The Decline of Detroit - How To Prevent in OKC?

[Plutonic Panda]

No one single thing led to the decline of Detroit. Ignoring that shows an extreme bias or lack of knowledge on the issue - to quote you. The downturn of the auto industry definitely was a leading driver but so was sprawl and white flight to the burbs. There was no reinvestment into the core of Detroit, it is all in the burbs on the west and Northwest side of town. I'm not sure how much time you have spent up there, but I grew up in the region and know it quite well. Royal Oak, Troy, Rochester, Bloomfield, etc are all pretty upscale and no where comparable to the city of Detroit. Many tend to forget that the city itself can't compare to the burbs in terms of wealth.

If that wealth had stayed in the city of Detroit and the reinvestment took place there, they would have done much better.

Never ignored that and I agree with you, but you can't deny the fact that the economic depression with the bail-out of the cars was the biggest factor.

Looked how sprawled out Houston is and it was nearly recession proof during this last depression.

[Spartan]

Hang on Spartan, because Tinker has grown. One difference is in how its grown. A lot of the workforce there is becoming contract work rather than federal positions. So while the federal jobs numbers might look to have dropped, the number of warm bodies on base are not necessarily decreasing. Another side of that is the related workforce. There are the obvious ones like Boeing, but the lesser-known entities like Chromalloy (and countless others) make up a huge workforce as well. Just like the auto industry, there are a lot of side companies related to the main institution that are there because of the base and also offer a LOT of employment. That's not so much true in state government, but it does exist. Some companies heavily rely on state contracts for their business, and if that were to go away, those companies may not be able to survive. Of course those state jobs are going to be more reliable than federal in terms of the potential for Tinker to be closed one day...but the capital isn't going to close LOL.

The oil bust and savings and loan crash shows OKC how volatile our world was...and still is. Like Spartan said, if energy went bust again, OKC would have a hard time. As he also says, we've diversified a lot since then (with the crashes in mind), but we're still an energy dominated state. Just like I mentioned above, if Devon and Chesapeake went caput tomorrow, OKC (and the state) wouldn't just lose 10K office jobs, we'd lose 100K in all the drill companies, parts, transport, etc. that goes along with them. We would for sure crash to a significant extent. But without having a compounded banking crisis, I think OKC would stand a better chance of not falling into a 20 year slump like we did before.

In relation to Detroit, you also have to consider the White Flight to the suburbs, and the corruption in the city government. With a housing market so flooded, abandoning your home was more economically beneficial than anything else...how crazy is that!?! Even places like Wichita that saw a huge number of lost jobs over the last 15 years from aerospace hasn't seen that kind of craziness. Unfortunately, the city government spend decades operating in an us vs. them white/black world rather than focusing on setting up a city that would survive. Remember, this has been going on for decades...it's not a new problem for them and it's only recently become such national attention. Countless pop culture references can be found over the last 30 years on the fall (and attempted rebirth) of DTW. OKC managed to avoid a lot of the racial tension that DTW saw. Throw the UAW in the mix there, and you've got a big mess. Their "negotiating" simply forced automakers to build elsewhere and continue to downsize because it didn't make economic sense to produce vehicles in MI. Even in OKC where we were building the still-sold Trailblazer and Malibu, we lost a plant! That bankruptcy was the best thing that ever happened to GM to free them from the insanity the UAW created. I say all that simply to say that Detroit is a long and complex issue. There are so many factors in the mix there that lead to the current state. My heart tells me the citizens of OKC are smarter than that and wouldn't let things fall so badly.

I appreciate this post, but can I get the cliff notes version? It looks fairly agreeable.

[Spartan]

Wrong.

Have you been to Detroit and disagree with my assessment that it's very sprawled, with wealth existing in the suburban reaches?

[RadicalModerate]

Never ignored that and I agree with you, but you can't deny the fact that the economic depression with the bail-out of the cars was the biggest factor.

Looked how sprawled out Houston is and it was nearly recession proof during this last depression.

