Firefighters Union and MAPS 3 - the next chapter?

[barnold]

Metro,
Actually the citizens of Okc are the ones who have been "shot in the foot", while the employees of Okc have been stabbed in the back. Yet we keep on doing what we have accepted to be our professions and continue to serve and try and stop the bleeding; even on those that would spit on us while we try to help.

Once again, not one person has been able to say anything was incorrect on the flier. The truth tends to stand up rather well.

Steve, looking forward to it.

[OKCGUY3]

Just a couple of questions? Was our District Attny duped, and if so, has he had any comments about being duped into making statements, based on information I assume from the Mayor and City Council that has now proven to have been false? ( talking about the quote mentioned in another post that claims Prader said there wouldn't be any Police positions cut ) Unless of course, the loss of 29 Police positions, and 21 Fire positions including 3 Brush pumpers and a fire engine are not considere cuts, please correct me if I am misinformed.
Also, how long ago was the Capital Hill Fire Station supposed to have reopened? I drove by it yesterday and the work being done looks very similar to the last time I drove by it two months ago. It looks as if there is still months and months of work to do considering there is no floor and several walls are missing or broken open. I am not a construction expert but something looks very wrong with this building progress.

[Larry OKC]

Wambo, the point is things take time. What they said would happen, will happen. This is like sending out a flyer trying to outrage the public because the city leaders also claimed that a convention center will be built and senior centers will be built and they haven't been built yet...so I guess they lied. This is ridiculous. ...

(Come to think of it, we were also promised a 'central park' and they didn't build it in the past 5 months...I guess they lied. I'm angry. I should make a flyer.)

Go ahead and make a flyer, but make sure to compare Apples to Apples and not Kumquats...did anyone in City leadership give any sort of time frame on ...

Convention Center? Mayor said he wanted it to be "staged last" and was about 10 years away from opening. Would it be premature to complain it hasn't been built yet? Absolutely.

Senior Centers? Don't recall any mention of timing on them at all. To early to complain that they aren't finished yet. But Council members are correct in questioning why the Senior Centers "tab" in the MAPS 3 book, is empty.

Central Park? The Mayor wants the Park and Boulevard completed by 2014 (with the relocation of I-40 expected in 2012). While it is coming up, it would be premature to complain the Park isn't finished yet.

The flyer makes claims to mislead the public into thinking the use-tax money went elsewhere and not to public safety. Ok, where did it go then? How much did the use-tax generate?? We don't know yet...why don't we know? Because we are only 5 months into a 92-month process

I am looking at the flyer right now and there is absolutely no mention of the Use Tax. Here is the complete text from the flyer:

Side 1:

"A yes vote for MAPS puts more police and firefighters on the street." -- Mayor Mick Cornett Dec. 2009

Mayor Cornett promised more firefighters when MAPS 3 passed and that MAPS 3 was a vote for public safety.

Two months after the MAPS 3 tax began, your city politicians broke their promise to the citizens of Oklahoma City by cutting 29 fire fighter positions and 4 fire trucks from the budget.

Side 2:

In their push to pass MAPS 3, City politicians promised you more police and fire fighters and a vote for MAPS 3 was a vote for public safety. They have given you less. Oklahoma City fire fighter resources have been cut at an alarming rate while City leaders continue to insist public safety is one of their top priorities.

Fire fighters make hundreds of emergency calls every day protecting the citizens of Oklahoma City. Fire fighters now need help from you, the citizen.

Call your City politician today and tell them you remember the Mayor's promise that MAPS 3 would provide more fire and police protection.

Call now and hold your City politicians accountable with your tax dollars.

Ward 1 297-2404
Ward 2 297-2402
Ward 3 297-2404
Ward 4 297-2402
Ward 5 297-2569
Ward 6 297-2402
Ward 7 297-2569
Ward 8 297-2404

To address your Use Tax questions...

"Ok, where did it go then?"
Good question, according to the City manager, $7M of Use Tax money is being used for Public Safety (presume that is for the current budget year). Earlier statements (see post #32) indicated an unspecified amount/percentage of the Use Tax would be used, but only for "a couple of years".

"How much did the use-tax generate??"
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m.../ai_n42094064/
Oklahoma City mayor speaks out about MAPS 3 opposition info (Journal Record, 11/13/09)

About $15.9 million of an estimated $60.3 million in use tax collected from the MAPS for Kids issue has already been applied to support public safety on materials such as police cars, firetrucks, police helicopters, technology and fire stations. On $777 million, the use tax is projected to be about $90 million, city officials said.

