Wheeler Park

[Dubya61]

Does anyone know if the OKC Zoo is maxed out on land (without taking more)? If money were no object would the OKC Zoo like to ditch it's aquatic efforts and open up a Wheeler Park Aquarium? And then expand it's non-aquatic stuff? Should it take all of it's aquatic life out and move it to Wheeler Park? All the freshwater but none of the seawater life? Just the stuff native to Oklahoma? Duplicate it's efforts leaving a token display in the Adventure District but focusing on Wheeler Park? I'm not sure if I'd consider a trip to the zoo complete without an aquatic section. I guess all I'm saying is, Jedicurt: Let's say your the OKC Zoo emperor for a day. How would you do it? or would the Wheeler Aquarium compete with the OKC Zoo?

[Bellaboo]

I thought the reason for the Central park was to get rid of a large blighted area which was attached to the Central Business District, but if someone from Jacksonville, FL that gets off telling Oklahomans what that are doing wrong then maybe we should do away with at least half of our parks. But, I guess we could also consider that we might be building these for our future children or grand children.

JTF (Kerry) is from Oklahoma, just been out of town for a while.....

[BrettM2]

JTF (Kerry) is from Oklahoma, just been out of town for a while.....

I think it is the communication "style" that causes more issues than where he's from or living at now. His points would be better taken without the "holier than thou, smarter than thou" tone that many of his posts take (not saying it is intentional, but many of them definitely feel that way). My two cents on the matter...

[Dubya61]

I think it is the communication "style" that causes more issues than where he's from or living at now. His points would be better taken without the "holier than thou, smarter than thou" tone that many of his posts take (not saying it is intentional, but many of them definitely feel that way). My two cents on the matter...

I know where you're coming from, but JTF (I think) must gets to the point sometimes when it feels like he's the only one saying the right things. Yeah, he does come across as "holier than thou" once in a while, but those times mostly are when he's retreading old ground. Maybe it just happened that he was having one of those days. Maybe it was you. JTF means well and generally comes across well, IMHO.
Also, JTF still has a stake in OKC, even if mostly emotional.
Finally, it is a message board where we can freely share ideas. We don't all present our ideas in polite context and we don't have to embrace every idea we see. I'll be some people see my name at the top of a post and just gloss right pass my (IMHO) thoughtful comments.

[jedicurt]

Does anyone know if the OKC Zoo is maxed out on land (without taking more)?

I do think the OKC Zoo is pretty much maxed out on land... it's got the lake to the east, science museum and MLK to the west... 50th to the north, and the golf course to the south... there might be a little bit of land left, but not much.

And i think a lot of zoo's have gone away from having a traditional Aquarium, and moved them into the other exhibits, (kinda like the fish in the Oklahoma Trails exhibit, and the Snapping Turtle if they ever get that space finished). And with our next major phases of redevelopment being the African Savannah area (where the rhino's currently are) and finishing up the Asian area to the south, i think this is where our zoo is heading. So perhaps moving out Ocean life into it's own Aquarium space outside of the zoo is something they could do (and incorporate fresh water life as well, if they so choosed). And they keep raising money for their musuem, which is just such a small little building right in the middle of their just finished Elephant exhibit, i think this land could be better used, and move their idea of having traveling exhibits and a history of the zoo along with an Aquarium at Wheeler park... i don't think it would compete with the zoo, i think (especially for the museum (or Zooseum as they keep calling it) it would greatly benefit from being downtown more and having it's own exposure as to exhibits that come through (like the dinosaur exhibit they had a few years ago)

[stdennis]

I think the zoo has enough room for a new ocean area (since they are dividing the spaces on location instead of type of animal) they have 3 options that i can see quickly.

First they can redo the current one and add on. The underground stuff can be about deep ocean life. They have plenty of space to the north and north east(where the bears used to be and between 50th and the research building (i think that's what it is)) and to the west where the butterfly garden is and the red pandas all the way to the Herpetarium(even it since they are moving it) they can expand the current building and the new areas can be either different ocean areas or different levels of the ocean. with a larger area for dolphins, sea lions, seals, sharks and small whales.

here is a picture of the area
Attachment 2763

Second they can tear down the current one and rebuild in that same area (the first is more likely given their choice of not shutting down exhibits for the most part.