No disrespect, intended, young Voyager . . .
Yet . . . Have you ever actually been to Detroit?
(other than in better dreams of finer cars?)

And Houston is hot, humid and unwelcoming,
No matter how you slice it.
Yet it is The Gateway to Galveston . . .
Via Automobile . . .
And so it goes . . . =)

[venture]

Not having a completely corrupt government with many prominent officials getting indicted every few years might have helped Detroit as well. People fled a lot of things when leaving Detroit whether it was to the burbs or the Sun Belt. The government there ignored that fact for many, many decades.

Totally agree...there were multiple things that brought that city to its knees, not just one thing. Like you also said - this happened over a long period of time.

Never ignored that and I agree with you, but you can't deny the fact that the economic depression with the bail-out of the cars was the biggest factor.

Looked how sprawled out Houston is and it was nearly recession proof during this last depression.

You are thinking way to short term as the decline has been in the making for decades, but you are still a child so I'll give you a pass on that.

You are still too focused on just sprawl. Comparing Detroit to Houston in the last recession - is what I believe you meant to say - can't really be a serious comment. You are talking about the oil mecca of the US to the auto capital. When oil prices go up...that doesn't exactly help Detroit. You can't compare the two.

[Jeepnokc]

Yes. We (Oklahoma county) made a huge investment to buy back a building that we paid gm to build.(through incentives and tax breaks) Now the work that is performed there is paid for by our tax dollars. So gm got paid twice by us and we get paid 1 dollar to pay the federal government to build airplanes for war. Pretty clever

And then the gov't pays millions back in salaries to our local citizens that would have gone elsewhere. Additionally, it has attracted further private expansion and salaries. Seems pretty darn clever to me!

[ylouder]

So the federal government says you and I as citizens owe 17 trillion dollars in debt but they will pay us salary out of that debt that you and I will have to pay back? Clever.

why don't we write each other checks for 1 million dollars and we will both be able to spend it and pay each other back.

better idea. I'm going to get a credit card and buy 50k worth of stuff. When the bill comes due I'm going to get another credit card and pay the old one off and ask for a higher limit. This time they give me 100k limit so I pay off first one and go out and spend the other 50k on stuff. Bill is due, I'm going to get my limit raised to 150k this time so I can pay this debt off and have 50k walking around money...17 trillion. But look at the jobs?

[Jeepnokc]

So the federal government says you and I as citizens owe 17 trillion dollars in debt but they will pay us salary out of that debt that you and I will have to pay back? Clever.

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Would you rather it go to some other community. The strength and diversity of the work that Tinker does is one of the reasons it has avoided closure. What say ye about the private development? Would all the retail and shops be along 29th if Tinker closed? The new apartments ion I240 near the plant? The Boeing jobs? None of this is government money. Seems kind of clever to invest in our future and growth and to ensure the stability of our air base. I think Detroit would be jumping on any chance to get a federal agency into one of their empty plants.

[ylouder]

Your confusing debt for progress. Just because you buy 17 trillion dollars on a credit card doesn't make me rich. It makes me Detroit when the bills come due.

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[Just the facts]

So the federal government says you and I as citizens owe 17 trillion dollars in debt but they will pay us salary out of that debt that you and I will have to pay back? Clever.

why don't we write each other checks for 1 million dollars and we will both be able to spend it and pay each other back.

better idea. I'm going to get a credit card and buy 50k worth of stuff. When the bill comes due I'm going to get another credit card and pay the old one off and ask for a higher limit. This time they give me 100k limit so I pay off first one and go out and spend the other 50k on stuff. Bill is due, I'm going to get my limit raised to 150k this time so I can pay this debt off and have 50k walking around money...17 trillion. But look at the jobs?

You just described the Federal Reserve System and fractional reserve banking.

[ylouder]

Boeings okc jobs are here because DOD contracts. The company has completely different companies for commercial and defense sides. Google it.

If you don't understand what a customer is than I can't help you.

[Just the facts]

Your confusing debt for progress. Just because you buy 17 trillion dollars on a credit card doesn't make me rich. It makes me Detroit when the bills come due.

