Religion Question

[Patrick]

Oooohhh...I see we aced "Arrogance 101" in med school! Congrats!

I'm still waiting for you to back up your viewpoints with facts. So far, you've shown nothing.

[jbrown84]

You should see what's going on in the Jesus Camp thread Patrick.

The atheists are really off their game today.

[Patrick]

You should see what's going on in the Jesus Camp thread Patrick.

The atheists are really off their game today.

[Tim]

I'm still waiting for you to back up your viewpoints with facts. So far, you've shown nothing.

I believe that christianity is a belief system based on a story written by men. You believe that the Bible is the word of God. Neither position is provable by scientific methods, therefore both are viable. What I take issue with is your utter lack of respect for beliefs different from yours.

[jbrown84]

Where did you see lack of respect?

Easy called the Bible senseless.

[Patrick]

I believe that christianity is a belief system based on a story written by men. You believe that the Bible is the word of God. Neither position is provable by scientific methods, therefore both are viable. What I take issue with is your utter lack of respect for beliefs different from yours.

Uhh, I respect your right to have a different opinion.

Even if you don't believe the Bible is the Word of God, what's wrong with a historical story written by men? All of history is essentially a story written by men. Does that mean we shouldn't believe it? Was George Washington really a fake? What about Alexander the Great? Hey, is there really any way to prove that those stories are real? Yet, we still accept them as fact, right?

[Tim]

Patrick, you misquoted me. I said "story" not "historical". Story as in "novel". I do not doubt that there may be some history tucked away in there, but I cannot accept the whole thing as literal fact.
jbrown, I'm not responsible for easy180, and frankly, you Christian types can be a tad nasty when someone disagrees with you. No offense intended, just my perception. Anyhoo, I'm bowing out for a weekend of godless, pagan liberal debauchery. You guys have a great weekend too, and we'll swap stories Tuesday!

[jbrown84]

I never said it was all literal fact. For example, Genesis is poetry and I don't think there was a literal 7-day creation.

[Patrick]

Patrick, you misquoted me. I said "story" not "historical". Story as in "novel". I do not doubt that there may be some history tucked away in there, but I cannot accept the whole thing as literal fact.
jbrown, I'm not responsible for easy180, and frankly, you Christian types can be a tad nasty when someone disagrees with you. No offense intended, just my perception. Anyhoo, I'm bowing out for a weekend of godless, pagan liberal debauchery. You guys have a great weekend too, and we'll swap stories Tuesday!

Story. There are also stories about the Roman Empire, Columbus sailing the ocean blue in 1492 (hey, that rhymes!!), Martin Luther's reformation movement, Abraham Lincoln fighting in the civil war, etc. Whose to say that they're literal fact? There's no one alive today from back then to prove that those stories are factual. They could've all been made up, just like the Bible, right?

[bandnerd]

So we're not supposed to question the Bible because now we're supposed to suspect that all history, even recent history (Lincoln was only a couple hundred years ago) is all falsified?

[Patrick]

So we're not supposed to question the Bible because now we're supposed to suspect that all history, even recent history (Lincoln was only a couple hundred years ago) is all falsified?

Well, if you're going with the notion that those stories are written by man, and that man is imperfect, yes, we should question the truth of all of the above.

Really though, I see all of the above as factual history books. So, it depends on whether you think history books are factual, or false since they're written by imperfect men.

IMO, the Bible is like any other history book.

[bandnerd]

And in my humble opinion, the bible tells a nice story, but is far from factual. Sure, it has some good guidelines (avoid adultery, murder, etc.) but other than that, it has no meaning to me.

As for secular humanism in the classroom...have you people ever even looked or read about secular humanism?

Frankly, in my classrooms, I teach MUSIC and JOURNALISM. Religion is very rarely a part of it. I teach responsibility for your own actions...i.e. PRACTICE and deadlines...and I discuss current events with my students. They know I am not a religious person, and it doesn't bother them. Once in awhile, a student will urge me to go to church, but they don't get very far. I have discussed the various religions with my classes at different points for different reasons in different classes...but I would think that Christians, Buddhists, and Muslims could all agree that taking responsibility for your own actions, being a humble person, and having what we as humans refer to as "ethics" would all be good traits of a human being, regardless of race, creed, culture, socioeconomic background, OR religion.

And, yes, Atheists can be ethical AND moral, though we may not believe that an almighty power gave us the book to tell us how to be.

