General Urban Development

[Platemaker]

gen70...

I wonder if you really mean the Shidler-Wheeler neighborhood.

In Top of the Town the homes are older and plain but are still in good shape and very very few vacant lots... Shidler-Wheeler has a bunch of vacant lots and also has Central Ave. (which used to have a streetcar) as the main artery and a large park (Schilling Park)... interestingly there is also a synagogue with a Spanish-speaking congregation.

Shidler-Wheeler boundaries Oklahoma River/Shields/SE 29th/High
Top of the Towns boundaries are High/I-35/SE 15th/SE 25th

[shane453]

Large-scale developments are great, and I agree the area between 8th and the tracks would be awesome for something really big.

However, I don't really think OKC has a shortage of "large scale" developments and developers. A lot of our developments are on a large scale. What we really need are some more small scale infill developers to come into near-downtown areas and build simple 3-4 story apartment buildings with 4-10 units, or individual buildings with commercial/residential mixes. If we had more small-scale developments, the pace and extent of development would really seem increased, and developers could work with areas that already have some built structure to them. For me, completing urban areas is more important than opening new areas of development.

[Platemaker]

If it were up to me... I'd develop NW 10th and Metro Park/Rock Island warehouse area. Some of the older homes and apartments are great... plus it has some hills so most homes (especially on the north side of streets) are elevated from the street and have steps up to the front doors.

[BG918]

Where is Top-O-Town?

The area I am talking about is larger than all of downtown so there is plenty of room to re-urbanize and almost all of it is vacant land. I checked the property appraiser web site and most of the lots are in the $1000 range with only a few being more than $10,000. You could probably buy most of the area for $250,000 to $300,000. It could be OKC's Back Bay area.

If there was ever an area that could resemble Back Bay it would be Deep Deuce with more infill in between Walnut and the RR tracks from NE 1 to NE 5.

[Kerry]

If there was ever an area that could resemble Back Bay it would be Deep Deuce with more infill in between Walnut and the RR tracks from NE 1 to NE 5.

The thing is though, even if Deep Deuce was built out (and it will be soon) it is still a small area. The area I am takling about is the size of Deep Duece, Bricktown, and downtown combined.

Imagine this type of development on the space I am talking about (minus all the surface parking).

[OKCRT]

My grandparents live there, plus my old house. So I would have an issue with people tearing anything down. They tore down all the houses along Kate when they rebuilt I-35. I grew up there and I know about how good the views are.

I am talking about the area like 12th,13th,14th east of Central Ave.but west of I-35.
South of 15th has some decent housing for the most part. But,I would pack heat if I were going to spend a lot of time there.

[betts]

Lose the faux Italian, Kerry, and I'd be more for it. I'm hoping that anything we do will be a bit more contemporary and less suburban. Edmond is faux Italian paradise.

[Kerry]

Sid - I just used those as an example for a single entity doing one mass project vs waiting for 200 different property owners to do something on each of their own little plots. That is the problem with Bricktown and is why after 20 years and several hundred million dollars there is just a small handful of retailers. It is hard to market to national retailers if there is not a single managment company in charge.

[Rover]

Lose the faux Italian, Kerry, and I'd be more for it. I'm hoping that anything we do will be a bit more contemporary and less suburban. Edmond is faux Italian paradise.

Yeah. I agree. Let's not do any faux. Let's keep it strictly original to Oklahoma because everything else is faux. So, what is that anyway then....tepee or mud brick dirt houses?

I love that a lot of what people want to save are actually gothic or euro design and were faux then, but were built earlier in our statehood so everyone thinks those are great. Now we want old looking but not faux. If the old train station and its Spanish mission style was being proposed today, I guess we wouldn't want it because it is faux. Or the old Baum I'm seeing posted on here...seems like it would be a stretch today as it certainly is faux. LOL

[betts]

The thing is, Rover, it's nice to have a mixture and trends come and go. I've seen all the EIFS Italianate "architecture" I can stand right now. I am certainly not interested in a square mile of it. If you look at the old Italianate, Spanish and Tudor buildings in places like Nichols Hills and Heritage Hills, they have much nicer details than anything currently being built, were built with real stucco and brick, had tile and slate roofs and they're intermixed with Colonial revival and a variety of other architectural styles. The Baum building almost assuredly had carved stone, which is almost prohibitively expensive now. A few Italianate buildings are fine, although EIFS makes me want to choke and it's hard to say that knowing we probably wouldn't get real stucco. But let's mix it up a bit and make it look less like a preplanned villlage. That's all.

