Is there room for the NFL in Oklahoma?

[ljbab728]

Excellent point. I remember going to OU games in the mid-90's when things were bad, and that 75K-seat stadium that I had grown up accustomed to it being filled every week was barely over half full, endzones barely occupied, and sitting in my choice of upper-deck chairback seats. It was sad. The Athletic Department hemorrhaged money in those days because the football team wasn't bringing in the $$ to subsidize all the other sports.

The point being is that when the Thunder has a down year or two, which is bound to happen, it will be interesting to see what happens to fan support.

It's not that important as it pertains to this thread but I've been going to OU games for almost 50 years. Your rememberance of the 1990's is a little off. The lowest attendance for any game during that decade was 54,463 and no other games were under 60,000. All other games were at least in the 60-65 thousand range. Was there a downturn? Off course, but nothing like you stated. Now in a year like 1996 when we lost at home to Nebraska 73 - 21 it's very likely that the stadium got very empty later during the game.

http://www.soonersports.com/sports/m...sons1990s.html

[icecold]

I think they only sell 3.2 beer.

Not true. I bought several gin and tonics in the Club Level at Boone Pickens Stadium this year. Also, alcohol is available at NCAA Championships if you are in a suite. They just ask that you do not take the beverage out of your suite.

[Oil Capital]

Not true. I bought several gin and tonics in the Club Level at Boone Pickens Stadium this year. Also, alcohol is available at NCAA Championships if you are in a suite. They just ask that you do not take the beverage out of your suite.

Then I guess OSU is flat-out lying on their own website.

Alcohol being available in a suite is not the same as alcohol being sold at a game. In the same manner, alcohol can be available in OSU suites if the suite-holder/owner brings it in and serves it.

[Laramie]

Oklahoma City will probably be projected to have anywhere from 1.5 to 1.750 by 2020. This city has picked up its growth pace as of late.

There will be over 4 million people within a 100-mile radius of Oklahoma City come 2020. I realize that the NFL's standard are different from the NBA's.

Our metro-area increased by roughly 200,000 from 2000 to 2010. Will will probably increase by 250,000 to 350,000 over this next census period.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_o...tistical_Areas

Los Angeles, Portland and San Antonio are markets which have the population base to support an NFL franchise.

Los Angeles currently doesn't have a stadium with amenities to support the NFL--they could provide temporary support until an NFL-ready stadium is built.

Portland doesn't have a stadium that could provide temporary support. The City of Portland recently purchased the Rose Garden which was built by Paul Allen and the City of Portland for the NBA Trailblazers. Portland Rose Garden: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_Garden_(arena).


San Antonio does have the 'Alamodome," http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alamodome. They are in a position to welcome a relocation franchise. This stadium was built in 1993 and will be 20-years old come 2013.

Sometime around 2020, Oklahoma City needs to be in a position to welcome an NFL franchise should one become available. Oklahoma City's only chance of getting a relocation franchise would be the temporary use of 85,000-seat Gaylord Family Oklahoma Memorial Stadium on the condition that there are concrete plans to build a permanent facility in Oklahoma City to house an NFL franchise. Mayor Cornett and the City does have plans to put some type of stadium on the MAPS IV 2017 ballot and keep the momentum going.

We will definitely need a stadium which could be expanded and a roof added later. We will need to start out with an outdoor facility with a minimum seating capacity of 50,000 - 60,000 costing in the neighborhood of $300 million; something that could be expanded and a roof added if necessary. As we did with the downtown arena "MAPS FOR HOOPS" prior to the NBA falling in our laps, an extension could be added to increase seating to 75-80,000-plus and add a retractable roof.

Keep in mind that we are talking about the future. I understand that this probably won't happen with some of you in your lifetime. I heard this same phrase being said in the 90s before Oklahoma City secured an NBA franchise in 2006.

We need to be READY!

[Bunty]

Then include plans for a stadium for the next MAPS vote. Maybe some metro area with a NFL team is declining in population and/or fan support and will soon be needing to look for a new home.

