What do YOU think the purpose of the Maps3 Streetcar system is?

[Rover]

Rover, people might have said the Thunder would fail, but the reality is that there was a demand, unlike the streetcar.

People like you said that there WASN'T demand. Opinion and fact are often two totally different things.

Their IS demand for transportation. There IS demand for ease. There IS demand for personal cost savings. There IS demand for clean air. There IS demand....

If streetcars can fill demand then the ridership will be there. That is why I asked what people wanted or expected the system to be and to do for them.

[Kerry]

Bouldersooner - you must be 10 feet from homeplate because that was another one out of the park. Good point.

[Spartan]

I said I was not going to debate this, but I will comment on the responses.

Spartan, the reason the rubber tired trolleys are not doing well is because there is not a viable demand for public transportation in OKC. Except for the novelty, the streetcar will not change that at all.

Rover, people might have said the Thunder would fail, but the reality is that there was a demand, unlike the streetcar.

That's like saying the rock bottom low attendance at OU basketball games right now is proof that Oklahoma doesn't care about basketball, because the state's major university can't even drum up bball interest. Nevermind the fact that being an OU bball fan is such a painful experience right now that most of us have had to block it out of our lives at the moment..the product sucks. The Thunder sell out every night.

Provide a superior product and it will be supported in OKC. The rubber-tire trolleys are a freaking joke. I hate those gd trolleys so much it's hard to express. Streetcar will simply be a superior offering, and it will be used. Also, to say there is no demand for transit is ridiculous. Especially considering streetcar doesn't need "transit demand" because it creates its own ridership base with TOD (transit oriented development).

A Question. Why do urbanists feel they have to respond to everyone that has a different opinion than their own. Very tiresome.

Because this is a forum for discussion.

[Popsy]

Rover, are you trying to say that what you are saying is a fact any more than what I am saying is a fact? I recognize that what I am saying is not a fact, it is only my opinion. I do not begrudge your opinion, even if flawed in my opinion. The truth is, only time will tell.

Spartan, you have drank so much of the Koolade reality has totally abandoned you. I hope you can recover someday.

[Architect2010]

No Popsy. You clearly made definitive statements saying that there is not demand for public transportation in OKC. It seems to me that you were trying to speak more along the lines of some personally-inflated sense of fact and not opinion. Don't back up now.

[Spartan]

Popsy, it's Koolaid not Koolade. Sheesh, you can't even get that straight.

[Popsy]

arch2010. No, not backing up. The title of the thread is "What do YOU think..........." and I gave my thoughts. Rover stated his were facts, but I do not see how what he said are facts as it has not happened yet. He might have seen it in other cities, but OKC is not one of the other cities. Why don't we wait a couple of years after it is up and running and then see what the facts are at that point in time.

Spartan, you must be off your game if a spelling error is the best you can come back with. I actually spelled it with aid at first, but then thought it looked wrong. Since I have never drank the koolaid it is no wonder I don't know how to spell it and since you have consumed a bunch of it I consider you to be an expert at spelling koolaid.

[betts]

I personally agree with Spartan. The trolleys have no easily discernable route, they have no easily discernable stops and they arrive at no discernable time. Any one of those problems could sink a transit system, all three doom it, IMO. Since we have an existing system that is dysfunctional, one cannot extrapolate how the public would deal with a functional one, based on prior experience.

There is data from other cities showing both significant increases in ridership, as well as extremely significant transit-oriented development. The streetcars, if the route is designed properly, will have an easily discernable route. The fact that there will be tracks in the ground helps as well, and hopefully we will have superior signage. Trains will arrive frequently and reliably. If we design a route that takes people places they want to go, ridership will be through the roof. We might put the Black Pearl out of business, but not the Iguana. Especially considering our unreliable weather, the option of even going a few blocks at times of extreme heat or cold will make the prospect of going somewhere other than the mall an attractive one. At some point in time, hopefully, you will be able to arrive on a train from Edmond or Norman and take the streetcar around downtown.