[Keith]

And, yes, Atheists can be ethical AND moral

Really??? Hmmmmm

[bandnerd]

I'm an Atheist, Keith. Given my history here, would you say that I am not ethical or moral? I know we disagree on some things like abortion and pre-marital sex...but that aside (and these are NOT issues I discuss with my students, btw...I let the Health teacher cover that) would you say that I am inherently a bad person? I am loyal to my husband, and my job...I have never intentionally hurt anyone, I try to help out my fellow man when I can via donations to reputable charities like Goodwill, I teach inner city kids how to get into college for crying out loud...are these not ethically and morally sound actions?

What, exactly to you, Keith, makes a person ethical or moral? Does it have to do with God? Because every definition I have ever found about either do not refer to any higher power. Just pull up Webster's online, if you don't believe me.

[Patrick]

Really the risk lies with you.

Say the Bible is true. If it ends up being true, you're the one that has to pay the price in hell for denying Christ.

If the Bible isn't true, I haven't lost anything.

By default, the person that believes in the Bible and accepts Christ has lower risk.

Sure, that's not a good reason to believe the Bible. But, it's something to think about.

[Patrick]

And in my humble opinion, the bible tells a nice story, but is far from factual. Sure, it has some good guidelines (avoid adultery, murder, etc.) but other than that, it has no meaning to me.

I think we have to look at which facts you're referring to. Actually, if you read the Bible you will find that it is a pretty factual history book. Most of the events in the Bible can be proven with fossil records and the like. Most people don't question that the events described in the Bible did occur. Most people just question whether the parts that discuss God and Jesus are true.

You can actually go to Christ's tomb in Israel. And you can go to most of the places mentioned in the Bible. The Bible is very specific on where events occurred. If you go to Israel, you can actually see the exact locations where those events occurred. I mean it was only 2000 years ago. Heck, we're learning a lot about ancient Egyptian history now, and that was long before Christ lived on the earth. We accept most of that as true to some extent.

The Bible tells a story just like any other book. It's actually just a history book.

Again, it's the parts that discuss that there is a God and that Jesus is God that some people disagree with. Not the actual historical events.

It's just like with the Koran. The Koran is actually a very factual book of history. Most of the events mentioned in the Koran did occur. But, I just differ on their view points that Mohammad was god.

Same thing with Buddhists. Most of their history in China is very factual. I just don't think that Buddha was a real god. I see him more as just a person that existed, not a god.

It's really that doctrinal differences that are in question, not the actual historical events mentioned.

I doubt many people deny that Jesus was crucified on a cross with two thieves. That was actually quite common in those days, and as I said, Christ's tomb is still there. Go see it sometime. It's really the notion that Jesus was God and that he was resurrected that non-Christian people question.
Even the Muslims knows Jesus was a real human figure. But, they see him more as just a prophet and not the Messiah.

As for secular humanism in the classroom...have you people ever even looked or read about secular humanism?

Yeah, it was actually a required course in my high school.

but I would think that Christians, Buddhists, and Muslims could all agree that taking responsibility for your own actions, being a humble person, and having what we as humans refer to as "ethics" would all be good traits of a human being, regardless of race, creed, culture, socioeconomic background, OR religion.

I actually agree that one can be without religion and still be an ethical person. Sure, you can be a good person and not be religious or spiritual.

And, yes, Atheists can be ethical AND moral, though we may not believe that an almighty power gave us the book to tell us how to be.

I actually agree with that.

[bandnerd]

I am perfectly capable of accepting the risks if what I have decided to believe in. If I am wrong, I am wrong...and it is nothing more than that. If I am right, then nothing happens after I die. I can accept being wrong--I do it quite often---can you? Have you really lost nothing if the Bible isn't true, Patrick?

[Patrick]

I'm an Atheist, Keith. Given my history here, would you say that I am not ethical or moral? I know we disagree on some things like abortion and pre-marital sex...but that aside (and these are NOT issues I discuss with my students, btw...I let the Health teacher cover that) would you say that I am inherently a bad person? I am loyal to my husband, and my job...I have never intentionally hurt anyone, I try to help out my fellow man when I can via donations to reputable charities like Goodwill, I teach inner city kids how to get into college for crying out loud...are these not ethically and morally sound actions?

What, exactly to you, Keith, makes a person ethical or moral? Does it have to do with God? Because every definition I have ever found about either do not refer to any higher power. Just pull up Webster's online, if you don't believe me.

bandnerd, I'd say your an ethical person. Religion doesn't necessarily dictate ethics, although it can. There are many good citizens in the world that don't have any faith or religion.

