Unions versus the city and state?

[Kerry]

If you think I am going to defend the stupid management at GM you're crazy. Those bad managers at GM are the same ones that approved the union contracts. Stupid is as stupid does.

[Joe Daddy]

If you think I am going to defend the stupid management at GM you're crazy. Those bad managers at GM are the same ones that approved the union contracts. Stupid is as stupid does.

Actually, YOU blamed the union, not GM management. Speaking of stupid, one more time: Same union, same agreement, Ford makes a profit. So are you trying to suggest Ford had incompetent management?

You just keep painting yourself into a corner.

[Kerry]

Of course I blame the Unions. What do you think the Unions would have done if GM had rejected the contract?

FYI - it might be the same UAW but the contract with Ford is not the same contract they have with GM or Chrysler. The contracts are negotiated separately. Russell Westbrook and Kevin Durant are in the same union and they play for the same team but their contracts are different.

[Joe Daddy]

Of course I blame the Unions. What do you think the Unions would have done if GM had rejected the contract?

FYI - it might be the same UAW but the contract with Ford is not the same contract they have with GM or Chrysler. The contracts are negotiated separately. Russell Westbrook and Kevin Durant are in the same union and they play for the same team but their contracts are different.

OK smart guy. Outline the specific differences.

[mugofbeer]

But you're wrong. Union dues don't go to political causes. Instead, they have special funds set up for that purpose for members to give to on a volunteer basis. And it wasn't about a little more money. When I joined a work place that had a union in it, my pay doubled over what I had been getting in a non unionized place.

Oh Bunty, you really don't believe this do you? All that money used to pay for commercials during the political elections, all that union money going directly to political candidates just appears out of thin air? Bunty, unions have played a significant part in the demise of American industry by attaining wage levels that have helped make their products non-competative in today's world. Poor management decisions have certainly played a huge part but that doubling of your pay is a prime example of how that may be good for your for a while but when faced with competition from India, China, Mexico, Korea, etc., it's a short-term benefit. Pay doesn't even include the excessive benefits many unions have been able to secure. If there is hope for America to compete in todays world, the compensation packages simply have to be adjusted. Unions still have a role to play but its no longer one that can afford to be political or adversarial. America will no longer dominate world economics. We have to be competative.

The example of Wisconsin is simply a small-scale Greece.

[barnold]

mug- are you really that ignorant? Oh course it doesn't appear out of thin air. It's amassed over years of "VOLUNTARY" contributions by members who are tired of being lied to and railroaded by city leaders. It's called prior proper planning. You don't think this thing just happened overnight do you? This sentiment has been brewing since Gary Marrs was fire chief. Now it would appear that the War Chest is being tapped for a small job and the Chamber is having to scramble to match funds. We didn't create this game, we've just learned how to play it by their rules. Live with it.

[Double Edge]

Does anyone remember when former labor commissioner Brenda Reneau issued the work place labor-law posters with the spot in the middle to tell employees they had the right to not pay the union for items unrelated to collective bargaining, such as donating to political causes, and then when that got shut down they left a blank spot for the employer to print and attach their own text? I still have one of those.

For many, it's voluntary as long as they know it's voluntary and take the steps to not be a volunteer.

Some history:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_n10113633/

[mugofbeer]

mug- are you really that ignorant? Oh course it doesn't appear out of thin air. It's amassed over years of "VOLUNTARY" contributions by members who are tired of being lied to and railroaded by city leaders. It's called prior proper planning. You don't think this thing just happened overnight do you? This sentiment has been brewing since Gary Marrs was fire chief. Now it would appear that the War Chest is being tapped for a small job and the Chamber is having to scramble to match funds. We didn't create this game, we've just learned how to play it by their rules. Live with it.

Barnold, unions don't amass the hundreds of millions they spend on political campaigns on "voluntary" contributions by members - unles you call union dues "voluntary." You may be speaking of an isolated local issue. I'm talking union behavior in general. Live with what? I'm just making an observation - who asked you to get personal?

[rcjunkie]

mug- are you really that ignorant? Oh course it doesn't appear out of thin air. It's amassed over years of "VOLUNTARY" contributions by members who are tired of being lied to and railroaded by city leaders. It's called prior proper planning. You don't think this thing just happened overnight do you? This sentiment has been brewing since Gary Marrs was fire chief. Now it would appear that the War Chest is being tapped for a small job and the Chamber is having to scramble to match funds. We didn't create this game, we've just learned how to play it by their rules. Live with it.

I've heard several times from friends and relatives on the Fire Department about these so called "VOLUNTARY" contributions, quite laughable.

[Joe Daddy]

Barnold, unions don't amass the hundreds of millions they spend on political campaigns on "voluntary" contributions by members - unles you call union dues "voluntary." You may be speaking of an isolated local issue. I'm talking union behavior in general. Live with what? I'm just making an observation - who asked you to get personal?

Mugs, all unions have separate PAC funds and hold drives to fund them. All union dues ARE NOT MANDATORY. How much money in dues do you think they actually collect? You're a financial guy - I bet you could figure it up really fast.

Only about 10% of the American labor force is unionized. According to BLS, there are 14.7 million workers represented by unions. All 14.7 million DO NOT pay union dues due to right to work laws, but they recieve the exact same pay and benefits.

