,187,941
42 Hartford, CT MSA 1,183,110
43 Buffalo--Niagara Falls, NY MSA 1,170,111
44 Memphis, TN--AR--MS MSA 1,135,614
45 West Palm Beach--Boca Raton, FL MSA 1,131,18
46 Jacksonville, FL MSA 1,100,491
47 Rochester, NY MSA 1,098,201
48 Grand Rapids--Muskegon--Holland, MI MSA 1,088,514
49 Oklahoma City, OK MSA 1,083,346
50 Louisville, KY--IN MSA 1,025,598
51 Richmond--Petersburg, VA MSA 996,512
52 Greenville--Spartanburg--Anderson, SC MSA 962,441
53 Dayton--Springfield, OH MSA 950,558
54 Fresno, CA MSA 922,516
55 Birmingham, AL MSA 921,106
56 Honolulu, HI MSA 876,156
57 Albany--Schenectady--Troy, NY MSA 875,583
58 Tucson, AZ MSA 843,746
59 Tulsa, OK MSA 803,235
60 Syracuse, NY MSA 732,117
61 Omaha, NE--IA MSA 716,998
62 Albuquerque, NM MSA 712,738
63 Knoxville, TN MSA 687,249
64 El Paso, TX MSA 679,622
65 Bakersfield, CA MSA 661,645
66 Allentown--Bethlehem--Easton, PA MSA 637,958
67 Harrisburg--Lebanon--Carlisle, PA MSA 629,401
68 Scranton--Wilkes-Barre--Hazleton, PA MSA 624,776
69 Toledo, OH MSA 618,203
70 Baton Rouge, LA MSA 602,894
71 Youngstown--Warren, OH MSA 594,746
72 Springfield, MA MSA 591,932
73 Sarasota--Bradenton, FL MSA 589,959
74 Little Rock--North Little Rock, AR MSA 583,845
75 McAllen--Edinburg--Mission, TX MSA 569,463

[floater]

The 2003 American Community Survey makes these estimates for Jacksonville and OKC:

Jacksonville, FL MSA 1,155,378

Oklahoma City, OK MSA 1,085,072

[mranderson]

The 2003 American Community Survey makes these estimates for Jacksonville and OKC:

Jacksonville, FL MSA 1,155,378

Oklahoma City, OK MSA 1,085,072

Which is part of my point. In both major leagues and other areas.

[PUGalicious]

Population is but just one part of the puzzle.

[floater]

Just because I'm in a table-showin' mood, gross metropolitan product -- the amount an (P/C)MSA region produces -- gives an idea of how much wealth there is in those cities. From the US Conference of Mayors:

http://www.usmayors.org/70thAnnualMe...troNations.pdf

[swake]

And I count 12 cites larger than OKC, most if not all of which are probably wealthier, have NO team. And for a franchise, you don't just fight those twelve, but the even larger cities that are missing one or more of the major sports. Around here you have Kansas City for the NBA and NHL or San Antonio for NHL, NFL, MLB, there are cites that will try to get teams that are two or three times larger than OKC, the only shot you have is if someone with a spare $250-500 million to spend wants to own a team and place it in OKC.

[PUGalicious]

Just because I'm in a table-showin' mood, gross metropolitan product -- the amount an (P/C)MSA region produces -- gives an idea of how much wealth there is in those cities. From the US Conference of Mayors:

http://www.usmayors.org/70thAnnualMe...troNations.pdf

That certainly provides some context.

[BDP]

If I counted right, floater's table puts us at 65th when only looking at US cities.

[BDP]

I'd like to ask Swake, our resident OKC hater from Tulsa, if he would support a team located in OKC. How about if we only named it after the state and not the city, like the Titans did. It's clear from the numbers thrown around here (even mranderson's numbers) that we would need Tulsan support to make it work. Granted its anecdotal, but I think if Swake would come down for a game or two, then otheres would be interested as well. So how about it, Swake, would you pull for the home team if its home was in OKC?

[In_Tulsa]

BDP would come to Tulsa if we got the team?

[floater]

I have seen little support language from Tulsans on the boards. At most they've analyzed why good things have happened here, but rarely have I heard them say anything supportive or congratulatory.