The Underground

[Pete]

There were lots of people against the last modest renovations but if the system is going to be there, might as well paint it and replace the carpet from 30 years ago.

Recently, SanRidge said they would be reopening the section that connects to their tower. And of course, Project 180 is paying to connect Devon Tower with an enclosed walkway through the City Center East parking garage.

[Pete]

Part of the renovation was to have included more access points from the street, with signage.

But that was largely nixed because a lot of people felt it was a bad idea to encourage foot traffic to head underground rather than stay at street level. There was to be a prominent entrance on Broadway adjacent to Chase Tower, for example.

[Pete]

I actually used the system quite a bit when I worked downtown in the 80's. It protects you from the elements and also allows you to circumvent street lights.

The heart of the system is the First National Arcade which is more of less the center of it all. For a while, the arcade was really thriving with Harold's, Orbach's and other nice mall-quality stores. That seemed to feed the entire network as there were many more restaurants and even shops down below in the 70's and 80's.

I remember Liberty Bank had operations down there when they occupied what is now Chase Tower; perhaps even teller windows?


OKC Conncourse Late 1970's by tikitonite, on Flickr

[Just the facts]

I prefer signage right in the walkway so pedestrians can see them easily. Many cities actually put street names inside the concrete in brass letters to make it easy for pedestrians to see where they are.

Not to change the subject but here are the pedestrian oriented street signs in downtown Jax. And that grey area in the middle of the interesection is pretty rough which slows down traffic.

[Just the facts]

I can easily agree with the desire to see more street traffic. But until it is filled with sand, I want to see it easier to find.

Filled with sand or not - I hope no one finds it. It is not part of symbiotic relationship with the sidewalk. It is actually killing the host. Sandridge spends untold millions on a new corporate plaza - and then connects to the underground.

[Urbanized]

...I remember Liberty Bank had operations down there when they occupied what is now Chase Tower; perhaps even teller windows?

Still there; now they're Chase teller windows. Also a couple of glass-front offices with lending/customer service staff. Of course, teller windows are not used nearly as much now so most windows are unmanned. Bancfirst also has teller windows in the Underground, BOK if I remember right (I don't make it to that part often).

[PhiAlpha]

Removing the underground to add to street traffic is not logical, is unreasonable, and easy to say if you don't work downtown or even live in OKC. Really its almost selfish to vie for that if you dont work down here. It is a very nice luxury to have when conditions outside are inclement. I'm sorry but I and likely most of downtown would much rather walk underground when it's raining or temperatures are too low or high (wearing a suit to work everyday gets painful when it's 110 with 80% humidity). If it wasn't already there, I wouldn't suggest building one but as long as it is, it would be stupid to stop using it.

[dankrutka]

Boom goes the dynamite!

[Just the facts]

Yep - it never gets hot, humid, or rains here in Jacksonville. I guess that is why we manage to live without an underground.

[PhiAlpha]

Like I said, there is a difference between not ever having a tunnel system and some hardcore urban design proponents deciding it's a good idea to close one that is already in place and heavily used just for the sake of improving street traffic.

That's great that you don't have a tunnel system in Jacksonville but we do and many people enjoy using it. if you like walking outside during extreme heat, humidity, and rain, that is your perogative, but it is very convienient to have the option to avoid it.

Again, it's very easy to condem something you never use from afar, but those that use it probably disagree with you.

[Just the facts]

Somehow I think you would manage to adjust and the street life in OKC would be better for it. But alas, it isn't going to be closed so it doesn't matter.

[Double Edge]

Part of the renovation was to have included more access points from the street, with signage.

But that was largely nixed because a lot of people felt it was a bad idea to encourage foot traffic to head underground rather than stay at street level. There was to be a prominent entrance on Broadway adjacent to Chase Tower, for example.

One of the issues with that is the tunnel runs through private property and many if not all of the access points are private property. Not all of those property owners are on the same page about providing access, spending money on improvements, nor goals for the tunnel others might have. For instance, the last time I made a tour of it after the remodel, the Skirvin kept their access unlocked, which may be some long ago agreed upon requirement, but they had no signs and large potted plants strategically placed to give the impression the path was not open.