The average annual dues in the United States is $377 per year. This figure includes professional athelete unions, actors unions and others, so this average number is somewhat skewed upward. Some dues go to strike funds, like UAW, and when the strike fund remains at $500,000,000, those union dues are rebated back to the members locals.

But for arguments sake, lets say all 14.7 million workers decided to pay dues, and there were zero rebates back to members and locals:

14,700,000 x $377 = $5,541,900,000.

Seems like a lot of money doesn't it? The dues money goes toward representing members through the collective bargaining process. The collective bargaining team wages, attorneys, arbitrator fees, court fees, utilities on union buildings, leases, support personnel wages, office equipment, strike funds, retirement funds, health insurance, etc. Same expenses as any business pays, excepting the strike funds.

Compare the union dues collected, again, ASSUMING 100% of workers actually paid dues (many did not) and that the unions of the mega millionaires like the like NBA, NFL, MLB, HNL, Actors Guild, etc. actually contribute to political causes, to just one American corporation:

Union dues $ 5.5 Billion total revenue collected.

Wal-Mart $14.7 BILLION PROFIT!

How about that Mugs? One single American corporation made $9.2 BILLION more in profit than all unions combined collected in dues before expenses and taxes.

Now folks, can we please put the myth to rest about all that "big labor" money being funnelled into politics?

Unions v. corporations = David v. Goliath, and this ain't a bible story; Goliath is killing David in reality.

Look it up for yourselves: http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortu...hots/2255.html

[barnold]

mug- my apologies if you felt I was getting personal. I was referencing only our local and state unions and not the national levels when it comes to PAC's. The PAC's are 100% voluntary in my local. RC spouts more lies of what he does not understand. Maybe he should ask his friends and relatives of the fire department what the difference is between a PAC, PR or regular union dues. I don't enjoy politics or politicians but they are easier to deal with when you know the rules of their games. Alot of people within the Locals are becoming well versed on their games and it's pissing them off that we know how to play now.

[Wambo36]

I've heard several times from friends and relatives on the Fire Department about these so called "VOLUNTARY" contributions, quite laughable.

Come on junkie, please elaborate on what you know from whoever supposedly told you. Be specific so we'll all understand it as well as you do. Or have you already gone beyond your limited knowledge on the subject?

[Bunty]

The higher pay of union members that helped encourage many non-unionized companies to have decent paying jobs surely played quite a major role over the years toward a more prosperous America. I feel high union pay had little to do with jobs going overseas, because with such jobs only paying .25 to .50 an hour, the unionized manufacturing American jobs probably could have been paying half as much and, yet, taking such jobs overseas would still look mighty attractive.

[rcjunkie]

Come on junkie, please elaborate on what you know from whoever supposedly told you. Be specific so we'll all understand it as well as you do. Or have you already gone beyond your limited knowledge on the subject?

They all say the VOLUNTARY contribution you speak of is a joke, you either donate or your treated like you have the plague, of course you'll deny this, but we know you speak as they tell you to speak and what they want you to speak. Try being an independant thinker for once, you might find it refreshing.

[Wambo36]

They all say the VOLUNTARY contribution you speak of is a joke, you either donate or your treated like you have the plague, of course you'll deny this, but we know you speak as they tell you to speak and what they want you to speak. Try being an independant thinker for once, you might find it refreshing.

I see. So you're saying that although the contributions are strictly VOLUNTARY, as we've said all along, that someone you're related to or know is feeling a little intimidated, because they don't want to VOLUNTARILY contribute. Not sure who your relative or friend is junkster, but give him/her a little advice from me, tell him/her I said to grow a pair and stand up for him/herself. That he/she was even asked or shared that he/she wasn't contributing or intended to not contribute tells me he/she is easily intimidated and or lacks self esteem. Maybe a genetic thing, ya think? At my station I don't have any idea who does or doesn't contribute to these funds and they have no idea whether I do. For that matter I could be the only one who belongs to the union at my station and I wouldn't know it. You see, that's VOLUNTARY also.
So yeah, thanks for admitting that it is VOLUNTARY but your relative or friend lacks the intestinal fortitude to stand up for his/herself.
And that part about independent thinking, coming from you, was a real hoot. Thanks and come again.

[barnold]

RC- Wambo summed it it pretty nicely. Let me just add that about the time I think you may have a shred of decency and a hint of brain in your head you spout BS like your previous post. You truly are nothing more than an instigating moron that believes he was in management. You supervised HS and a small crew of adults mowing lawns part time; and contrary to posts in your other forum you were not loved and revered by all.

[Pete]

I'm closing this thread. Just in the last page I see countless examples of name calling and personal attacks.

I'm getting very close to banning a whole bunch of people if you don't stop getting personal and cease with the insults.


I understand people are passionate about these issues but there is absolutely no reason to ever get personal. Disagree, debate the points... That's all fair game. But the minute you start addressing someone personally rather than talking about a point that has been made, you've crossed the line.


I'm getting really tired of the emerging tone on all these threads and it's starting to leak into the rest of the boards. This is meant to be a forum where everyone can come to discuss Oklahoma City-based issues. If you cannot do that without resorting to grade school bickering, your posting privileges will be revoked.