[Oil Capital]

it's good to plan ahead... But I think you are jumping the gun, by at least a decade. We may make it to 1.5 million by 2020, but it requires a substantial jump in our growth rate. What is the evidence that the growth rate has increased substantially? There is almost zero chance of getting to 1.75 million by 2020. That would require growth of almost 40%!!

[BoulderSooner]

As far as I know, it is an NCAA rule and violation to sell alcohol. There is no way that West Virginia sells alcohol legally. As far as I know, the only reason it could be done legally is if the school in question holds their games in a professional venue. We all know that bowl games sell alcohol. Big XII Tourney games sell alcohol. But if it's at a school, it will not happen--for the general public. Those in suites, yes. Cause my complaint is if I paid $1,400 for a suite ticket I better damn well be getting to drink free alcohol!

this is so wrong i don't know where to start ...

[icecold]

Then I guess OSU is flat-out lying on their own website.

Alcohol being available in a suite is not the same as alcohol being sold at a game. In the same manner, alcohol can be available in OSU suites if the suite-holder/owner brings it in and serves it.

No OSU is not flat out lying. You are looking at the wrong information. The Suite Level and Club Levels at OSU are completely separate. The info you posted regarding the Suite Level is correct. If they want to have liquor in their suite then they buy it through Cowboy Dining and it is charged to the suite owner.

In the CLUB LEVEL, there is a big bar where you can buy any beer, liquor or wine of your choice. Can even take shots if you desire. So try looking up the correct information and informing yourself before you just say OSU, WV, OU etc are just flat out breaking the law. "As far as I know" doesnt mean you know.

[Oil Capital]

Lighten up dude. You could have provided that helpful information in response to my post from the OSU website, instead of just saying "not true."

Just trying to figure out if it's truly not allowed under the law and if OSU is somehow getting around the law. Still not sure... I noticed now on the OSU website that it says club seat holders can contact Cowboy Dining to set up a "tab" at the club level bar. Is that a way to avoid "selling" alcohol on the premises?

[Snowman]

Lighten up dude. You could have provided that helpful information in response to my post from the OSU website, instead of just saying "not true."

Just trying to figure out if it's truly not allowed under the law and if OSU is somehow getting around the law. Still not sure... I noticed now on the OSU website that it says club seat holders can contact Cowboy Dining to set up a "tab" at the club level bar. Is that a way to avoid "selling" alcohol on the premises?

A tab is only a variation on how you are paying, instead of having to pay when each individual item is received, you pay for all off them at the end of the night or whatever period they allow before payment is due. So it would still be served, sold and likely payed on the premises.

[OKCisOK4me]

this is so wrong i don't know where to start ...

You know... it seems everyone is wrong on the subject. Oil Capital already pointed that out so why don't you chill out.

[Laramie]

Then include plans for a stadium for the next MAPS vote. Maybe some metro area with a NFL team is declining in population and/or fan support and will soon be needing to look for a new home.

"Many of them are due to difficulties getting a new stadium (49ers, Raiders, Chargers, Bills, Vikings); a decrease in season ticket holders (Jaguars, Bills, Rams), and some have even had the dreaded B word, the local blackout." -- ( http://bleacherreport.com/articles/4...ssible-futures )

Not expecting or hoping for a community hardship; we just need to be in a position to be able to secure a team. This city is going to really begin a real 'boom' following the decade after 2015.

[Oil Capital]

A tab is only a variation on how you are paying, instead of having to pay when each individual item is received, you pay for all off them at the end of the night or whatever period they allow before payment is due. So it would still be served, sold and likely payed on the premises.

Yeah, I know what a tab is. But in any other establishment one runs a tab by giving them a credit card. One does not have to arrange it by contacting the management. Maybe I'm reading too much into the way they wrote it. But I'm reading it in the context of the earlier posts that said OK law does not allow alcohol in college stadia.

[Oil Capital]

Sorry. Duplicate post

[Oil Capital]

You know... it seems everyone is wrong on the subject. Oil Capital already pointed that out so why don't you chill out.