A little side-bar. If you haven't done it already check out the documentary Surviving Progress.

[Jeepnokc]

Boeings okc jobs are here because DOD contracts. The company has completely different companies for commercial and defense sides. Google it.

If you don't understand what a customer is than I can't help you.

However, let's look at how the old GM plant is helping bring jobs and keep jobs here:

Oklahoma City (Tinker AFB)

Oklahoma is one of the top 10 states in traditional aerospace occupation employment in the nation. Leading the way in terms of facilities and jobs is Oklahoma City-based Tinker Air Force Base -- the largest group of civilian Air Force personnel in the U.S., and Oklahoma's largest single-site employer with an annual statewide economic impact of close to $4 billion. Tinker Air Force Base is a major industrial complex surrounded by a diverse set of aerospace companies such as Boeing, L3, Northrup Grumman and Pratt Whitney, both on base and in Oklahoma City.

The booming growth of this cluster is not just a trend -- foundations are in place to ensure its success. The dynamic, trusting relationship between local leadership in Oklahoma City and the County is unmatched -- leaders have a combined strategy that offers clients a one-stop shop and quick turnaround on complex projects. In 2005, when General Motors announced plans to close its $500 million Oklahoma City plant, the Greater Oklahoma City Chamber, Oklahoma County, the State of Oklahoma, the Department of Defense, GM and Tinker Air Force Base joined forces to quickly repurpose the plant through a $54 million bond election. Today, Tinker Aerospace Complex (TAC) is considered the most advanced Air Force aviation and aerospace manufacturing production facility in the world, thanks to a strong community/Air Force relationship. Southern Business & Development > Features > Winter 2012 > Ten Successful Aviation and Aerospace Clusters

Over the past year, families have been moving into the area to pick up work at the Boeing plant in OKC and other jobs at Tinker. As the federal government threatens budget cuts and tax increases, having Boeing relocate its workers to Tinker will continue to provide growth. State Representative Tom Cole hopes that Congress and the president will come to an agreement and provide a budgetary certainty as well as increase Tinker’s role in the community.

“The transfer of Boeing workers to Oklahoma City is a positive sign that affirms Tinker’s essential role,” Cole said. “Boeing, along with other private sector businesses that support the Tinker mission, will continue to balance business opportunities with the risk and uncertainty of the volatile budget situation.”
- See more at: News | Moore Monthly


It's pretty simple. Restructuring the old GM plant into the Tinker Aerospace Complex strengthens Tinker and our place as a aerospace powerhouse location. This attracts more aerospace companies which brings more jobs and more people. More people requires more housing and more service related companies for people to use their new purchasing power which increases tax revenues. Also, this has nothing to do with the national debt as the county purchased the plant with bond money and then leased it to Tinker so they could avoid having to spend a bunch of money replacing or renovating old maintenance facilities on base. Thus, this actually saved federal money. The increased tax revenues will pay back the bond money.

If you don't understand basic economy...I can't help you

[Just the facts]

The increased tax revenues will pay back the bond money.

This never works. If it did every city in America would be flush with cash, but not a single one is.

[SoonerDave]

Would you rather it go to some other community. The strength and diversity of the work that Tinker does is one of the reasons it has avoided closure. What say ye about the private development? Would all the retail and shops be along 29th if Tinker closed? The new apartments ion I240 near the plant? The Boeing jobs? None of this is government money. Seems kind of clever to invest in our future and growth and to ensure the stability of our air base. I think Detroit would be jumping on any chance to get a federal agency into one of their empty plants.

Um, those are ALL "government money" (DOD) jobs.

[ylouder]

Um, those are ALL "government money" (DOD) jobs.

You think he would understand after reading what he posted.

