Some negative observations on OKC (warning: negative)

[Jethrol]

As with family, he probably will defend OKC to outsiders more than any one (but can talk freely about us, amongst ourselves). "I can say anything about my Mother because she is MY Mother, but don't you dare say anything bad" type of thing.

Good point

[Jethrol]

I
Oklahoma City is a terribly incestual bubble. Now before I get "flamed", I don't mean this as an insult in any way. What I am saying is that it's incestuous in attitude for the sole reason that OKC people are desperately trying to shape, form, and protect a "OKC culture". For the longest time, OKC has not had a defined voice amongst other US cities, but it is trying.

And here lies OKC's #1 problem: in an effort to define the city as "purely OKC", most community planners and leaders in the city are looking to other cities for influence and precedence. The oxymoron is that in an attempt to make OKC individual, they have made a patchwork of the ideas and methods used in other cities. Thus, it doesn't have a voice at all!

One could easily make the argument that everything has been done already so we simply need to look to other cities and adapt. I mean canals aren't new to cities, neither are arenas, high rise and/or loft apartment living spaces, neither are theme parks. Why "reinvent the wheel"? As the saying goes, "Good engineers invent, great engineers steal."

OKC does have a culture and I don't agree that it's incestuous. Many people think that bigger is better and anything other than full throttle growth is bad. I don't agree.

OKC has changed radically over the last 15-20 years and it will continue to do so. I for one applaud out style of living and look forward to the future.

[BG918]

My concern is that many people in OKC spend too much time telling Gen X and Y that they would do better in other cities rather than encourage them to stick around and make their mark in our local culture. The professors at UCO did it when I went to college their, teachers in high school did it, and even their peers encouraged them to move to Dallas or DC or wherever.

Let's say that over a span of five years, 10,000 young professionals left for other cities. Imagine if they were encouraged to stay and create businesses of their own. That would be 10,000 more individuals that would be ganging out at local establishments after hours, 10,000 more votes for thing like maps and selling wine in grocery stores, 10,000 more customers at Whole Foods or Crest Fresh Market. The climate is better today in OKC for such people to make that decision on their own. But it certainly would help if so many people in our city weren't so self deprecating.

I personally think it's better for people to live in multiple places, preferably different regions of the U.S. and even a foreign country, before settling somewhere. The people I know that have done this are much more cultured and intelligent than those that were born, grew up, went to college, and then settled in the same place. I'm not saying everyone is like that, but that's my personal experience. And I do know people who have done that and are very open-minded, cultured, etc. but they also traveled extensively especially abroad.

In my opinion, Oklahoma needs more people from other states and other countries and not more of our own staying here. There are plenty already that do, and there needs to be a good number that stay but that needs to be balanced evenly with transplants bringing new ideas to the state. Except for the energy and aerospace industries, and things like higher education (especially OU and OSU) and the military, there aren't many other sectors that are attracting talent outside of the state to Oklahoma which is what we need.

[Taggart]

I don't think there is a need to create an OKC culture or identity. We already have one...a western city built on oil, manufacturing, and agriculture. What we want to be is a modern city with great amenities. Look around, isn't that what we've been doing the past 20 years?

Yet, go talk to people in other cities and they wish their city was doing some of the things we are.

For anything to be a success it has to have its own identity. In the same breath, people will say we're just as good as Dallas, Nashville, Austin, or Seattle, yet describe OKC in generalized terms like "A western city built on oil, manufacturing and agriculture". The people in OKC throw around terms like "Big league city" in aspiration, yet are unwilling to embrace creativity as a necessity to become one.

Also, it's easy to confuse "identity" with "gimmick". An identity spans greater than just the look of a place or being able to call it "native american" or "cowboy" or "western". Those are "themes", which, unfortunately many surrounding cities have marketed to death. Albequerque, in example, is a good blend of New Mexico identity. Oklahoma has a rich history, albiet young.

One could easily make the argument that everything has been done already so we simply need to look to other cities and adapt. I mean canals aren't new to cities, neither are arenas, high rise and/or loft apartment living spaces, neither are theme parks. Why "reinvent the wheel"? As the saying goes, "Good engineers invent, great engineers steal."