Did you catch the first part? This is in direct contradiction to what the Mayor/City claimed:
http://www.newsok.com/maps-3-use-tax...adlines_widget
MAPS 3 use tax to fund safety in Oklahoma City (Oklahoman, 11/13/09)

City records show public safety has received $60 million of use tax revenue from MAPS For Kids, which passed in 2001.

http://www.okc.gov/news/2009_11/Impa...ic_Safety.html
Mayor, District Attorney, Councilman address impact of MAPS on public safety (Oklahoman, 11/12/09)

Mayor Cornett explained that in 2001, the voters of Oklahoma City passed MAPS for Kids. ... The MAPS for Kids use tax has been applied to public safety capital, such as police cars, fire trucks, police helicopters, technology and fire stations. The total investment from MAPS for Kids in public safety is a staggering $60 million.

The MAPS 3 Use Tax is expected to raise $90M. That is over the 7.75 year span of the tax. Quick and dirty math, that averages out to be $11.62M/year. As pointed out above, $7M is being used for Public Safety, to ask your own question, "Where did the rest go?" ($4.62M)

Granted, no promise was made to use all of the Use Tax for PS. BUT as pointed out in post #32, the promise was made that by passing MAPS 3 and using the Use Tax, NO positions would be cut (for 2 years) and more positions would actually be added during that time frame as well.

The reality is, 51 PS positions were cut, not added.

"We don't know yet...why don't we know? Because we are only 5 months into a 92-month process"
As you are undoubtedly aware, budgets are made on anticipated revenue projections. The amount actually collected may be higher/lower and if significantly lower, then mid year adjustments may have to be made (just as we had those 2% cuts during the last fiscal year). Surely you aren't suggesting we need to wait to fund anything until the end of the 92-month process? Or wait to hold anyone accountable several years afterwards (when it is too late to correct the problem)?

[barnold]

Larry,
Once again you've presented way too much factual information to those that believe we are all living in a rose garden. I would guess that someone's next step will be to call you a name and try to divert from the facts. Thanks for the info.

[Wambo36]

Larry,
Once again you've presented way too much factual information to those that believe we are all living in a rose garden. I would guess that someone's next step will be to call you a name and try to divert from the facts. Thanks for the info.

Or, they'll go start another thread to try and get away from the glaring facts that make their position impossible to defend on this one. Oh wait, it already happened.

[Steve]

Fire murderers. Flame bigots. Heat addicts. You're all just horrible. Oh yeah... I bet you're going to harp on me about checking the battery in my smoke detector too!

[barnold]

I know, we can start 100 new threads and start our quest to rule the world.......(insert evil laugh here)....

[urbanity]

http://npaper-wehaa.com/oklahoma-gaz...rticle=1132383

[Kerry]

Because the city experienced a drastic shortfall in general fund revenue — one of the hallmarks of the economic recession experienced nationwide — it had to cut 29 firefighter positions and fund 45 existing firefighter positions with MAPS use-tax money, which in the past has gone toward capital improvements and equipment. Supporters of the MAPS 3 initiative also promised that the use-tax money would fund 10 firefighter positions and 20 police positions, but that money is now tied up in funding the 45 existing fire positions and 55 current police positions.

Are those "jobs saved"? Using presidential math the city over-delivered. If I was an OKC sales tax payer I would be outraged that more MAPS III money is going to police and fire than was promised.

[Meaculpa]

Obviously the "vote yes" campaing regarded firefighter jobs to be an important issue to the voters. They put a lot of money into convincing the voters that "a yes vote was a vote for public safety"

Currently we have less firefighters on the job than we had prior to the original MAPS intitative of 1993.

This forum seems to have participation from a very small group of people. Furthermore, it seems that the posters on this forum project their own feelings on the typical sales tax payer.

No one is talking about this on the streets. The typical sales tax payer probably remembers something about a yes vote securing public safety jobs. They don't know what has transpired since the vote.

Peace......

[Larry OKC]

Are those "jobs saved"? Using presidential math the city over-delivered. If I was an OKC sales tax payer I would be outraged that more MAPS III money is going to police and fire than was promised.

That may be the problem with "presidential math"...LOL

Spend more money and "save positions" when in reality positions were cut and not added as promised.