For the record I have worked at tinker as a contractor my first 2 years out of undergrad. Before i started I thought because I worked for a large name contractor that I was somehow above those government DOD employees. Huge wakeup call when I found out a contractor worked for them, they were our customers - they paid us. We reported to them and if Congress passed a budget that was smaller it affected us because there was less money for what ever contract we were on at the time. The buildings Boeing built here, are for Contract work. It may be multiple year contract work and they may have hopes of winning future contracts. But it's not indefinite, just look at the whole tanker fiasco over last 10 years.

[Spartan]

Herein lies the problem with outsiders discussing Detroit's problems.

[mugofbeer]

This never works. If it did every city in America would be flush with cash, but not a single one is.

JTF, are you kidding us? This is a pure investment. If it never works then no one has ever benefitted from investing their money. Just because it is government money doesn't change.the concept of investment. I think thats where your real rub is. You just dont think this is a valid function of government. Do I want government in the business of investment at all levels? No! Ive seen many community industrial authorities make investments that were clearly done by people who had no idea what they were doing.

As for GM, we might still have the plant if the city hadn't been forced to renig on property tax abatements. As it is,, the current arrangement is working out well. This was a well conceived investment that has clearly been beneficial.

[Plutonic Panda]

Have you been to Detroit and disagree with my assessment that it's very sprawled, with wealth existing in the suburban reaches?

I've never been to Detroit, but have seen quite a bit about it. Not sure how sprawled it is though, but surely it can't be worse than Atlanta, Houston, Jacksonville, OKC, or any other sprawled out cities.

[Plutonic Panda]

No disrespect, intended, young Voyager . . .
Yet . . . Have you ever actually been to Detroit?
(other than in better dreams of finer cars?)

And Houston is hot, humid and unwelcoming,
No matter how you slice it.
Yet it is The Gateway to Galveston . . .
Via Automobile . . .
And so it goes . . . =)

I haven't been to Detroit honestly.

[Plutonic Panda]

You are thinking way to short term as the decline has been in the making for decades, but you are still a child so I'll give you a pass on that.

You are still too focused on just sprawl. Comparing Detroit to Houston in the last recession - is what I believe you meant to say - can't really be a serious comment. You are talking about the oil mecca of the US to the auto capital. When oil prices go up...that doesn't exactly help Detroit. You can't compare the two.

Well, what about Atlanta? ATL is still pretty good and I'm not sure how affected they were by the recession. I just don't see how sprawl led to Detroit's downfall.

[soonergooner]

Wife born and raised in Detroit. I have long been interested in urban decay/regeneration and was looking forward to observing poster child. We went up for a wedding. Totally shocked by what I saw. Reminded me of Edmond, at least the areas we were in. Only had a few days, so I couldn't venture to the downtown areas that clearly borne the brunt of decay. Seems the suburbs are getting along just fine. Also, whenever we saw a car plant, they seem to be well away from cities.

[soonergooner]

States ranked by dependence to federal $:

States Most & Least Dependent on the Federal Government | WalletHub®

[Spartan]

Wife born and raised in Detroit. I have long been interested in urban decay/regeneration and was looking forward to observing poster child. We went up for a wedding. Totally shocked by what I saw. Reminded me of Edmond, at least the areas we were in. Only had a few days, so I couldn't venture to the downtown areas that clearly borne the brunt of decay. Seems the suburbs are getting along just fine. Also, whenever we saw a car plant, they seem to be well away from cities.

This. I would say Detroit sprawl is way worse than any of you fathom.

[bombermwc]

The sprawl is actually a major factor in the decline, but not the way OKC-ers think of sprawl. Sprawl in Detroit was because of White Flight. The suburbs are mostly doing just fine, its only DTW proper that is in such a terrible state. I know my previous post was a little long, but it does have some details on the subject. There have been countless good documentaries and reports done about DTW's issues, and from before it became a mainstream media story. I don't know the exact one, but there was an excellent informative piece broadcast on OETA last year that just preceded an election there. It focused quite a bit on how the UAW is intrinsically linked to the situation as well. As others have mentioned, you'll notice that the plants that survived are mostly outside of the metro.

Detropia is an excellent piece. I would encourage everyone to take a look.
Detropia - PBS Independent Lens/