Automobile Alley

[Spartan]

You still have to have an anchor. That's a general rule of real estate.

[J. Pitman]

You know, I'm with Pete on something very important. He's pointed out several times about the stretching ourselves thin with "districts." We're going to have a hard time developing true "districts" unless we develop them and keep on developing them until there's some density. Right now, we've got so many "districts" that they are really only mini-districts because if there's one or two bars there is worry of saturation and competition. A true "district" will build success one business on top of another. I'm not sure how this relates to AA except that it's just another example of everything being so spread out and retail/bar/restaurant development moving at such a snail's pace that it's hard to see real energy. Just a smattering of "oh, that's nice." Make any sense?

You're right. The wife and I were in Tulsa a couple of weeks ago on a Weds. night for a show at Cains. Between dinner and the concert we wanted to catch a quarter of the Thunder game. So we headed to Peoria street. It was full of restaurants, retail and bars. People were out and about, on a Weds. night. She was shocked, she's from Chicago. All she could say was "why don't we have anything like this in OKC?"

I think the closest thing we have right now is midtown, if Bricktown isn't in the conversation.

[Doug Loudenback]

I think that you're correct, J.Pitman, about Tulsa. What you said about Peoria is certainly true, but, actually, before I read your post, a different particular area in Tulsa came to mind, E. 15th between Peoria and Utica. I was rolling around in my head what is at least generally being asked in this thread, "what would you like to see Automobile Alley (Broadway and its proximate crossings, e.g., NW 9th - NW 13th) be like, and as I was pondering the question that mile-long stretch on E. 15th in Tulsa popped in my mind, and I looked at Google maps to test my memory -- it's been a few years now since I was actually driving along this strip.



As I said, it's been a few years since I've been there, but I remember this mile-long strip as a delightful urban stretch laden with lots of small shops of one kind or another ... good restaurants, to be sure, but also many other types of commerce mixed in ... places to buy quality items of home decor, art, others that I don't recall. In the above contemporary Google aerial, it looks like there's a barber shop, a shoe shop, a doughnut shop, a flower shop, and doubtless other shops that didn't make the Google rendering.

What that mile-long stretch remarkable is ... it is eclectic, a hodgepodge, a blend of this's and that's ... some nice antique shops might fit in nicely ... any kind of commerce that is fun for shoppers who are interested in charm and local fare, compactly located within a fairly small and defined space. In such a mix, no need would exist for any kind of an "anchor," Nick ... in fact, an anchor would detract from the charm, in my opinion. "Small" is the first keyword; "local" is the second; and "utilizing old buildings" is the third.

I think that Automobile Alley & its crossings at and above NW 9th would be ideal for such a development, where it has already begun. It could become a premier city destination, I'm thinking.

[okclee]

I give you Western Ave.

[Doug Loudenback]

Yes, quite right. Western Ave. & Paseo are fine Oklahoma City examples, as well.

[BDP]

That's a general rule of real estate.

And one that has been used here over and over again. Of course, it doesn't hurt to have one, but the wrong anchor can hurt even more. I'd much rather see several stores with no anchor like campus corner than a big anchor and no other retail like lower bricktown (which actually kind of has TWO anchors and little to no retail.) Now, if we didn't already have several well anchored strip centers full of mass merchandisers, then I'd say we need it. But, we have plenty of that for those who want it. The city does not need another 25k square foot plus retailer selling $20 cargo shorts.

And there are many examples of full and successful retail districts with no large mega store mass merchandise anchors. The key is that they offer a wide selection of unique and usually locally owned stores that, together, create the destination themselves. Granted, these are usually in denser locations that are on a main transit route. Hopefully, if that happens here,we'll have some space developed with that kind of shopping experience in mind.

[onthestrip]

Yes, quite right. Western Ave. & Paseo are fine Oklahoma City examples, as well.

Id like to think that too but in reality they dont touch Tulsa's Cherry St or Brookside.

[Spartan]

I think that you're correct, J.Pitman, about Tulsa. What you said about Peoria is certainly true, but, actually, before I read your post, a different particular area in Tulsa came to mind, E. 15th between Peoria and Utica. I was rolling around in my head what is at least generally being asked in this thread, "what would you like to see Automobile Alley (Broadway and its proximate crossings, e.g., NW 9th - NW 13th) be like, and as I was pondering the question that mile-long stretch on E. 15th in Tulsa popped in my mind, and I looked at Google maps to test my memory -- it's been a few years now since I was actually driving along this strip.