[Kerry]

Rover, I think their complaint is more about fake building materials and not fake architecture.

[Snowman]

Betts, I was talking about the area south of 8th St and it is on the proposed downtown to Adventure District rail line. The area has 3,900 feet of track frontage. Parts of it would also be within walking distance of streetcars that serve the Health Sciences Center. Here is a picture of the area. The red and black lines are street car routes and the purpole line is the Adventure District Rail-link. The While line is commuter rail between Tinker and Yukon.

Is the proposed line between Yukon and Tinker stops posted somewhere? That route seems to go out of the way on purpose to/from Tinker, either continuing east over the river or going south from the station then crossing their are both more direct routes.

[UnFrSaKn]

Finally managed to track down interior photos of the Baum Building. From the early 50s.







Probably some of the last photos.





I noticed from looking at old photos that the smaller finials/spires used to have ornaments on the top, but they were taken off or fell off in the 40s.

[UnFrSaKn]

Don't be nice. I think the Century Center is an abomination.

Here's a photo of buildings that once stood East of Sheridan and Robinson where Century Center is now.



http://dougdawg.blogspot.com/2006/07....html#Majestic

[UnFrSaKn]

This is an appropriate flashback for the next few days.

[Spartan]

Where is Top-O-Town?

The area I am talking about is larger than all of downtown so there is plenty of room to re-urbanize and almost all of it is vacant land. I checked the property appraiser web site and most of the lots are in the $1000 range with only a few being more than $10,000. You could probably buy most of the area for $250,000 to $300,000. It could be OKC's Back Bay area.

We have Deep Deuce. Not the Back Bay. This area is not a priority development zone and won't be for a few decades. That's just the way it is, because of the sheer volume of empty land in the current priority areas as it is. I don't even know if 20 years from now we will have completed Bricktown, Deep Deuce, Midtown, et al. And then we have Core to Shore south of downtown...we don't need another Core to Shore east of downtown. You know I'm not against development obviously, but it just has to be done strategically. There's not a lot of demand in OKC, comparatively, and even less gets turned into development. I'm certain OKC will pick up, but that's still too much of a stretch really.We have a lot of different burners turned on right now. I just want the soup to come out alright.

The area around downtown between Shartel and Penn has even more potential IMO. The only way we ever get this much development is if we implement an urban growth boundary and find a way to kill the addition of even more suburbs that don't yet exist. That will never happen.

[Kerry]

Is the proposed line between Yukon and Tinker stops posted somewhere? That route seems to go out of the way on purpose to/from Tinker, either continuing east over the river or going south from the station then crossing their are both more direct routes.

The lines on tha map are my vision - nothing official. The Yukon/Tinker Line I have drawn makes a loop around bricktown so the train can pull into Santa Fe Station without having to back up. I started working on a web site with all of my rail ideas including ride-along videos but I just got a new EVO 4G so my attention has shifted for awhile. Here are my inital stops on the Yukon/Tinker Line.

Main Street - Yukon
Kilpatrick Turnpike - Park and Ride lot
Fairgrounds
Santa Fe Station
Indian Cultural Center
S. Air Depot - Midwest City
Tinker AFB (includes I-40 Park and Ride lot)

[Kerry]

We have Deep Deuce. Not the Back Bay.

Deep Duces is too small and has too many property owners (and is almost built out) to be part of any large scale development. Deep Duece is a collection of small developments that happen to be next to each other. If you look at some of the recent mega-developments taking place around OKC like Tuscana (232 acres) or the Village Verde (480 acres) then you have to ask yourself, why are they recreating urban developments in suburbia when there is plenty of room by the Heath Scinece Center (188 acres in the area I shaded) to create urban development in an urban area? Probably the biggest draw back is the vast number of property owners in the area and that is something that would have to be over-come but that is the same problem Bricktown and Deep Deuce have - too many people all wanting to do their own thing with different motivations. I would like to see someone buy these vacant lots for a mega development.

Maybe making the comparison to Back Bay was a bad idea - Country Club Plaza would have been a better example.

[Kerry]

One thing is for sure UnFrSaKn - I was born 40 years too late.