[Popsy]

Betts,

Despite my current thoughts I actually hope it is successful for the sake of the citizens of OKC that are ponying up the 130 million dollars to see it implemented. I would feel better about the project if it was currently limited to the downtown core.

[Rover]

Streetcars are just the core of the infrastructure that will help enable an efficient transit system throughout the metro area. It will have success, but will be even more used when the rest of the systems feed people to it. It is a long term development process. Streetcars, interurban light rail, train, high velocity train.

[Spartan]

Spartan, you must be off your game if a spelling error is the best you can come back with. I actually spelled it with aid at first, but then thought it looked wrong. Since I have never drank the koolaid it is no wonder I don't know how to spell it and since you have consumed a bunch of it I consider you to be an expert at spelling koolaid.

Popsy, you know me better than that to suggest I'm regurgitating anything other than my own ideas. As for your regurgitation, I have no idea what that is. There's drinking the koolaid, and then there's standing in the corner refusing to get along. Whatever happened to just being a mildly reasonable adult capable of a discussion? The internets are crazy.

[Popsy]

Spartan,

Are you suggesting that since I see OKC differently than the urbanists I should keep it to myself so we could just get along. If so, I will if you will. Deal?

[Spartan]

Showing more willingness to converse and talk would seem like just as good an option to me. Not saying you should pipe down at all. Just keep in mind that most of us on here have been for years talking about the exact same issues we're talking about right now. All of our opinions have evolved..I can even give specific examples where my opinions on a lot of things have made a complete 180 since I became steeped in urban terminology.

I remember heated arguments over Overholser Green, which I was pro-OG. I remember arguments over upscale downtown housing. I remember arguments over transit, and I used to be anti-transit, and so on. Popsy, don't think that any of us just came out of the womb arguing for streetcar. It's a point of view that, for a lot of us, took some thinking and debating to arrive at.

Realistically, you're either pro-transit or anti-transit. That is the first step. Do you embrace transit in its entirety, in all its forms, or do you oppose it? Pete White is closer to the position of Meg Salyer and Sam Bowman, rather than Brian Walters despite that Walters and White are the only two that have spoken out against streetcar. Pete supports transit, just doesn't see the big picture. But for all intents and purposes, you have to first decide if you're pro or anti on transit. If you're against transit, need go no further. Just recognize that the majority of the community has decided to proceed with transit, and let the debate go on. But if you are pro-transit and want to have a say in how we build a transit system, practical decisions must be made about how to embark on that.

If people do not want to be in on making practical, realistic decisions on transit, they need to just follow the example of Brian Walters who literally lays his head down (right in the middle of council meetings) anytime streetcar and/or transit is brought up. Although my personal opinion is that Walters needs to pretend to nap more, because it's really annoying when he talks about how your car is your freedom and building streetcars is the government taking people's freedom away blah blah blah. And also because it's great anytime Walters makes a fool out of himself with some stunt.

[Larry OKC]

I personally agree with Spartan. The trolleys have no easily discernable route, they have no easily discernable stops and they arrive at no discernable time. Any one of those problems could sink a transit system, all three doom it, IMO. Since we have an existing system that is dysfunctional, one cannot extrapolate how the public would deal with a functional one, based on prior experience.

There is data from other cities showing both significant increases in ridership, as well as extremely significant transit-oriented development. The streetcars, if the route is designed properly, will have an easily discernable route. The fact that there will be tracks in the ground helps as well, and hopefully we will have superior signage. Trains will arrive frequently and reliably. If we design a route that takes people places they want to go, ridership will be through the roof. We might put the Black Pearl out of business, but not the Iguana. Especially considering our unreliable weather, the option of even going a few blocks at times of extreme heat or cold will make the prospect of going somewhere other than the mall an attractive one. At some point in time, hopefully, you will be able to arrive on a train from Edmond or Norman and take the streetcar around downtown.