WTF? I never said or implied any such thing. I'm just trying to figure out the lay of the land w/re: to alcohol at college games in Ok

[Oil Capital]

Asking again if you have evidence that OKC's growth rate has signifi antly accelerated?

[Laramie]

Asking again if you have evidence that OKC's growth rate has signifi antly accelerated?

My bad, Oil Capital:

No true measreable evidence; some slight indicators though! Just a feel I have for seeing so much construction & development around town like central city housing developments, job growth (Boeing, Continental Resources...), expansion of companies and talking with people from Kansas City, Fort Smith & Amarillo who are trying to relocate here and seeing an abundance of Texas license plates around--people are relocating or returning home...

You've been on this board long enough to see my previous posts and know that I am overly optimistic!

[Laramie]

The opportunities will come and go. Los Angeles is probably the goal of the NFL for relocation especially since it's the largest market without an NFL franchise. Cities like Portland, San Antonio, Norfolk-Virginia Beach, Oklahoma City, Raleigh, Salt Lake City, Birmingham & Louisville will be on the radar from 2015 to 2020. San Antonio does have a stadium capable of housing an NFL team. Birmingham and Louisville both have facilities which could house an NFL franchise on a temporary basis.

Who needs to build or improve (November 2011):

Minneapolis: A fight over government subsidies to build a new NFL stadium has riveted Minnesota’s Capitol in recent weeks, fueled largely by fears that the end of the Vikings’ Metrodome lease after this season could make them a prospect for Los Angeles or another city seeking an NFL franchise.

St. Louis:The Rams’ lease allows them to move after the 2014 season if the Edward Jones Dome is not deemed among the top quarter of all NFL stadiums by various measurements. It’s unlikely local officials can meet those requirements, but both parties say they’re willing to work together. The city’s convention commission spent $30 million upgrading the facility before the 2010 season, installing new scoreboards and video boards and upgrading club seating.

Jacksonville: The Jaguars were seen as a leading candidate to relocate in 2009, but majority owner Wayne Weaver has said repeatedly he has no plans to move the team. Jacksonville blacked out seven home games in 2009 amid slumping ticket sales, but the small-market franchise avoided blackouts in the 13 home games since. The 76-year-old Weaver has spent the last few years looking for an “exit strategy,” saying he plans to sell the franchise that cost his investment group $140 million in 1993. Last month, Weaver denied rumors he was negotiating to sell the team to FedEx founder Fred Smith. If Weaver does sell the team, he likely would want assurances it would remain in Jacksonville—at least for a short-term duration.

San Diego: The Chargers have tried since 2002 to replace Qualcomm Stadium, even though it was expanded by 10,000 seats at public cost in 1997. After exploring options at the Qualcomm site and in several suburbs, they say they’re down to their last, best option, on the edge of downtown not far from the Padres’ Petco Park. But no financing plans or site renderings have been released. The Chargers remain a leading candidate to move to Los Angeles if one of those stadium projects moves forward. They have a clause in their lease with the city that gives them a window between Feb. 1 and April 30 to seek a better deal elsewhere.

Oakland, Calif.: The Raiders’ lease at the Coliseum runs through the 2013 season and the Raiders would like to be able to have a more modern and lucrative stadium. Mark Davis, running the team after the death of his father, Al, last month, has not talked about his plans for the future. The team’s stated preference has been to build a new stadium at the site of the Coliseum, but there has been little movement toward that goal. The Raiders have also talked with the San Francisco 49ers about sharing a stadium. The Niners are trying to build a new stadium in Santa Clara

Buffalo:The Buffalo Bills aren’t in danger of relocating so long as Ralph Wilson is alive. The Detroit-based, Hall of Fame owner and team founder maintains he has no intention of selling the team or relocating it. Wilson turned 93 two weeks ago, and has provided no succession plan after his death, other than to have his heirs put the team on the market. That could open the door for a franchise move. Hall of Fame quarterback Jim Kelly, who assembled a group of potential buyers, and Buffalo Sabres owner Terry Pegula are considered candidates to buy the team and keep it in Buffalo. They will have to out-bid other potential candidates, who could well be interested in relocating the team elsewhere.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slu...stadium-glance


2017 (next MAPS extension) rolls around, there will be a number of situations where NFL teams will be looking to relocate. Gaylord Family Oklahoma Memorial Stadium could be available for temporary use if an NFL is wanting to relocate to OKC.