[Patrick]

I am perfectly capable of accepting the risks if what I have decided to believe in. If I am wrong, I am wrong...and it is nothing more than that. If I am right, then nothing happens after I die. I can accept being wrong--I do it quite often---can you? Have you really lost nothing if the Bible isn't true, Patrick?

No, if the Bible isn't true I haven't lost anything. I don't consider living a sinful life with prostitutes, drugs, sex with multiple partners, gangs, broken homes, etc. really a positive life to live. If anything, the Bible has allowed me to live a better life, much more enjoyable.

Again, if you're wrong, you end up spending your life in hell, with your flesh constantly burning and no way to kill the pain, worms crawling through your flesh and no way to stop it, constant thirst and hunger, exteme pain, separation from God, the complete wrath of Satan, complete darkness, complete loneliness and separation from anyone, etc. for eternity. Basically, you're playing with fire, literally. Go pour some gas on your body, and light a match. I bet you couldn't stand 5 seconds of that. If the Bible ends up being true, you'll have to spend an eternity feeling like that. I can't even begin to imagine.

The latter isn't a risk I'm willing to take. I'd rather enjoy the best of both worlds by not taking that risk when I don't have to. Really, Christianity is a win win.

[bandnerd]

Gee, are you trying to scare me, Patrick? What does it matter to you?

What I meant was, if you are wrong, in fact, and there is no higher power, and you spent your entire life worshiping something/someone that doesn't exist....would you not feel like you have lost something? Time? Effort? Would you not feel your efforts to be a good Christian were in vain and you were lied to?

[Patrick]

Gee, are you trying to scare me, Patrick? What does it matter to you?

Oh no, there's no scare tactics involved. That's just the beliefs of the Bible. If the Bible is true, I win, you lose. If the Bible isn't true, neither of us lose. So, you're the only one that could possibly lose. And, honestly, it doesn't matter to me one way or the other. I'm just making a point.

What I meant was, if you are wrong, in fact, and there is no higher power, and you spent your entire life worshiping something/someone that doesn't exist....would you not feel like you have lost something? Time? Effort? Would you not feel your efforts to be a good Christian were in vain and you were lied to?

No, I wouldn't feel like I had lost anything. Really, the time isn't an issue. Shoot, how much time do I spend on this website? Probably more than I've ever spent at church. It's more just something I enjoy to do. Call it a hobby if you will. Really, Chritianity doesn't have to be the ritualistic, works driven format like your husband's parents belong to. Christianity can be a fun thing. Just ask all of the people that go to LifeChurch how fun church can really be. Ask patients in the hospital that have the support of their church if they think they've lost anything by being part of the church...most will tell you they couldn't get through their health problems if it wasn't for the love and support of their church. Ask Christians where most of their friends are....most will say at church.
Really, being a good Christian involves being a regular good person. So, other than for the worshipping part and acceptance of Christ, there really wouldn't be a difference. If anything I've gained a positive lifestyle, a lot of close friends, a good support group, some great food LOL!, a feeling like I'm investing in a worthy cause to help those in need, etc. So, if for some reason Christianity ended up not being right, I wouldn't feel short changed at all. I've gained so much from the church....far more than I've put into it, I know that for sure.

Again, it's a win win for me either way you go.

In regards to feeling lied to.....no one has made me accept these beliefs. I've accepted them on my own. So, that's really not an issue.

In regards to effort....I don't see Christianity as an effort. As I said, I think I gain so much from Christanity, I probably get more than I ever give.

As far as other people.......

Those that do charitable work.....well, really they'd probably do it regardless....doing charitable work does something to the psyche that can't be explained. It's a great self esteem booster.

Those that participate in the worship by playing an instrument, singing etc. Most of those people really have fun doing that.

My wife and I work with kids in the nursery. We don't really do it because we feel we have to. We do it because it's fun working with the kids.

Really, if a Christian thinks any of their tasks require too muh effort, they really shouldn't be doing them.

Really, I think Christianity is pretty fun. I also take it very seriously, but that doesn't mean it can't be fun at the same time.

[bandnerd]

That's great that it's fun for you. I have plenty of fun in my life, as well as good friendship, and food, and yet I still do good deeds for the community. If I were to join a belief system, Catholicism would actually be the way I would go because I believe that to be a good person you have to do good things for humankind and not just make yourself look good to others.

I understand what "being a good Christian" means. It has been shown/told to me since I was much younger than I am now. These are not new concepts you present to me. My rejection of God as the Creator comes from something much deeper than a love of potlucks and fellowship.