As I said, it's been a few years since I've been there, but I remember this mile-long strip as a delightful urban stretch laden with lots of small shops of one kind or another ... good restaurants, to be sure, but also many other types of commerce mixed in ... places to buy quality items of home decor, art, others that I don't recall. In the above contemporary Google aerial, it looks like there's a barber shop, a shoe shop, a doughnut shop, a flower shop, and doubtless other shops that didn't make the Google rendering.

What that mile-long stretch remarkable is ... it is eclectic, a hodgepodge, a blend of this's and that's ... some nice antique shops might fit in nicely ... any kind of commerce that is fun for shoppers who are interested in charm and local fare, compactly located within a fairly small and defined space. In such a mix, no need would exist for any kind of an "anchor," Nick ... in fact, an anchor would detract from the charm, in my opinion. "Small" is the first keyword; "local" is the second; and "utilizing old buildings" is the third.

I think that Automobile Alley & its crossings at and above NW 9th would be ideal for such a development, where it has already begun. It could become a premier city destination, I'm thinking.

Doug, you got me at the Cherry Street example. I love that corridor, as well as Brookside. But perhaps a difference is that Cherry is not really in downtown. It's quite separated from downtown by the BA Expwy and the IDL-loop system around downtown Tulsa. Cherry is surrounded by the most eclectic neighbohoods of Midtown Tulsa, where many artists and other interesting types reside. Midtown Tulsa, as a city-region, is an institution. There is no OKC equivalent. Perhaps their never will be.

Maybe we should just accept that we can not recreate Tulsa? We don't have the topography, the arts scene, or the required amount of snobs to do so. We should look to the more "laid-back" cities like Austin, who I think are more socially similar to us. We can learn from Austin more than we can learn from Tulsa, I think.

[J. Pitman]

I give you Western Ave.

Sorry but if you want to go from one end of Western To the other you have to drive. If you want to go from Sushi Neko to the Cock of the walk you pretty much have to drive.

Big difference from Peoria.

The paseao is great but in reality there are 3 restaurants there and a bar with a lot of art galleries.

My point is we don't really have a single street or district with high enough density where you can walk shop eat and drink without getting in and out of the car.

[J. Pitman]

I meant to add, maybe Automobile Alley can become that dense. I believe it has the potential.

[BoulderSooner]

sidwalks western ... i like that idea ... but where would we get the money from .............hmmmm

[Kerry]

Do you have any creative ideas?

A TIFF district?

[mcca7596]

Don't think that I haven't thought about the MAPS III sidewalks money... But it isn't a proper fit for that project.

Why is it not a good fit for MAPS funds? Is the intention to build sidewalks in less dense neighborhoods?

[dankrutka]

This is what OKC has always been missing in comparison to Tulsa. Cherry Street, Brookside, Blue Dome, and the Brady District are all vastly superior for walkability and entertainment options. On the large, the have a much better concentration of bars and restaurants than OKC. Everything in OKC is too spread out or in a bad location. I actually think 9th street off Broadway has the best potential in the short term if the south side of the street opened up a bar and maybe a few more shops. The key is that it is such a small area that it only needs a couple nice projects and it could be a cool, walkable place to spend a night...

[jbrown84]

Bomber, have you seen some of the nicer instances where a national retailer has gone into a setting like this and not done a "stupid box retail area" but really conformed to what the area is like already? You should look into the downtowns of cities like Lawrence and Boulder.

Old Town Pasadena here in the LA area is exactly what AA could be. It's centered on a high-traffic 5-lane street with historic significance (Route 66) and with a highway running parallel.

[J. Pitman]

Old Town Pasadena here in the LA area is exactly what AA could be. It's centered on a high-traffic 5-lane street with historic significance (Route 66) and with a highway running parallel.

I've always heard that after the bombing the Urban Land Institute did a downtown study, and made recommendations that Automobile Alley could be exactly like Old Town Pasadena.

Does anyone know if this is true?

[jbrown84]

I think AA is much more conducive to retail development than Bricktown because of they type of existing buildings. You need those big storefront windows. I think Old Town Pasadena is perhaps the best example I have seen of what AA could be. It has a good mix of national [upscale] chains and local destination shops and restaurants. It sees tons of traffic both in cars and pedestrians. They have several city-owned (I presume) garages which allow 1-2 hours free parking, then charge after that.