I'm not saying OKC shouldn't have these things, just that they need to be planned based upon what can give the city and original flavor. How can it be done different? Asking how we can create a new definition of what a city can be is not a pointless question. In answering this question, certainly similar means of other cities will come up to some extent. The originality comes in when redefining how a city serves its people is the main focus.

I would highly argue that filling a city with replicas of what others have is far more "artificial" and "Disney World" than coming up with one's own aesthetical flavor. The city's youth is not a detriment, but makes the challenge that much easier.

[skyrick]

We moved from OKC to Arlington, TX in 1988. I must say that the changes I've seen in the last 10 years, on my visits to family, are encouraging. But it's discouraging to see what's declined.

I lived around 44th and S. May from '74 to '84 and, while not the most upscale part of OKC, it was at least clean. Now the whole of S May looks like a 3rd world country. NW 23rd between Western and Robinson always seemed to have so much potential, but it looks abandoned now. Harvey Park looks shabby now, compared to what I remember.

I lived in a house at 17th and Shartel from 72-74 and am really glad to see how that area is looking now. The same goes for Mesta Park and the district encompassed by Shartel, Western, NW 36th, NW 50th. I like the N. Western Restaurant area too. Nice to see Paseo with a second (or third, or fourth) life.

Sometimes, while visiting, I think that living in OKC again might not be too bad. But when I get back home to Arlington and realize that I'm addicted to a great newspaper (Dallas Morning News), season tickets to the Texas Rangers, Whole Foods, Central Market, movie theaters with reclining seats-floor to ceiling digital screens- in seat food service- and no one under 18 admitted, and a literal plethora of truly great restaurants in either Arlington, Dallas or Fort Worth, I realize that, for me, OKC can be a nice place to visit, but I still don't want to live there.

[Pete]

There was an article today about Californians moving to Oklahoma, and all the people they profiled were from here originally or had other strong ties.

This repatriation will happen more and more frequently as OKC and the job market continue to grow.

However, it should be pointed out that the large majority of people that move away never come back. In fact, of the people I know (and I maintain my high school class database of almost 1,000 plus know hundreds more from college) I'd say more than 90% that leave stay gone.

So, I always assume when someone leaves the area (young or otherwise), they won't be coming back. That's just human nature due to forming a new life elsewhere and also wanting to avoid the feeling of moving backwards (in the sense that you've already "been there, done that").

[adaniel]

I read that article on NewsOK as well, and everyone they profiled was older or had a family. I'm not saying thats a bad thing, it just struck me as interesting. And it actually said something to the effect of "while many young professionals leave Oklahoma for California...."

Just thinking about all of the people I knew that I went to school with at OU and are living in the area, not one would say they don't like it here or this is somehow a "bad" place, and many would defend it if given the chance. But a lot would agree that there are better places. Whether thats grass-is-greener syndrome or post collge angst about spreading you wings and trying somplace new is way above my head. Its complicated, and OKC is hardly alone in trying to figure out how to get young people to stay or even move here.

One a side note, there was another story written by the AP no less about what a mess Tulsa is in right now. So I guess things could always be worse.

[dankrutka]

On the same day that you had trouble finding healthy stuff to do I rode my bike to a coffee shop and read outside for a while. Then I headed to the river for a run and ate at CoolGreens. OKC doesn't have the options of other places, but a lot of time it's what you make of it. I live in midtown and lead a very active lifestyle...

[Meaculpa]

KilgoreTrout

Of course I don't know, but I suspect Spartan was just having a bad day. I was able to have a great run, and eat sushi and drink Crown that day.

A wife, a few kids, and a couple of jobs would make not finding healthy food and a tennis court look like the best day of your life!

I'm writing with a sense of humor....

Peace

[Meaculpa]

Ie

[Jethrol]

For anything to be a success it has to have its own identity. In the same breath, people will say we're just as good as Dallas, Nashville, Austin, or Seattle, yet describe OKC in generalized terms like "A western city built on oil, manufacturing and agriculture". The people in OKC throw around terms like "Big league city" in aspiration, yet are unwilling to embrace creativity as a necessity to become one.