[Spartan]

If you look at some of the recent mega-developments taking place around OKC like Tuscana (232 acres) or the Village Verde (480 acres) then you have to ask yourself, why are they recreating urban developments in suburbia when there is plenty of room by the Heath Scinece Center (188 acres in the area I shaded) to create urban development in an urban area?

Although I'm not holding my breath on those two specific examples, you're spot-on. That's probably the million-dollar question with new-urbanism. And by the way, sometimes you phrase things kind of weird, and you overlook sort of "sexy" or glamorous locales for very...un-glamorous locales. It's kind of weird, but here I'll show you an example, with the way I'd put it in red..

Main Street - Yukon
Kilpatrick Turnpike - Park and Ride lot
Downtown Edmond/UCO area
Fairgrounds
Santa Fe Station
Downtown transit hub
Indian Cultural Center
AICC/Riverfront/Core2Shore
S. Air Depot - Midwest City
Midwest City Town Center
Tinker AFB (includes I-40 Park and Ride lot)

Not really sure I agree with those lines, like the Fairgrounds for example, but those might be different phraseologies that could help some of us on here quarrel less with your ideas!

[Kerry]

I hear what you are saying Spartan. I don't want to hijack my own thread (ah what the heck - I started it) but here I go anyhow. The Yukon/Tinker line doesn't go to Edmond/UCO Area. I also have a Norman/Edmond route.

Here is an explination of the stops.

Main Street - Yukon. Station will serve downtown Yukon area and surrounding neighborhoods. It is the western terminus.

Kilpatrick Turnpike. this is park and ride station serving Kilpatrick Turnpike and I-40. There is very good potential for high density TOD around the station.

Fairgrounds - In addition to the state fair there are numerous other events that take place there that are of interest to people from all across the metro area. The area can also serve as over-flow parking for downtown events like Red Earth and Festival of the Arts. South of tracks could be used for TOD.

Santa Fe Station/Central Hub - self explanatory


Indian Cultural Center - this is the only way that facility would served by rail

S. Air Depot - TOD potential and close to what ever becomes of Heritage Park Mall.

Tinker/Town Center - the station is actually located right next to the town center and across I-40 from Tinker. I don;t think there is any way the Air Force would all ow the train directly on to Tinker. The station would actually be located in the area of abonded house north of the run way. Transfer bus service to Tinker would be available via a secure loading area. The station would also serve as park and ride for I-40. Due to the runway there would be little TOD potential.

Since this line is heavy rail it can't stop every mile which is why I did not have it stopping in Core to Shore or Meridian.

[Snowman]

Although I'm not holding my breath on those two specific examples, you're spot-on. That's probably the million-dollar question with new-urbanism. And by the way, sometimes you phrase things kind of weird, and you overlook sort of "sexy" or glamorous locales for very...un-glamorous locales. It's kind of weird, but here I'll show you an example, with the way I'd put it in red..



Not really sure I agree with those lines, like the Fairgrounds for example, but those might be different phraseologies that could help some of us on here quarrel less with your ideas!

Main Street - Yukon
Kilpatrick Turnpike - Park and Ride lot
Downtown Edmond/UCO area <-- their is no way to get their from the two stops around it, wrong end of the turnpike
Fairgrounds
Santa Fe Station
Downtown transit hub
Indian Cultural Center
AICC/Riverfront/Core2Shore <-- a stop like this was the reason I thought that it might have taken that route
S. Air Depot - Midwest City
Midwest City Town Center
Tinker AFB (includes I-40 Park and Ride lot)

[Kerry]

AICC/Riverfront/Core2Shore <-- a stop like this was the reason I thought that it might have taken that route

That area is served by my streetcar. Riders can transfer from commuter rail to streetcar at the downtown hub. There is not any point serving the same stop with two different rail systems. That would be duplication of service and a waste of resources which are going to be in short supply as it is.

[Snowman]

That area is served by my streetcar. Riders can transfer from commuter rail to streetcar at the downtown hub. There is not any point serving the same stop with two different rail systems. That would be duplication of service and a waste of resources which are going to be in short supply as it is.

then the train should just go south from santa fe, their is no point switching three tracks to end up having to end then take the same switch south of the new i40 to the track to tinker.

[Kerry]

No doubt that there will need to be a major re-work of the tracks on the south side of downtown to create an east-west alignment out of Santa Fe station. Removing the Co-op and lumberyard will go a long way towards solving this problem. It doesn't help that there is a pretty good elevation change to get up to the elevated tracks.