Third and the most grand and would give them a lot more space is if they partnered with the science museum and built a new parking garage (they could probably build a 5 level garage on half the science museums lot and still have the same room amount of parking they both currently share. This would leave them with their parking lot and the science museum with half of theirs to expand on. They could close 52nd and expand over that or just build a bridge/tunnel to connect the two.

Attachment 2764

They could then build the new ocean center on the parking lot area and they would then have the area that i highlighted in the previous picture to build a new exhibit.

[Snowman]

Does anyone know if the OKC Zoo is maxed out on land (without taking more)? If money were no object would the OKC Zoo like to ditch it's aquatic efforts and open up a Wheeler Park Aquarium? And then expand it's non-aquatic stuff? Should it take all of it's aquatic life out and move it to Wheeler Park? All the freshwater but none of the seawater life? Just the stuff native to Oklahoma? Duplicate it's efforts leaving a token display in the Adventure District but focusing on Wheeler Park? I'm not sure if I'd consider a trip to the zoo complete without an aquatic section. I guess all I'm saying is, Jedicurt: Let's say your the OKC Zoo emperor for a day. How would you do it? or would the Wheeler Aquarium compete with the OKC Zoo?

It depends on what you mean by maxed out, they are unlikely to be adding more acreage to the current property, however if you are talking about land for expanding the current Aquarium they could easily double (possibly triple) the building footprint without impeding other exhibits on existing land. If that size is not big enough then some of the lake could be converted back to land and built on. If they expanded southwest where the current paths are essentially just landscaped ramps it would encourage them to make it at least two stories.

[Urbanized]

The OKC Zoo is far from maxed out; it owns well over 400 acres, only 119 of which are developed. Also, their 20 year master plan calls for a large-scale renovation of Aquaticus in a few years. That is pretty likely to happen thanks to the zoo's dedicated funding and normally very successful fundraising efforts. Historically anything that makes the master plan gets done. I'm not sure if that plan calls for aquarium expansion, but if so the existing footprint of Aquaticus could be more than doubled in the same location by growing to the north and west, incorporating the land formerly occupied by the cat grottoes, which are now abandoned and screened off from the path that cuts between them and the aquarium.

And please, bite your tongue about needlessly filling in any portion of Northeast (Zoo) Lake. It is spring fed and has existed in the same basic form for around 100 years. It's a wonderful amenity for the zoo, including the view and cooling it provides, plus the swan boats, the Safari Voyage my company runs, and easily-accessible fishing for the public.

To bring the thread full-circle, I will point out that the park this thread is about (Wheeler) was the original home of the OKC Zoo, which is itself older than the state of Oklahoma (1904) and the oldest zoo in the southwest.

[kevinpate]

While it's not cut from the exact same piece of cloth ... As OKC is bringing tall buildings back to DT, and, as OKC is brining streetcars back to downtown, and as OKC is bringing new life to old buildings DT (excluding Stage Center, but hey, no city is perfect), then maybe thinking about bringing som portion of the OKC Zoo back to its original stomping grounds isn't all that farfetched.

I absolutely agree there is no reason to even consider filling in park of the lake at the zoo.

[jedicurt]

To bring the thread full-circle, I will point out that the park this thread is about (Wheeler) was the original home of the OKC Zoo, which is itself older than the state of Oklahoma (1904) and the oldest zoo in the southwest.