I honestly don't know what you're talking about with the creativity thing. Music...well we have UCO jazz lab and the ACM will help.
http://oudaily.com/news/2010/oct/05/...nts-bands-okc/

We have live music literally everywhere. If you can't find live music, you simply aren't trying.

We have the paseo and downtown arts festivals and I think I remember seeing one in Edmond. Speaking of Edmond, in the summer there is Shakespeare in the park....UCO theater puts on regular plays, Lyric Theater also hmmm....well lets see, there's literally all sorts of creative things going on. What specifically are you talking about?

I'm not saying OKC shouldn't have these things, just that they need to be planned based upon what can give the city and original flavor. How can it be done different? Asking how we can create a new definition of what a city can be is not a pointless question. In answering this question, certainly similar means of other cities will come up to some extent. The originality comes in when redefining how a city serves its people is the main focus.

Ok...so it's obvious you think that planning is the key. So name a few cities that have been seriously planned out and successful?

I don't agree that there is only one way to do things like you suggest. We can grow, improve different parts of the city at different times. Hell back when MAPS1 was proposed, I talked to numerous people like you that said things like, "Meh, a ditch in downtown isn't going to do anything." and "WTF...an arena? We don't need that." But now look at how our city has changed.....we're still OKC only a much improved version.

I would highly argue that filling a city with replicas of what others have is far more "artificial" and "Disney World" than coming up with one's own aesthetical flavor. The city's youth is not a detriment, but makes the challenge that much easier.

So make your argument with specifics. All I've heard from you is how "we're doing it wrong" and how other cities "have their own identity" and how we need to "find our voice". Yet I haven't heard you put forth any ideas to solve these problems. You're talking in generalities not specifics.....so be specific. Don't talk about how you don't like something.....talk about what you think needs to change. Anyone can point fingers and criticize. It's much more difficult to think creatively and develop ideas.

[Jethrol]

We moved from OKC to Arlington, TX in 1988. I must say that the changes I've seen in the last 10 years, on my visits to family, are encouraging. But it's discouraging to see what's declined.

I lived around 44th and S. May from '74 to '84 and, while not the most upscale part of OKC, it was at least clean. Now the whole of S May looks like a 3rd world country. NW 23rd between Western and Robinson always seemed to have so much potential, but it looks abandoned now. Harvey Park looks shabby now, compared to what I remember.

I lived in a house at 17th and Shartel from 72-74 and am really glad to see how that area is looking now. The same goes for Mesta Park and the district encompassed by Shartel, Western, NW 36th, NW 50th. I like the N. Western Restaurant area too. Nice to see Paseo with a second (or third, or fourth) life.

Don't worry....those areas that are neglected now will become the next "hot spots" to buy in a few years.

Sometimes, while visiting, I think that living in OKC again might not be too bad. But when I get back home to Arlington and realize that I'm addicted to a great newspaper (Dallas Morning News), season tickets to the Texas Rangers, Whole Foods, Central Market, movie theaters with reclining seats-floor to ceiling digital screens- in seat food service- and no one under 18 admitted, and a literal plethora of truly great restaurants in either Arlington, Dallas or Fort Worth, I realize that, for me, OKC can be a nice place to visit, but I still don't want to live there.

Cool....come back anytime.

For many people that allure of new and exciting entertainment options in big D are just too strong and they can't stomach coming back. My brother, sister and HS best friend have all moved to Dallas and every one of them says they have no plans to return. It's not that they hate OKC but they constantly feel like we're just "behind the times" here and that things are much more exciting down there.

I honestly can't say I disagree and I have seriously considered moving myself....especially when I get ticked off at work. I work in IT and there aren't many high paying IT jobs open here. When I looked about 2-3 years ago, there are about 100 jobs here compared to 1,000 down in big-D. 10 times as many.....I couldn't believe it. There was an even larger disparity between here and Seattle, LA, etc.

