Dowell Center

[Pete]

The Amenities Building is going where this is?

Yes

Is the large window-less area the location of the elevators?

Yes

[Urban Pioneer]

I think to judge Rick fairly, you must look at his entire downtown portfolio. The sheet metal, by the way, isn't his style (that was put up by the garage's former owner, the late John Cheek, who is a completely different story). I agree, there are misses. But there are some hits as well.

This.... is quite true. Very well put.

[Spartan]

Dowell will be creating a new eastern facade for the Dowell Center when Sandridge tears down the current elevator parking/office structure. The new facade will extend down to the top of Sandridge's new Amenities building.

Score another hideous development for Dowell.

[Steve]

How so?

[jbrown84]

I'm not sure how anyone else feels about the Dowell Center but I personally love the look of it. It's not my favorite building but it is up there.

It's not terrible. There are FAR uglier buildings downtown. But it was so much cooler in it's original state...

[MDot]

It's not terrible. There are FAR uglier buildings downtown. But it was so much cooler in it's original state...

I've never seen it in its original form.

[Spartan]

How so?

In this day and age you DO NOT need a blank facade due to elevator shafts. Nor does it need to be painted any color, let alone a hideous color (I'm sure that rendering is not an accurate depiction of any color palate for what looks to be typical painted reinforced concrete or hopefully not EIFS).

The Dowell Center is perhaps the 2nd ugliest building downtown, behind the AT&T...thing. It does not need to ever be a bright color. It needs to be reclad totally.

[Just the facts]

In this day and age you DO NOT need a blank facade due to elevator shafts.

It would be nice if he opened the elevator wall up with glass. It is too bad the people with money in OKC lack style.

[Steve]

I agree, the photo shown above would be a lot nicer. But then you have to factor in the reality of today's economy. Are you going to finance the reconstruction of the elevator banks?

[Rover]

[QUOTE=Just the facts;483632]It would be nice if he opened the elevator wall up with glass. It is too bad the people with money in OKC lack style./QUOTE]

And the all the critics who have the "style" (self proclaimed, that is) are the ones without the money to do something significant. Makes you wonder that maybe the issue isn't "style" but rather the ability to make good investment decisions. It is easy to criticize other's lack of "style" but hard to spend your own money.

[Just the facts]

And the all the critics who have the "style" (self proclaimed, that is) are the ones without the money to do something significant. Makes you wonder that maybe the issue isn't "style" but rather the ability to make good investment decisions. It is easy to criticize other's lack of "style" but hard to spend your own money.

Then explain why stylish architecture exist at all. Somewhere in the world money and style exist together - just not in OKC for the most part. My guess is that it is based in the orgins of money in OKC - oil and government. Neither is known for style. The Gaylords have style and money, but they didn't build much in OKC.

[Pete]

At least that windowless section will be brick.

Dowell is merely matching what is on the other three facades, which makes sense.

[Steve]

I share Spartan's aspiration for downtown and his interest in design excellence, urban planning and preservation. But there is some context with this property that I think is important with this discussion. http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/20...or-half-empty/

[Doug Loudenback]

As discussed in this March 2007 blog post, today's Dowell Center was originally the Petroleum Building, circa 1926-1927, and, at that time at 18 stories, it was the city's tallest building:



Of course, that status would not last for long after the "Great Race" with its new 1931 neighbors to its south on Robinson ...



It had a serious fire in 1947:



The present day reshaping occurred in 1957 after its acquisition by Kerr-McGee and it has remained the same since that time.

About Dowell's plan to change the east wall of this building, Nick (Spartan) says,

The Dowell Center is perhaps the 2nd ugliest building downtown, behind the AT&T...thing. It does not need to ever be a bright color. It needs to be reclad totally.

I disagree with both of Nick's premises. The AT&T building is pretty magnificent, in my view.



But, if we're voting on the ugliest downtown buildings, my 1st place vote would have to go to the Southwestern Bell building built in 1957, now Oklahoma DEQ ...



Nick and others also opine about what the Dowell Center COULD be like, but that's rather like reinventing history. History is what it is and at least Dowell's proposal is consistent with the building's present configuration, to make its east side look like its other three sides. I find no foul with that proposition or proposal ... sure, it might be nice for Dowell (or someone else who might purchase the property, like Nick and/or Just The Facts ... a possible joint venture) to redo the building totally and spend a ****load of money doing so.



But that proposition is has no match in reality in any sense of the word, does it? On the other hand, perhaps I'm mistaken in giving no thought to a possible purchase of this property by Nick and JTF. I've been wrong before. Perhaps one or both are standing ready to purchase this property and bring forth their wondrous plans. Not.

Rick Dowell's proposal is not at all bad since the proposed changes are totally consistent with the building's present-day presentation, and there ain't no way that anyone (Dowell or anyone else) is about to revert the building to its original 1926-27 configuration, which, of course, would require undoing the changes made by Kerr-McGee in 1957.

[Steve]

Consider this: Dowell has done downtown a favor by clearing up title to the building, removing the asbestos, and getting the building back online. Dowell is now in his 60s and has no kids. So it's very feasible that in 20 years or so this building might sell to new owners (maybe one named Nick Roberts) who will still be able to embark upon the sort of vision Nick has.
While we're on the "ugly building" topic - who's interested in me posting a poll on the topic?

[kevinpate]

Just a guess on my part, but I think Spartan was referring to the windowless comm monolith.