Houston didn't take Nashville's invitation to bring the Oilers to the Music City very seriously. Nashville was armed and ready. Their mayor locked the Oilers into a exclusive negotiations right to derail counter-offers from the city of Houston. This helped avoid Nashville being used as a pawn for Houston to get a new stadium built. Tennessee's capital stayed locked in until an agreement could be read to bring the NFL Oilers to Nashville:

1997: Houston Oilers moved to Memphis and became the Tennessee Oilers. The team originally planned to play both 1997 and 1998 in Liberty Bowl Memorial Stadium in Memphis before moving to their intended destination of Nashville. However, due to poor attendance, the team moved to Nashville in 1998, playing in Vanderbilt University's stadium. The team was renamed the Tennessee Titans in 1999, when their new stadium was opened. The NFL eventually awarded Houston an expansion team for 2002.

Nashville's metro population in 2000 grew from 1.3 million to 1.6 million in 2010. They support both the NFL and the NHL.

Should we decide that the NFL may be an option; ee will definitely need to bring in a consultant to avoid having an obsolete facility built which can't stand up to the changing enviromental amenities needed to sustain an NFL franhise long term (15-20 years).

Nashville (NFL, NHL) & New Orleans (NFL, NBA) are cities with demographics which resemble OKC at the time they were initially housing the two major league franchises.

[dcsooner]

Both States have larger populations than OK (TN much larger) and New Orleans draws from MS, Apples and Bannanas

[Laramie]

You are correct! I'm glad you brought that up. Using your Louisiana scenario including MS, you must remember that there are some 600,000 relocated Oklahomans within the last 15 yrs., currently living in the Dallas-Fort Worth area. Oklahoma City has already been identified as a city which would meet minimum requirements for NFL relocation or expansion. The NFL looks at the number of people who live within a 100-miles radius.

My point in bringing up the number of Okies now living in the Dallas-Fort Worth area has to do with the fact that although they are outside the 100-mile radius, many would drive from the Metroplex to OKC for some games.

I realize it's a pipedream that OKC could land a team. If we're stadium ready, who knows what's in store? There are many other reasons why building an NFL size stadium would be to our advantage:

1. An annual college bowl classic.
2. Some non-conference OU and/or OSU games could be played in OKC, if the facility was big enough.
3. Large religious gatherings.
4. Olympic trials and/or NCAA track & field events.
5. Some college football games involving Langston vs. Lincoln, Southern, Grambling...
6. State High School football playoffs, soccer, track & field events.
7. A Major League Soccer(MLS) tenant is a possibility.
8. Rodeos, Stock shows and special evnts.

[OKCisOK4me]

WTF? I never said or implied any such thing. I'm just trying to figure out the lay of the land w/re: to alcohol at college games in Ok

Post not directed at you...

[dcsooner]

You are correct! I'm glad you brought that up. Using your Louisiana scenario including MS, you must remember that there are some 600,000 relocated Oklahomans within the last 15 yrs., currently living in the Dallas-Fort Worth area. Oklahoma City has already been identified as a city which would meet minimum requirements for NFL relocation or expansion. The NFL looks at the number of people who live within a 100-miles radius.

My point in bringing up the number of Okies now living in the Dallas-Fort Worth area has to do with the fact that although they are outside the 100-mile radius, many would drive from the Metroplex to OKC for some games.

I realize it's a pipedream that OKC could land a team. If we're stadium ready, who knows what's in store? There are many other reasons why building an NFL size stadium would be to our advantage:

1. An annual college bowl classic.
2. Some non-conference OU and/or OSU games could be played in OKC, if the facility was big enough.
3. Large religious gatherings.
4. Olympic trials and/or NCAA track & field events.
5. Some college football games involving Langston vs. Lincoln, Southern, Grambling...
6. State High School football playoffs, soccer, track & field events.
7. A Major League Soccer(MLS) tenant is a possibility.
8. Rodeos, Stock shows and special evnts.