I agree about the Trolleys. And agree that it has to go where people want to go, not just close. Not an attempt to argue the post but it did raise some questions for me.

1) Obviously the dedicated route/stops solves two of the failings of Buses/Streetcars (afterwords referred to B/S). What about Streetcars solves the timing issue? Unless they are automated and it leaves every _____ minutes, they are still running though traffic that can cause delays etc?

2) "Trains will arrive frequently and reliably". Besides the traffic issue mentioned above, aren't the same folks that are running the buses and the failed Trolleys going to be running the streetcars?

3) "(H)opefully we will have superior signage." Might this solve some of the problems with the failed B/S? Also hope the signage isn't along the lines of the quarter of a million spent on signage (and website) just inside the Civic Center! At least with it it seemed to be paid for with private donations and not public money.

4) Granted some businesses may be hurt and others will be helped by the Streetcar but a business can relocate along a Streetcar line/near a stop. Same as if some other reason lead to a drop in business. Resolve the particular cause (location, service, quality etc).

[betts]

Larry, the Black Pearl is the ancient bus (with groaning transmission) that the Iguana Grill uses to take people to the Ford Center for Thunder games. I was trying to be funny, although perhaps did not succeed. All the businesses in the CBD survive somehow right now without any means to transport people to them, and I doubt (hope not, anyway) a streetcar will negatively affect their business.

I'll let Urban Pioneer answer your timing questions. And, I believe the signs will be paid for with existing streetcar funds in MAPS.

[Larry OKC]

Betts:

Sorry, thought it was a restaurant, thanks for the clarification...LOL

[BoulderSooner]

I agree about the Trolleys. And agree that it has to go where people want to go, not just close. Not an attempt to argue the post but it did raise some questions for me.

1) Obviously the dedicated route/stops solves two of the failings of Buses/Streetcars (afterwords referred to B/S). What about Streetcars solves the timing issue? Unless they are automated and it leaves every _____ minutes, they are still running though traffic that can cause delays etc?

2) "Trains will arrive frequently and reliably". Besides the traffic issue mentioned above, aren't the same folks that are running the buses and the failed Trolleys going to be running the streetcars?

3) "(H)opefully we will have superior signage." Might this solve some of the problems with the failed B/S? Also hope the signage isn't along the lines of the quarter of a million spent on signage (and website) just inside the Civic Center! At least with it it seemed to be paid for with private donations and not public money.

4) Granted some businesses may be hurt and others will be helped by the Streetcar but a business can relocate along a Streetcar line/near a stop. Same as if some other reason lead to a drop in business. Resolve the particular cause (location, service, quality etc).

what will/should solve the timing issue (it would work for the bus system as well) are gps tracked trolleys and digital time countdowns at all the stops that let you know to the min/sec when the next trolly is going to arive at your stop.

[Kerry]

what will/should solve the timing issue (it would work for the bus system as well) are gps tracked trolleys and digital time countdowns at all the stops that let you know to the min/sec when the next trolly is going to arive at your stop.

Not only that bouldersooner but streetcars can be (and are) equiped with a priority over-ride system for stop lights. If the streetcar driver is so inclined, he would never have to stop. He would just turn all his lights green as he gets to them. Also, in several cities there are Apple Aps and Android Apps for cell phone and tablets that let you see real time info on the location of the streetcars. You don't even need to wait at the stop; just check your phone and get to the stop a few seconds before the streetcar does. As for service time, if they go with a system like I proposed on the regular streetcar thread service times downtown will be very frequent (about every 3 to 5 minutes through all of downtown). This is because I made all of downtown a common spine that all streetcars follow.

Seattle Streetcar Real Time
http://www.nextbus.com/googleMap/goo...ion&s=westdenn

Portland Streetcar Real Time
http://www.nextbus.com/predictor/pub...shtml?a=portsc