As far as filling it in, that's never going to happen. It could be closed to the public but part of the function is a utility tunnel, which also explains to some extent why it isn't more commercial in nature, it wasn't designed for that.

[OKCisOK4me]

Yep - it never gets hot, humid, or rains here in Jacksonville. I guess that is why we manage to live without an underground.

LOL, how do you even know if, theoretically, a underground was built in Jacksonville that your fellow Jville'ites wouldn't use it? God forbid, OKC becomes Morlock City. ;-)

Incase you don't know, the whole week here is highs in the upper 70's and although it's somewhat humid, I guarantee you people are taking advantage of the warm temps and walking the sidewalks downtown.

[Just the facts]

Downtown Jax doesn't have enough people on the street as it is, we sure don't need to be taking what little foot traffic we have and spreading it across 2 leves. If built I am sure people would use it, and street level buinesses that rely on foot traffic would go out of business.

[OSUPeterson]

The Underground was kinda diasspointing to me. Ive heard all the cool things about it over the years and now there seems not to be much of anything down there.

The only time I have been in it was during the Runderground 5k that was through the tunnels, but I only saw 1 or 2 storefronts down there and it was mainly a lot of hanging pictures and neon lights.

I would love to see it developed more, having some small local shops and quick food establishments.

[Just the facts]

I would love to see it developed more, having some small local shops and quick food establishments.

Wouldn't you rather see that at the street level?

[OKCisOK4me]

Downtown Jax doesn't have enough people on the street as it is, we sure don't need to be taking what little foot traffic we have and spreading it across 2 leves. If built I am sure people would use it, and street level buinesses that rely on foot traffic would go out of business.

Yeah, I don't really know all that much about J'ville but theoretically and hypothetically you're agreeing. I agree with you. I enjoy seeing the foot traffic.

[Just the facts]

Now that I actually think about, with few exceptions - downtown is nearly completely void of any business whose doors open to the sidewalk. Maybe that is the missing ingredient.

[Urbanized]

Portland, Oregon is an example of a city that requires retail uses on street level. No offices.

[Just the facts]

Portland, Oregon is an example of a city that requires retail uses on street level. No offices.

Granted I don't live in OKC so it is hard to tell, but going off memory and Google StreetView there just are not many doors (retail, office, or otherwise) that open to the sidewalk. Even if retail was mandated, most access would be through building lobbies.

[Urbanized]

You're right that not a lot do open to the sidewalk. The few that do are generally retail/restaurant/financial. Reatail tenants would demand sidewalk entrances where possible.

[HOT ROD]

this should change, more storefronts and more with their own door (hence, dictating their own hours....)

[Snowman]

Filled with sand or not - I hope no one finds it. It is not part of symbiotic relationship with the sidewalk. It is actually killing the host. Sandridge spends untold millions on a new corporate plaza - and then connects to the underground.

The underground and individual entrances seems unlikely to be blamed for killing the host (hampering growth even seems arguable), the initial build out that made the underground a system was a response to the decay of the migration of people and stores out of downtown. The lack of individual entrances seems more a function of changes of building design past the 50s/60s and were built as islands to them self mixed with wholesale destruction of older buildings.

[OSUMom]

Somehow I think you would manage to adjust and the street life in OKC would be better for it. But alas, it isn't going to be closed so it doesn't matter.

So you really think there would be some big benefit in making people walk 3-4 blocks in the rain? What kind of street traffic is that? They will be hurrying to get to where they are going! Not strolling along adding to whatever you think the benefit would be. Trust me, people only use it regularly in bad weather. It doesn't pull from the 'street traffic' any other times.

[ljbab728]

So you really think there would be some big benefit in making people walk 3-4 blocks in the rain? What kind of street traffic is that? They will be hurrying to get to where they are going! Not strolling along adding to whatever you think the benefit would be. Trust me, people only use it regularly in bad weather. It doesn't pull from the 'street traffic' any other times.

Kerry, isn't big on practicality. He also wants everyone to be going to work on bicycles when it's raining or snowing.