[dmoor82]

To be fair, Nick has spent alot of time in Calgary and I would guess spending alot of time there would make most of us wish we had better developments!Calgary has about the same metro population as OKC but is GIANT in architecture and urbanism,I think Nick just want's way more for OKC and gets bummed out alot from what is developed here!

[Steve]

Having met Nick, he's very passionate about OKC and is constantly advocating for its' betterment.

[Just the facts]

So unless I am willing to buy the building I should just shut up. Sorry I said it would be nice if he could open up the elevator core instead of just having a large blank wall towering above the new amenities building. I guess I should just be happy with whetever we can get, no matter how bland it is. After all, beggers can't be choosers.

[Steve]

Nope, not saying that at all. I'm just adding some context to the conversation.

[Just the facts]

Nope, not saying that at all. I'm just adding some context to the conversation.

Sorry Steve, that comment wasn't directed at you.

But that proposition is has no match in reality in any sense of the word, does it? On the other hand, perhaps I'm mistaken in giving no thought to a possible purchase of this property by Nick and JTF. I've been wrong before. Perhaps one or both are standing ready to purchase this property and bring forth their wondrous plans. Not.

Also, can anyone show me the large blank sections on the other three walls? I mean, if he is going to make the walls match shouldn't they at least match?

[Steve]

We're cool. I'm in the middle here... again, if I had the money and I owned that building, I'd have all sorts of fun with it. Yes, I'd do something like what Nick showed. And I'd turn it into apartments with a cool restaurant and bookstore on the ground floor.

[Spartan]

Then explain why stylish architecture exist at all. Somewhere in the world money and style exist together - just not in OKC for the most part. My guess is that it is based in the orgins of money in OKC - oil and government. Neither is known for style. The Gaylords have style and money, but they didn't build much in OKC.

Kerry, keep in mind who we're talking about here. Rick Dowell. His sense of style isn't exactly typical even for OKC. I know he doesn't skimp on aesthetic, he just has a REALLY weird sense of style. In my opinion some of the stuff he's painstakingly done has been awesome. This is just one of those examples that you have to divorce from the person and impartially critique, and in that way, I hate this.

But I don't hate this as much as I hate SandRidge's demolitions or House of Bedlam or other BAD projects. This isn't a bad project, I just don't personally care for this facade. I just wanted to clarify.

[Spartan]

As discussed in this March 2007 blog post, today's Dowell Center was originally the Petroleum Building, circa 1926-1927, and, at that time at 18 stories, it was the city's tallest building:



Of course, that status would not last for long after the "Great Race" with its new 1931 neighbors to its south on Robinson ...



It had a serious fire in 1947:



The present day reshaping occurred in 1957 after its acquisition by Kerr-McGee and it has remained the same since that time.

About Dowell's plan to change the east wall of this building, Nick (Spartan) says,

The Dowell Center is perhaps the 2nd ugliest building downtown, behind the AT&T...thing. It does not need to ever be a bright color. It needs to be reclad totally.

I disagree with both of Nick's premises. The AT&T building is pretty magnificent, in my view.



But, if we're voting on the ugliest downtown buildings, my 1st place vote would have to go to the Southwestern Bell building built in 1957, now Oklahoma DEQ ...



Nick and others also opine about what the Dowell Center COULD be like, but that's rather like reinventing history. History is what it is and at least Dowell's proposal is consistent with the building's present configuration, to make its east side look like its other three sides. I find no foul with that proposition or proposal ... sure, it might be nice for Dowell (or someone else who might purchase the property, like Nick and/or Just The Facts ... a possible joint venture) to redo the building totally and spend a ****load of money doing so.



But that proposition is has no match in reality in any sense of the word, does it? On the other hand, perhaps I'm mistaken in giving no thought to a possible purchase of this property by Nick and JTF. I've been wrong before. Perhaps one or both are standing ready to purchase this property and bring forth their wondrous plans. Not.

Rick Dowell's proposal is not at all bad since the proposed changes are totally consistent with the building's present-day presentation, and there ain't no way that anyone (Dowell or anyone else) is about to revert the building to its original 1926-27 configuration, which, of course, would require undoing the changes made by Kerr-McGee in 1957.

Doug, you've been a development critic before. I'm not criticizing your logic or your points, because you're right I don't have that kind of money, but you didn't purchase the India Temple, either. I expect that you also live comfortably, and beyond that I don't know what your means are, but I don't imagine that you could have financially competed with SANDRIDGE either.

However, I was referring to this as downtown's ugliest behemoth:


I called it the "thing" to differentiate from the historic tower next door. The Dowell Center is also a demonstrably ugly building in its present state. You're right, it's better that some facade be added to the east side rather than practically no facade other than a blank edifice. I don't know the structural state of the Dowell Center, but I would make an educated guess that it is probably a structural necessity anyway. So basically what we are seeing is the bare minimum being done to maintain the structural integrity of the Dowell Center.

Personally, I'd rather it just fall down. If we can hemorrhage wonderful old buildings like the KerMac and the India Temple (Dowell's new facade is not as removable as IT's was), then at this point I guess we can lose eyesores like Dowell and the thing.

[Steve]

Spartan, what's your opinion of the following Dowell properties?
- The old Bob Moore Cadillac Building
- The old Fred Jones Body Shop building
- The old Fred Jones Lincoln dealership
- His new two-story building next to Legacy
- The old shopping center strip also known as the old OG&E storage building
- The little gas station
- The motel turned offices
- Dowell Center (which I think I know)