Maybe Oklahoma should first try to do the things necessary to keep at least half those 600K natives interested enough to want to stay in their home state. Then our population might be large enough to support a lot of other things the least of which would be pro football. (Just a thought)

[Snowman]

Maybe Oklahoma should first try to do the things necessary to keep at least half those 600K natives interested enough to want to stay in their home state. Then our population might be large enough to support a lot of other things the least of which would be pro football. (Just a thought)

That may already be happening, this was the first year in a while that more people moved to OK from TX, than to TX from OK.

[Oil Capital]

That may already be happening, this was the first year in a while that more people moved to OK from TX, than to TX from OK.

Interesting. Do you have a source you can share?

[SoonerDave]

You are correct! I'm glad you brought that up. Using your Louisiana scenario including MS, you must remember that there are some 600,000 relocated Oklahomans within the last 15 yrs., currently living in the Dallas-Fort Worth area. Oklahoma City has already been identified as a city which would meet minimum requirements for NFL relocation or expansion. The NFL looks at the number of people who live within a 100-miles radius.

My point in bringing up the number of Okies now living in the Dallas-Fort Worth area has to do with the fact that although they are outside the 100-mile radius, many would drive from the Metroplex to OKC for some games.

I realize it's a pipedream that OKC could land a team. If we're stadium ready, who knows what's in store? There are many other reasons why building an NFL size stadium would be to our advantage:

1. An annual college bowl classic.

There is increasing sentiment that there are too many bowl games, and with overall bowl attendance and TV viewership down substantially, I think it would take a great deal more than a once-per-year event to rationalize the extraordinary expense of such a facility.

2. Some non-conference OU and/or OSU games could be played in OKC, if the facility was big enough.

There is almost zero chance that either OU or OSU will be will to forfeit any portion of the revenues derived from a home game, especially considering OSU's brand new facility. Beyond that, there would be strident opposition among Norman and Stillwater area business for precisely the same reason. Oklahoma already "negates" a home game every other year to keep the Texas game in Dallas, and I think it would be foolhardy to think they'd be willing to surrender a second home game with no tangible benefit.

3. Large religious gatherings.

Last such regular, large gatherings I recall in the last decade or two was PromiseKeepers, and I don't think that organization is focused on those nearly so much, but I will admit to simply not knowing with certainty. Ultimately, however, I don't believe these would be of sufficient frequency and attendance to use them as the basis for rationalizing an NFL-sized stadium - particularly with ones already in place to the NE (Kansas City/Arrowhead), and two to the south - The "original" Cotton Bowl and Jerry World.

4. Olympic trials and/or NCAA track & field events.
5. Some college football games involving Langston vs. Lincoln, Southern, Grambling...
6. State High School football playoffs, soccer, track & field events.
7. A Major League Soccer(MLS) tenant is a possibility.
8. Rodeos, Stock shows and special evnts.

[/quote]
An Olympic trial venue would be relevant only once every four years at best. NCAA track and field events aren't going to draw the kinds of numbers that would make the rent justifiable. Voters who know that we have two useful stadiums already for high school championship events would be hard pressed to sell the expense of a new stadium on that basis alone. MLS venues, as discussed in another thread, scarcely populate (on a regular basis) even a third of the capacity of a prospective NFL stadium, to say nothing of the leasing costs associated therewith.

I know, I'm a wet blanket, I'm not progressive, etc. The point is that its one thing to have built our arena and to have backed into an NBA franchise. The city investment and risk responsibility we're talking about here is monumentally larger than that undertaken for the NBA, and while dreaming is great, there has to be at least a basic amount of reality in the mix. We need only look at the cautionary tales of other cities who have tried ventures in this area, only to find things turn out very, very badly. Read about what happened to Cincinnati here. We don't want to see OKC anywhere near this situation down the road.