[betts]

I've learned to avoid these threads like the plague and accidentally clicked on this one. All I'm going to say is that when it comes to math, the product can be changed by changing the divisor as well as the dividend. So, if there is not as much money as anticipated, one can reduce salaries or, dare I say it, change retirement age or retirement benefits, and increase the number of firefighter jobs thereby as well. Everything I've heard from retired firefighters and their families leads me to think that they do VERY well post-retirement, considering the number of years they work, the required number of years of education for the position and/or their potential age at retirement. I would suggest that, like social security, if a retired firefighter makes over a certain income post-retirement, their benefits are reduced commensurately. If that is already the case, I stand corrected. If not, it's a reasonable suggestion, to my way of thinking. Adios.

[Meaculpa]

The twenty year retirement was enacted because of the short post retirement life of a
career firefighter. Firefighters die 10-12 years earlier than the average expected life in the jurisdiction
they worked in.
As far as required education level, this topic is only brought up by college educated individuals.
Consider the work being performed and/or the importance of the work.
There is no valid reason to consider education level as the measuring stick.
However, you would be surprised at the number of college educated firefighters on the OCFD.

[betts]

I thought that the statement that firefighters have a significantly decreased life span was an interesting statement, so I tried to find some data. One question I would have is whether the fact that there is a higher mortality for the profession skews the average lifespan data. I found a California study that supposedly debunked the fact that firefighters have decreased mortality, but it didn't really show any good data. There was a German study that showed survival advantage for firefighters, which they attributed to better fitness. I found a British study that showed a decreased lifespan of approximately one year for firefighters over age adjusted males in other occupations. Not working at all had the highest mortality rate, interestingly. So, I'll have to say the jury is out on that statement for the time being. I'm willing to be convinced, however.

My argument about education and income is related to lost years of income. I agree that there are probably many firefighters with college educations. If they don't start firefighting until they have completed college, then they have to be at least 44 to retire. I have to be 65, so they've got 20 years on me. But, if they start work at 18, I finished my educations at 30. I lost 12 years of income, not to mention expense for education. Then, I have to work 25 years longer than they do before I can retire. It seems a little unfair, to be honest with you since I consider my job equally important. If the data being bandied around here is accurate, as well, I don't make any more than many firefighters. I just suggested to my son that he be a firefighter, because I think it may be more lucrative than just about anything he can do with a bachelor's degree, and he'll have 20 years post retirement to pursue a different career.

[Mikemarsh51]

Betts, your numbers are a little off. Let's cover this again. Joe Blow works average 2080 hours per year. That is 2080 out of 8760. That is less than 25% of the year. Firefighters work 2920 hours per year. There are 3 shifts so you work 1/3 of the time. Maybe you can find some data that adjusts those working hours into the amount of years actually worked.

[MustangGT]

It seems a little unfair, to be honest with you since I consider my job equally important. If the data being bandied around here is accurate, as well, I don't make any more than many firefighters. I just suggested to my son that he be a firefighter, because I think it may be more lucrative than just about anything he can do with a bachelor's degree, and he'll have 20 years post retirement to pursue a different career.

Betts now you are giving sound/well reasoned intelligent advice to your son. A firefighter is an excellent career choice. Not to be rude but in the grand scheme of things your job is not equally important as a firefighters, not even close. If everybody in your profession died tomorrow it would have much less of an effect on overall society than if all firefighters died tomorrow.

[kevinpate]

Betts, your numbers are a little off. Let's cover this again. Joe Blow works average 2080 hours per year. That is 2080 out of 8760. That is less than 25% of the year. Firefighters work 2920 hours per year. There are 3 shifts so you work 1/3 of the time. Maybe you can find some data that adjusts those working hours into the amount of years actually worked.

True, but in perspective, Joe Blow's 2080 hours by and large don't have on the clock rec time, sleep time, chow time, food shopping time, poo/shower/shave time, telly time, shoot the bull time, etc. as recurring parts of Joe's work hours. By nature of the 24 hour shift, fire folk do. Be also to be fair and continue to keep perspective, most Joe Blow's aren't likely to face life or death situations very often, if ever, unlike their public safety counterparts who can and will be in harm's way to various degrees (no pun intended.)