However, the difference between me and these people is, I've been able to witness the changes to OKC first hand. When I drive them around, they're amazed at how quickly things are changing. I now work with many people that live in other cities and commute to OKC.....I mean cities like Dallas and Orlando and Washington DC. I'm not kidding....these people fly in, work in OKC then fly home for the weekend or stay here in an APT. I also work with people that have moved their entire families here from places like Denver, LasVegas, New Jersey, Houston, and many other cities.

Things are most definitely changing in OKC and for the better. Are we there yet? Nope...but hang on....it's going to be a fun ride!

[td25er]

I'm sorry, if you sit in your SUV on a 75 degrees day in January it isn't the city's fault.

[PennyQuilts]

I'm sorry, if you sit in your SUV on a 75 degrees day in January it isn't the city's fault.

I'm rolling, here. You cut straight to the merits, of course.

But we still wish Spartan well and he was probably just having a bad day.

[Taggart]

I honestly don't know what you're talking about with the creativity thing. Music...well we have UCO jazz lab and the ACM will help.
http://oudaily.com/news/2010/oct/05/...nts-bands-okc/

We have live music literally everywhere. If you can't find live music, you simply aren't trying.

We have the paseo and downtown arts festivals and I think I remember seeing one in Edmond. Speaking of Edmond, in the summer there is Shakespeare in the park....UCO theater puts on regular plays, Lyric Theater also hmmm....well lets see, there's literally all sorts of creative things going on. What specifically are you talking about?

Ok...so it's obvious you think that planning is the key. So name a few cities that have been seriously planned out and successful?

I don't agree that there is only one way to do things like you suggest. We can grow, improve different parts of the city at different times. Hell back when MAPS1 was proposed, I talked to numerous people like you that said things like, "Meh, a ditch in downtown isn't going to do anything." and "WTF...an arena? We don't need that." But now look at how our city has changed.....we're still OKC only a much improved version.

So make your argument with specifics. All I've heard from you is how "we're doing it wrong" and how other cities "have their own identity" and how we need to "find our voice". Yet I haven't heard you put forth any ideas to solve these problems. You're talking in generalities not specifics.....so be specific. Don't talk about how you don't like something.....talk about what you think needs to change. Anyone can point fingers and criticize. It's much more difficult to think creatively and develop ideas.

Never have I said that OKC is "Doing it wrong". Just that there are ways to immensely improve and truly become a great city. That's not to say that it isn't functioning adequately now. And I believe I did offer a solution - Adjust the thinking of city planning from "what do others have that we want" to "what defines our specific needs for a city and how can we come up with an original solution for that?" That is the creativity that I am referring to. That is a big idea, a very hard one to grasp.

To get into more specific elements of that is up to the people who have the resources to make those decisions there. Whether they choose to act in that accord is their own deal. But if you're asking me to just mention a simple thing like "change this" or "change that", well then you're probably thinking along the lines of those cities I mentioned earlier who wanted simple fixes instead of working for out-of-the-box solutions.

You seem to confuse me with people that don't like anything. I think the canal is fun, I like having a sports arena and think these all improve the quality of life for people in Oklahoma City, sure. Are they original or do they work towards establishing an original concept of what OKC is? Absolutely not. Maybe my tone was off, maybe I was misread. However, if I have been critical, I would like to believe that it has been constructive in nature.

[yessir69]

OKC is a car culture. We're not New York. That will never change. Never. Ever.

There are towns that are great that are also car cultures - think Dallas, LA, etc. It's just a different way of living. I hope you find happiness wherever you land. But I've lived in other cities, and I'm not going anywhere!

[sheboner]

I guess it just depends on your perspective.

What tends to be described as the flat nothingness that is the geography of OKC, feels like a land ocean to me. I can see forever and never see the end. I wait with baited breath to get to the west side of the OKC metro to see forever. The sunsets are incomprehensible to me. Awe inspiring. I'm sad that many people in OKC don't see it's merits. So much has happened in the last 10 years that have set the city on fire. The sense of community is mind boggling to me. I love that I can go to an asian market dressed with fake lighted palm trees on one corner and find cowboy boots and hats in a mexican market on another corner. I find surprises everywhere I turn. OKC to me is eclectic. How many of you would describe it in such a way? I don't discount the fact that things are missing...but they are coming. I feel it.