And this is exactly why i want to do something to this park that acts as a reminder of its history

[Just the facts]

I don't think you guys are realistic about having any part of the Zoo at Wheeler Park but if you wanted to see how much you could accomplish on a parcel that size checkout the Chattanooga zoo. It isn't a bad little zoo but it would be tough to have 2 zoos in OKC. They would only steal attendance from each other. However, if this idea ever was attempted I think Central/Promenade Park would be a better location. If OKC is going to succeed in reinventing itself we can't follow up urban sprawl with park sprawl, attraction sprawl, and amenities sprawl. We need to keep things compact and close together so we can extend the usable hours past 9AM-5PM Monday thru Friday.

http://www.chattzoo.org/

[jedicurt]

I disagree with that assessment... in my experience (and i have a lot of experience) in visiting both Zoos and Aquariums. I find that they seem to attract two completely separate groups of people. Sure there is a lot of overlap between the two, and those people would probably still continue to go to both. But i think there would be quite a bit of people who currently do not go to the zoo, who would go to an Aquarium that was by itself. Just go to Tulsa to see this occur. And if they were to build their Zoosuem away from the zoo as well and put it more downtown, i think the exhibits that they get would draw an even bigger appeal. I know several people who did not go see the Dinosaur exhibit when it was at the Zoo because they didn't want to deal with having to navigate the whole zoo just to go see the exhibit, and people who frequently go to the zoo would probably still travel down to Wheeler to go see the exhibit if they really wanted to. I think they would lose little, if any, in attendance numbers at the zoo by moving the Aquarium and/or Zoosuem to wheeler, and i think the Aquarium would have a draw all it's own that was not previously there.

now is that new draw enough to justify a move, or could this new draw even pay the bills to keep it open. that is the real question. But i think it is very realistic to think that a Metropolitan area of this size could support both a Zoo and an Aquarium.

I know that if it were operated by the zoo, and even if it was a completely different Zoo friends type membership. i would have both. so that on very nice days i would still probably go spend a few hours at the zoo, but when i was downtown or wanted to get out on those extremely hot, or extremely cold days, i would go frequent an Aquarium.

[jedicurt]

It would also have a draw all to its own simply due to the location of it. I'm about 100x more likely to take my kids to events or activities in the downtown area because that is where we live. The more people move to downtown, the more and more that will be true. That is why I think it could be a real asset to the Zoo. It will capture revenue it might actually miss out on otherwise. If we connected the two with an express train, it could be even better.

You and i are on the same page

[jedicurt]

Sid, you live downtown currently... how long of a walk do you think it is from where you live to Wheeler Park as it currently is? Just curious

[jedicurt]

The OKC Zoo is far from maxed out; it owns well over 400 acres, only 119 of which are developed.

Do you happen to have something that says and/or shows the 400 acres? all i am finding when looking online are articles defining the zoo as being 120 acres which is what you are saying is the developed land. I'm not questioning you, as i have come to rely on you for many other things that have been said on this board. I just personally can't find it, and would like to have that info at my disposal

[jedicurt]

Currently we are in Deep Deuce, so sort of on the opposite side of Downtown. I haven't really clocked it. We meander quite a bit and with three kids, their short legs just only go so fast. I think it takes us right around 30 minutes to get down to the river. Maybe we will walk down to Wheeler this weekend and I'll clock how long it takes.

However, a N/S Robinson streetcar would dramatically improve that trip time. We'd only then have to walk west to Robinson and then east a couple blocks after we got off at SW 10th. Just saying.

I agree... i can't wait for Phase 1 of the streetcar so that we can start looking at expansion of it.

[Just the facts]

Are you talking just an aquarium at Wheeler Park or other types of zoo animals? I still think there are a lot better places for an aquarium than being so far removed from tourist areas around downtown.

[jedicurt]

Are you talking just an aquarium at Wheeler Park or other types of zoo animals? I still think there are a lot better places for an aquarium than being so far removed from tourist areas around downtown.

I think all that has been mentioned has been an Aquarium... and would it be so far removed by the time it was built? And there might be better places, but do those places bring along the history that comes from having it at Wheeler Park?

For the record... i would be opposed to another full blown zoo at wheeler park. yes, that would pull visitors from both places.