[Rover]

Betts now you are giving sound/well reasoned intelligent advice to your son. A firefighter is an excellent career choice. Not to be rude but in the grand scheme of things your job is not equally important as a firefighters, not even close. If everybody in your profession died tomorrow it would have much less of an effect on overall society than if all firefighters died tomorrow.

You know, it is this kind of arrogance that turns people off. A lot of people do important jobs and they pay taxes to have services provided. Hate to tell you, but if every firefighter died tomorrow we would train and hire more firefighters. Everyone can be replaced. I know nurses that work much harder and longer hours than the firefighters I know and they get paid less. Teachers make much less. There are all kinds of services that society determines to be important.

[Meaculpa]

Just to be clear, my statement on a job's importance
was benign. I certainly was not commenting on work's inherent dignity.

As far as "down time" goes, there isn't as much as you probably think.
But there is some. During the short bursts of down time firefighters are not off duty
to do as they wish.

Also, keep in mind, this "public safety vs. The City" talk isn't on the minds of the average OKC resident. The "downtown lovers" seem to be overly consumed with the topic. It has developed into quite a pastime. I can assure you firefighters are not your enemy. Firefighters are the highest ranked city service in city funded polls.
The good job firefighters have done has helped the city gain a lot of trust.

Peace....

[betts]

Betts, your numbers are a little off. Let's cover this again. Joe Blow works average 2080 hours per year. That is 2080 out of 8760. That is less than 25% of the year. Firefighters work 2920 hours per year. There are 3 shifts so you work 1/3 of the time. Maybe you can find some data that adjusts those working hours into the amount of years actually worked.

Were a firefighter working every single hour he was scheduled to be on shift, that might be a reasonable argument. But, like me, you have many hours when you're scheduled, but you might be sleeping, or on your computer, cooking a nice meal, working out or playing volleyball. I don't technically get paid for those hours when I'm on call but I might not actually have to do work, so they don't really get counted in my percent time worked either. People who have a 9 to 5 job are usually working every hour they're scheduled to work. So, we're comparing apples and oranges.

[betts]

Betts now you are giving sound/well reasoned intelligent advice to your son. A firefighter is an excellent career choice. Not to be rude but in the grand scheme of things your job is not equally important as a firefighters, not even close. If everybody in your profession died tomorrow it would have much less of an effect on overall society than if all firefighters died tomorrow.

That's an interesting statement, considering the fact that probably 10% or more of the physicians working in Oklahoma City today were trained in part by me directly. I wonder how the world would run without a single physician. We could give it a try......

[LordGerald]

Were a firefighter working every single hour he was scheduled to be on shift, that might be a reasonable argument. But, like me, you have many hours when you're scheduled, but you might be sleeping, or on your computer, cooking a nice meal, working out or playing volleyball. I don't technically get paid for those hours when I'm on call but I might not actually have to do work, so they don't really get counted in my percent time worked either. People who have a 9 to 5 job are usually working every hour they're scheduled to work. So, we're comparing apples and oranges.

Marshall is Superman. He doesn't eat, sleep, or play on the computer while on the job at OKC's finest.

[usmbubba]

FWIW my father was a firefighter in another state, he retired after 25 years on the job, he passed away 6 months later. I can't say for sure that the job was the cause or not. As far as working shifts, it's not cut and dry, I really dislike the "volleyball" comments. Yes on occasion, they might play volleyball, but I would imagine like in my father's time, they have training requirements and other duties to do ie Checking hydrants, maintenance on vehicles/hoses. I have also seen where they have dropped everything to go on a run during those "grocery runs" that some like to complain about. I've done shift work when I was in the USAF, not busy some times but busy as hell at others.

[Midtowner]

So the firefighters cast their lot with the 'no' crowd, put all their cards on the table, lost and still want to get their cut? Sorry fellas, nowhere in the real world does it work that way. You get on the wrong side of an issue, sometimes, there's a price to pay.

[Mikemarsh51]

Betts, I see it differently. When I go to work, I am at work for 24 hours. I can't leave, can't go to my kids ganes, can't sleep in my bed, can't go anywhere I want. As far as I am concerned it makes no difference to me if I make 1 call or 15, I am at work. On the rare occasion I might sleep through the night, I am still at work.

Midtowner, you are a piece of work. You are pushing the idea of punishing a certain group for not thinking like you. Bottom line, the city came to us with this final contract offer. Apparently their polling data was showing that they were being seen as bullies for offering the firefighters far less than the garbage collectors and sewer workers.