[PennyQuilts]

OKC is a car culture. We're not New York. That will never change. Never. Ever.

There are towns that are great that are also car cultures - think Dallas, LA, etc. It's just a different way of living. I hope you find happiness wherever you land. But I've lived in other cities, and I'm not going anywhere!

I think part of it is that some cities create inner city areas for phyical activities like bike riding or hiking but let's face it, in OKC, there isn't a pressing need. You can get outside the city in ten minutes or even live outside the city for far less money than living inside the city if you like doing that sort of thing. OKC has tons of sports leagues if someone is into that sort of thing. Bikes, not so much, granted. I wish it were better but it is what it is - with so many other ways to exercise that doesn't cost the city all that much, it hasn't been that high a priority. Where I lived in Washington DC, they took a lot of old railroads and converted them to biking and hiking trails. It was nice but, 1: they already had the unused railroads; and 2: bikers didn't have good options, otherwise.

If you want to get really steamed, try finding a decent public tennis court or even basketball courts in parts of NYC. And you have to get out of town if you want to bike and not risk life and limb. OKC looks like a paradise in comparison.

[PennyQuilts]

I guess it just depends on your perspective.

What tends to be described as the flat nothingness that is the geography of OKC, feels like a land ocean to me. I can see forever and never see the end. I wait with baited breath to get to the west side of the OKC metro to see forever. The sunsets are incomprehensible to me. Awe inspiring. I'm sad that many people in OKC don't see it's merits. So much has happened in the last 10 years that have set the city on fire. The sense of community is mind boggling to me. I love that I can go to an asian market dressed with fake lighted palm trees on one corner and find cowboy boots and hats in a mexican market on another corner. I find surprises everywhere I turn. OKC to me is eclectic. How many of you would describe it in such a way? I don't discount the fact that things are missing...but they are coming. I feel it.

I think the number one thing natives take for granted in Oklahoma, besides the lack of traffic, is the magnificent climate/weather. Sunny days, week after week - for those of us who don't know what it is like to live under cloudy, dreary skies week after week, this is completely underappreciated. In terms of Oklahoma's unique personality when it comes to pitching to the world, this would be first on my list.

[dismayed]

And I believe I did offer a solution - Adjust the thinking of city planning from "what do others have that we want" to "what defines our specific needs for a city and how can we come up with an original solution for that?" That is the creativity that I am referring to. That is a big idea, a very hard one to grasp.

I have often said something similar. When folks talk about a specific city, like Seattle, if you listen to them closely they usually do not talk about Mt. Rainier or the ocean per se. They talk about all the great music venues there, the coffee, the fish market on Pike, and so on. When folks talk about Los Angeles usually they mention things like the Hollywood Walk of Fame and things of that nature. When people talk of Austin they often talk about the great forward-thinking businesses of the area and of the fun they had on 6th Street. And when people talk of New York they don't talk about the natural greenery of the area of the Atlantic Ocean, they usually talk about the great dining options, the theater, the sports, and so on. In San Fransisco it is likely Chinatown, all the curvy streets, the cable cars, and the experience of browsing through Ghirardelli Chocolate on Fisherman's Wharf that they remember. Those are all things that are unique to those cities and are great experiences.

Really we should be asking ourselves... what is it that is unique about Oklahoma City? What is that quintessential experience here that is a piece of our spirit that someone can walk away with and always remember?

In a lot of ways that is starting to emerge. I think there's about four things that people know about Oklahoma: 1. the bombing, 2. Native Americans, 3. the Thunder, and 4. the crazy weather. If I were from out of town, I think those are the types of things I would want to learn more about. They're a natural hook.