For me, what matters is my husband supports me in my beliefs, or lack thereof, and I support him in the same way. Whatever else is said to me by others, be it people in my life or people in this site, is negligible, and unimportant to me.

And wow, if this thread hasn't gotten off topic.

[JerzeeGrlinOKC]

No, if the Bible isn't true I haven't lost anything. I don't consider living a sinful life with prostitutes, drugs, sex with multiple partners, gangs, broken homes, etc. really a positive life to live. If anything, the Bible has allowed me to live a better life, much more enjoyable.

Again, if you're wrong, you end up spending your life in hell, with your flesh constantly burning and no way to kill the pain, worms crawling through your flesh and no way to stop it, constant thirst and hunger, exteme pain, separation from God, the complete wrath of Satan, complete darkness, complete loneliness and separation from anyone, etc. for eternity. Basically, you're playing with fire, literally. Go pour some gas on your body, and light a match. I bet you couldn't stand 5 seconds of that. If the Bible ends up being true, you'll have to spend an eternity feeling like that. I can't even begin to imagine.

The latter isn't a risk I'm willing to take. I'd rather enjoy the best of both worlds by not taking that risk when I don't have to. Really, Christianity is a win win.

Ok I promised myself I wouldn't get involved with these posts because it does seem like everyone like to gang up on the non-Christian...

Anyhow, this quote bothers me so extremely, and I think its the reason why Christians that think like this miss the boat of why morality even exists in religion, including Christianity...

Allow me to throw the literal minutia of the Bible out the door for a minute here and let me ask you a very hypothetical question (Patrick, or anyone else...): Would you obey the words of Christ's disciples so readily if you didn't feel like you had this threat of "hell" behind you? And what is really wrong with being an ethical person for the sake of goodness and kind deeds alone? I personally don't believe in hell but I have faith in God and do what's right because I honor and love my Creator, and that's all that I need. It's not about winning a game of who goes to hell and who doesn't, its about sacrificing yourself to make the world, this world we live in now, a better place. If I do go to this nasty hell you speak of, well, at least I didn't just try to live a good life for my personal fate alone.

Well I'm probably not guaranteed to get a friendly response here, but I just want to give my two cents.

[JerzeeGrlinOKC]

If you could vote to allow religion to be taught in public schools, would you do it? Consider the equal protection clause of the US Constitution. If you vote yes, this means that your child would be exposed to Christianity, Hindu, Islam, Paganism, and others. Would this be good exposure for them, or under these circumstances would you rather religion not be taught in school?

Oh and to address the topic of the post, I said yes of course, if time is given equally to all religions, which I hope would guarantee that religions are to be taught with a historical perspective and that no one religion is taught as "better" or "more right" by any official at a public school. That would be grounds for dismissal, in my opinion. I think a mandatory "World Religions" course should be part of all public school humanities curiculum.

[Keith]

Ok I promised myself I wouldn't get involved with these posts because it does seem like everyone like to gang up on the non-Christian...

Anyhow, this quote bothers me so extremely, and I think its the reason why Christians that think like this miss the boat of why morality even exists in religion, including Christianity...

Allow me to throw the literal minutia of the Bible out the door for a minute here and let me ask you a very hypothetical question (Patrick, or anyone else...): Would you obey the words of Christ's disciples so readily if you didn't feel like you had this threat of "hell" behind you? And what is really wrong with being an ethical person for the sake of goodness and kind deeds alone? I personally don't believe in hell but I have faith in God and do what's right because I honor and love my Creator, and that's all that I need. It's not about winning a game of who goes to hell and who doesn't, its about sacrificing yourself to make the world, this world we live in now, a better place. If I do go to this nasty hell you speak of, well, at least I didn't just try to live a good life for my personal fate alone.

Well I'm probably not guaranteed to get a friendly response here, but I just want to give my two cents.

We aren't here to gang up on anyone. I would still obey the Word's of Christ, even if there wasn't a threat of hell. But, by faith, I believe there is a heaven and hell.

In my opinion, you can do good deeds, be a good person, be involved in some great organizations, give to the poor, help the homeless, and on and on and on......but living a "good" life doesn't get you to heaven, only accepting Jesus as your Savior does.

I have absolutely nothing against non-believers, unless they come on and bash Christianity for no reason at all. There are many members on this forum that are non-believers, so there is a variety of opinions. There are a few that are childish and make fun of religion and Christianity, however, most of them are very respectful of others' beliefs.

I just want the reassurance that I am going to heaven....and I have it.