[Dubya61]

In what? just a couple of months? I have become a fan of the "like" option -- which doesn't exist in the OKCpedia section!
"Like" from me for all of the recent comments.
JTF: I respect your opinion a LOT, but think that it would be cool to take a smallish section of Wheeler Park and build an Aquarium that interacts with the river. I think it should be done by the Zoo people, but be an aquarium only, with the exception of the Zooseum exhibit. If the zoo does it, they should move all their aquatic exhibits there, and focus on non-aquatic stuff in the Adventure District (which may have to rename itself once the boathouses are completed and the zipline is installed over the river). The river interaction should especially highlight Oklahoma native stuff. If we're allowed to dream big on this project, I think it should include some underwater walkways and some water cleaning methods employed upstream a bit (but not too clean -- this IS Oklahoma, land of the red dirt).

[Just the facts]

How is it removed from 'tourist areas'? It is really close to Bricktown, the Stockyards, Boathouse District, and the most visited site in all of OKC, the Oklahoma City National Museum & Memorial.

So why not build it closer? The Crystal Bridge is closer to PHF than it is to Wheeler Park and how many people are making that walk? If you put it at Wheeler Park you ensure that 95% of the people get there by car.

The National Memorial is only 500' further to the State Capitol than it is to Wheeler Park.

[Fantastic]

This is only an issue because downtown doesn't have a very urban transit system. A fact that I expect will change with the introduction of the streetcar as well as just based on conversations I've had with Mr. Cain. There is definitely more focus on transit downtown coming.

Extremely good point Sid!

Look, I don't know about everyone who is talking about this, but I'm looking at this as a long term development. I don't know if it could happen in a year, or five or ten. I just think the idea is very cool. And if it were to happen 5-10 years from now the dynamic of the downtown area will no doubt have changed dramaticaly. Wheeler is in a great place to bring together alot of future developments. It's location creates a natural connection to the Farmer's Market, the River, the park, and Hubcap Alley, all areas that are either currently being redeveloped, or will see redevelopment in the future. That redevelopment could naturally be accompanied by improvements in transit. And we really don't know what is going to happen in the south section of Riverside. It is believed that it will be residential, but who's to say that it will only be residential. If Riverside develops a more vibrant mix, an aquarium could fit nicely.

AND let's not forget... This tread is NOT about an aquarium, it IS about Wheeler Park and it's eventual redevelopment. Personally I love the aquarium idea and realize that it is just one componet to that redevelopment. But for those of you not interested in the idea, let's try to stay away from getting too deep into criticizing it. Rather than trying to point out why it wouldn't work, tell us what WOULD work there. What would be something to bring people to the area and improve the overall quality of life not just in Wheeler Park itself, but also in the surrounding area.

[bluedogok]

What type of "aquarium" is being discussed? A publicly owned aquarium/museum like the Texas State Aquarium or one like the private Aquarium Restaurants attraction by the Landry's restaurant group like they have in Denver, Houston, Nashville and Kemah.

[Plutonic Panda]

You could build an aquarium with a Rainforest Cafe' attached. Now that would be cool!!! lol

[Just the facts]

What type of "aquarium" is being discussed? A publicly owned aquarium/museum like the Texas State Aquarium or one like the private Aquarium Restaurants attraction by the Landry's restaurant group like they have in Denver, Houston, Nashville and Kemah.

I think they are talking about moving Aquaticus out of the zoo so that the zoo can expand into that space with other animals. They could then move Aquaticus downtown and make it bigger. I like the idea, I am just not crazy about the location. Nearly every walking study I have seen limits most people's walking distance to under a 1/2 mile. I know from my own family that if we went downtown to the Memorial or OKCMA there is no way my wife is walking to Wheeler Park to go to Aquaticus. To me, moving Aquaticus to Wheeler Park is no different than trying to use Stage Center as a children's museum. You don't start with the location and try to find 'something' to go on it - you start with the 'something' and then find a location for it.

[catch22]

If you give people a place to walk to and keep them entertained, they will walk great distances.

Last month I was in Chicago for the day. I walked 20 miles. Yes, 20 miles. From Gold Coast down through Navy Pier, down to Soldier Field, the Planetarium, the Aquarium, then back up into downtown and all the way over to Sears Tower and the Loop. Literally walked 20 miles over a 11 hour stay. I mapped it out when I got home.