The bombing memorial speaks for itself. I think it is great that a Native American museum is being built east of Bricktown... I think that is going to benefit our city in unimaginable ways once it opens. The Thunder is here in the arena but perhaps there could be more of a presence with shops selling Thunder memorabilia nearby. The weather I can't really think of being represented downtown. I don't exactly know how to do it. Perhaps it could be in the form of a themed restaurant, or a museum, a downtown amusement park, or something else. These are the types of things that our city and development folks should be talking about and thinking about. I'm sure some are, I just wish we heard more about this. To me that's a really winning topic of discussion. Stop thinking about "us," and start thinking about the end user... the tourist.. the visitor. Appeal to their pre-conceived notions. Lure them in based on that. But also be prepared to take them on a completely different ride and show them things that they never expected to find here.

[fsusurfer]

Spartan,

I have scanned through some of the posts, and I find your comments reguarding public tennis courts interesting. I currently work as a tennis pro @ a public tennis facility in Florida. Our courts are not in horrible shape, but they are slowly falling apart. We have 12 lighted courts and 6 hitting walls. The facility does not have enough money to pay for basic upkeep. The city has been trying to close the facility down, and I believe within the next year or two may happen unless we see a huge boom in memberships & lessons. If the city does succeed in closing the facility down, other than a couple run-down courts scatterd throughout the city, the only tennis facilities within 50 miles will all be private clubs - which honestly haven't been faring to much better either. Many of these public facilities were constructed in the 70's and 80's, during a boom in tennis. Now that these facilities are starting to show their wear and are needing major upgrades, the cities dont have the money, nor see the need to continue to support the facilities. It's sad, but it's a sign of the times.

[Taggart]

Dismayed - Very well said. OKC definitely has the potential to have a great landmark of its own like the ones you mentioned in other cities. I think they have a big opportunity with core2shore. Hopefully this is all planned out well.

[BayAreaOkie]

(DISCLAIMER: I do not know the history or contributions of Mr. Spartan to this board. It is obvious that they are a well respected person on this forum. This is simply a response to their public post)

Sorry to hear it is your last day in OKC, but I'm glad that your last day was an unusually beautiful day for late January. You mentioned your venture into parts of the city where you wanted to capture images that reflected the city, but were unfortunately located in a heavily trafficked area. I guess my question to you regarding this is twofold; One, doesn't the traffic in the area or landmark you reference add to the enhancement of the shot? Two, unless it was located on a highway, there's usually a break in traffic that would allow you to capture the shot.

It's great that tennis is your preferred sport and awesome that we have at least one public park that offers the concrete wall that you feel offers the best training and ball response to your passion, but I would ask you -- do you really feel that an obscure sport that not one person from Oklahoma has been recognized for in the short history of our state should garner the majority of attention of our public parks? Is there a problem with you actually joining a dedicated club or location that excels in the type of environment that you are looking for?

I can tell you that I've met THOUSANDS of people in this city and there has literally been one person that I know that had any interest in tennis -- and that was for his 12-year old daughter. In your post, you mention that courteous, gracious and genuine people offered you to play with them or share their court, yet your need to 'own' something or desire to completely disregard the whole idea of a public park and think that you're so enlightened that you should have the courts to yourself? You essentially said that people were more than gracious to you, but your belief in the fact that you should have your own court overrode your understanding of the definition of 'public facility'. Okay, gotcha.

You sat in your car pining for something 'fresh and healthy' and the names, "Cool Greens", "Nihnja" and several other healthy businesses never crossed your mind?! I mean, I've read your praises on here about being so "forward thinking", did you never consider Googling or using a Y! Search app on your smartphone to find out what healthy restaurants might be around you? I mean for such a 'forward thinking' guy, you seem to be locked into a Yellow Pages mentality. Healthy restaurants complete with reviews and distances are just an iPhone app away...

If you're so worried about the commercialization of "Farmer's Markets", here's an idea -- grow your own in your backyard. I mean, I've lived in San Francisco, Los Angeles and Seattle and I can tell you -- I can grow the same carrots, cucumbers and tomatoes that a subsidized farmer can grow, and I don't even have to use fossil fuels to go get them. If you want to play 'enlightened, above it all, elitist', at least be willing to offer a solution instead of a whiny "this city doesn't cater to my needs" eco-terrorist.