More pictures of Old Town Pasadena:

[Kerry]

Old Pasadena is a perfect example of what I have been saying. Until all or most of Automobile Alley is owned by one entity it will never develop into a retail area. Retailers all want to be next to each other and they want to deal with the same person.

http://www.onecolorado.com/facts.html

One Colorado is the premier location for retail, restaurants, entertainmentand office-use in Old Pasadena.

Situated on one city block in the heart of the district, One Colorado is the project that spurred the redevelopment of Old Pasadena, having attracted Crate & Barrel, J. Crew, Armani A/X, The Gap and Il Fornaio when the rest of the area was still largely vacant (1991).

...

TENANT MIX

Retail Stores: 25
Restaurants: 7
Entertainment: 1
Office Tenants: 12
SIZE

One city block; 275,000 leasable square footage
PARKING

840 adjacent spaces; 6,200 within a 3-block radius

[metro]

Yeah, but auto a
Lye has two major players, Salyer and Mason. They are good friends and have forward vision for the city, the could easily make it happen.

[mcca7596]

Steve, will you be able to say soon what restaurant will go into the Packard?

[Urban Pioneer]

sidwalks western ... i like that idea ... but where would we get the money from .............hmmmm

This already happening over the entire 23rd to I-44 length using GO Bond money approved by voters in 2007. I believe it may start this year. It is almost entirely purposes as a "Walkability" project.

[Rover]

Isn't One Colorado in Pasadena actually a very suburban style "lifestyle center" type mall? If it is the one I think it is, it is an area very much like lower Bricktown would be with the Condos, movie theaters, etc. if it was more fully developed as a mall area. Perhaps that's what could go into the lumber yard. One Colorado isn't historic, but abuts the historic area. It has a nice plaza and low rise shopping. Something I thought this crowd was against.

[Kerry]

Isn't One Colorado in Pasadena actually a very suburban style "lifestyle center" type mall? If it is the one I think it is, it is an area very much like lower Bricktown would be with the Condos, movie theaters, etc. if it was more fully developed as a mall area. Perhaps that's what could go into the lumber yard. One Colorado isn't historic, but abuts the historic area. It has a nice plaza and low rise shopping. Something I thought this crowd was against.

One Colorado is not a suburban style 'life style' center. It does have interior walk ways but those are just the old alleys that were turned into pedestrian walkways. There are no surface parking spaces, the buildings are pushed out to the sidewalk, and the buildings create positive interior space. It doesn't get much more 'urban' than that. Height has nothing to do with urban.

[bombermwc]

But Old Navy? Come on. Bell Isle is how far away? It's also easier to get to, and you parking fanatics would note how much more parking there is at BI. Just like someone else said, you have to have something that isn't available elsewhere in town....otherwise why would someone make the extra trip downtown.

And there in lies the problem. Downtown living is still mostly centered around two groupw. 1 - the upscale folks that shop at Banana Republic, not Old Navy (same company). 2 - the economically depressed. There's an extreme mix of the two in this area, but east downtown it mostly more of the depressed folks....Heritage Hills is mostly a Midtown area on the west side of downtown. With as much time as I spent in the area in college, I can speak from experience from the many friends that lived anywhere from 235 over to 44, from NWXway down to 5th. So in order for you to have retail, you also have to have something to draw from locally. No one is going to build basing their profit on people driving from all over town to come there if they are a chain with stores elsewhere in town. For a chain like Old Navy, they don't get anything at all out of it except higher rent, lower foot traffic, and low sales.

As said, retail wants to be near retail. HOWEVER, that does not mean that retail is exclusive to nation brands. We could just as easily have a unique shopping district in OKC (and not have to copy some other town that ISN'T OKC) by having our local names out there on Broadway. Hideaway is a perfect example of that. We've got art galleries, banks, office space, restaurants are slowly developing, we just need to complete the picture. Something as simple as a Children's Place (as far as I know, the MWC one is the only one in town) could be a major item for them....small footprint store, but with high flow. And independatly sustainable because of the demographic. That's the kind of retail we should be going after. There are several stores like Children's Place in town that are locally owned. Just PLEASE don't put something weird like "Urban Cowgirl" in there. That's just what we need, another failed concept weird "upscale" store.

[Kerry]

I was just looking at all the different property owners in Auto Alley and I don't think retail wise that it will ever be much more than it is right now. The streetcar is going to help some but it is going to take a lot of people living near by to support local retailers. National chains or recognized brands are never going to locate there. If you prefer that, that's cool, but you are going to be waiting a long long time. After 20 years of trying to lure retail how many retailers are there? It would be much better if they focused on professional and business services.