The fact that you spent an entire day in your SUV was your complete lack of vision, not the shortcomings of the city. Is the city spread out? Absolutely. The reality is, short of about 12 major metropolitans, most towns and cities don't have the Utopian tree hugger layouts and public transportation solutions that the granola's think they're entitled to, but never can offer a solution to make happen. You don't get to have it both ways; you don't get to slag the city that offers a great future to talk about another city that you're being 'liberated' to.

If a 'crappy built environment, unsafe streets, decent weather and absolutely pathetic green spaces with virtually zero healthy eating options' is the benchmark of your preferred city, might I suggest visiting the city in your mind. I don't know your age, but your continual whining about 'green' this, and 'healthy living' that, says that you've read one too many books about what the 'proper' living conditions should be.

I'll guarantee that I've experienced a life much broader than a throwaway city in Canada, and if you think that your prayers will be answered by heading north to free healthcare and 'greener' living, you're sorely mistaken.

The way I see it, is that you're a victim of 'short timers disease' -- you think you're enlightened because you've got a ticket out of here so you now get to sit back and say the most negative things that you've held in your head -- because now, you don't skin in the game. You're a short timer -- it's only a short time until you get to live in your land of Utopia so this is the best time to release all of your small barbs that are basically saying, "Look at what you don't have" while subtly saying, "I'm more enlightened than you, because I'm going to a place that is more forward thinking than OKC." Well I can tell you my friend, as someone that is more traveled than you'll probably ever see -- the grass isn't greener just because you read a book about how 'cool' or 'advanced' a city might be.

Good luck on your adventure, but I think if you really look inside of yourself 4-months into your 'kick butt, forward thinking, eco-friendly' paradise that you're portraying, you'll find that when it comes to the things THAT REALLY MATTER (raising a family, cost of living, etc.) you'll drop the rose colored tree hugger glasses you seem to have purchased and see the world for what it really is.

- BayAreaOkie

[earlywinegareth]

Back to the identity thing...I see OKC as being very similar culturally to Fort Worth. I think of the stockyards and the western roots. The only truly unique thing about OKC I can think of is the Land Run...being born as a city of 10,000 in one day. I wish our baseball team were still the OKC 89'ers. I don't know how that could be turned into a marketing feature, though.

[Spartan]

Spartan,

I have scanned through some of the posts, and I find your comments reguarding public tennis courts interesting. I currently work as a tennis pro @ a public tennis facility in Florida. Our courts are not in horrible shape, but they are slowly falling apart. We have 12 lighted courts and 6 hitting walls. The facility does not have enough money to pay for basic upkeep. The city has been trying to close the facility down, and I believe within the next year or two may happen unless we see a huge boom in memberships & lessons. If the city does succeed in closing the facility down, other than a couple run-down courts scatterd throughout the city, the only tennis facilities within 50 miles will all be private clubs - which honestly haven't been faring to much better either. Many of these public facilities were constructed in the 70's and 80's, during a boom in tennis. Now that these facilities are starting to show their wear and are needing major upgrades, the cities dont have the money, nor see the need to continue to support the facilities. It's sad, but it's a sign of the times.

That's utterly shameful. Sorry to hear.

In Sweden they go to great lengths to make tennis publicly accessible, as with everything else. Here in Uppsala they actually have a few outdoor courts that are designated winter courts which they scrape and keep snow off of, and keep dry, and all that. It's really awesome. Free.

I plan on responding to all of you guys in time. I appreciate all of you, and I appreciate the thought I stirred up. Good job guys. Yes, Oklahoma's weather is both a curse and a blessing in many different ways..but there's no reason public infrastructure can't embrace that and make it a good thing. If Sweden can have outdoor courts...

On the other side, Europe is kinda lonely. Swedes are very quiet and reserved, which I am not. I'm not boisterous, but by Uppsala-standards, I guess so. It's amazing how lonely it can be in the most beautiful surroundings I have ever seen. Stockholm is pretty awesome too...much more of a monumental setting than OKC, or even Calgary.