Western Avenue District

[Just the facts]

All I can say Rover is go to the library and read the book.

[Rover]

All I can say is use some common sense.

[Just the facts]

All I can say is use some common sense.

The author (a professional real estate developer) took a hundred pages to explain the influence government holds on development and you want me to explain it to you in a paragraph? If OKC isn't influencing development what does the planning department do all day? The reality, traditional town and neighborhood development has been made illegal. Imagine if CVS wanted to open a store in Deep Duece and fully expects that most of their customers are within walking distance of the store, do you think they would be allowed to build without providing any parking?

[Rover]

Of course there is influence. But to imply that everyone in the suburbs prefers to live there because the city influenced them too is just simply silly. To say that Nichols Hills exists because people with money only want big houses and yards because the government subsidized roads and highways 50 years ago is pretty naive. Some people like being in houses with yards and no neighbors right across the wall or above their ceiling.

Western is not spread out based on subsidies.

But the topic is that Western has great possibilities to organically grow into an interesting venue...and it does. Just don't look for Western south of Wilshire down to 36th or so to just dry up or re-locate there. It will have to grow from seeds, not be transplanted.

[Just the facts]

You would be surprised.

http://cybermars.mls.lib.ok.us/marsi...E=SimpleSearch

Shelf Number: 307.760973 D812s

I found this quote to be a very interesting insight.

During the height of automania, a zoologist observed that in animal herds excessive mobility was a sure sign of distress and asked whether this might not be true of his fellow human beings. Perhaps it was distress... but what historian can list all the causes that led twentieth-century man to race from highway to byway, tunnel to bridge? Suffice to say that he seemed to be constantly going from where he didn't want to be to where he didn't want to stay. - Percival Goodman, Communication (1960)

Do you ever wonder why people move on average every 6 years?

[Rover]

What in the world does that have to do with anything regarding urban development? Okay, herds of animals under stress move. And of course then, people = herds of animals. And then you are implying the source of the stress IS the mobility? Are you possibly saying people move around in the suburbs because the government creates stress by providing streets? Or that there is no stress in high density urban environments? Or that people in apartments move less than people in single family housing? Or that lawns cause stress? Or that living in Btown or shopping on lower Western is more stress free than living in Nichols Hills and shopping at Whole Foods? Or even that this writer has ANY credibility on the topic of how cities develop and the roll of government in altering people's natural desires?

Boy, I can tell you are not in either research or marketing. The argument is really grasping at straws.

[Just the facts]

Are you possibly saying people move around in the suburbs because the government creates stress by providing streets?

How many time have you seen two pedestrians flip each other off? Are police cracking down on sidewalk rage or aggressive walking? When is the last time you saw a 3 pedestrian pile-up? Are there overhead signs telling walkers which sidewalks to avoid? How about Weather and Walking on the 6's from the local New/Weather/Traffic radio station?

[Rover]

Wow. Now this thread is officially bizarre. Can we get back to talking about Western instead of the stress level of monkeys?

[Urban Pioneer]

yes. The free market has completely disappeared. The strangest part is that my life seems exactly the same and i still make free market choices everyday. The sky is falling!

lol

[ljbab728]

I've said this before, but as far as vibrant, dense, walkable, organic urban entertainment districts go, Tulsa has had an edge for a long time, but OKC has some nice potential... This is how I'd rank them using the previous adjectives (not personal preference) as criteria:

1. Brookside (Tulsa)
2. Campus Corner (Norman)
3. Bricktown (OKC)
4. Cherry Street (Tulsa)
5. Western (OKC)
6. Blue Dome (Tulsa)
7. The Strip (Stillwater)
8. Brady (Tulsa)
9. Plaza Court (OKC)
10. Plaza District (OKC)
11. Paseo (OKC)
12. Main Street (Norman)
13. Automobile Alley (including 9th Street) (OKC)
14. Film Row (OKC)
15. Deep Deuce (OKC)

Some of these are fledgling and probably shouldn't be on the list, but they may grow in the future. What does everyone think? Am I leaving any districts off? Looking at the list, OKC's problem seems to be that it has too many districts for them to really grow.

An area that shouldn't be on the list now but certainly has the potential is Capitol Hill.

[foodiefan]

How many time have you seen two pedestrians flip each other off? Are police cracking down on sidewalk rage or aggressive walking? When is the last time you saw a 3 pedestrian pile-up? Are there overhead signs telling walkers which sidewalks to avoid? How about Weather and Walking on the 6's from the local New/Weather/Traffic radio station?

Well. . .for at least a couple of these (i.e. # 1 and # 3). . .try NYC, Chicago. . . any major/metro/urban area!! Granted, the results normally aren't as extreme as they can be in an automobile, but the "stress" is there nontheless.

[Just the facts]

Well. . .for at least a couple of these (i.e. # 1 and # 3). . .try NYC, Chicago. . . any major/metro/urban area!! Granted, the results normally aren't as extreme as they can be in an automobile, but the "stress" is there nontheless.

Yes, but that stress isn't caused by the walking.

[Rover]

Yes, but that stress isn't caused by the walking.

No, it is caused by running.....from the muggers and from dodging bullets. LOL

It is easy to idealize but there are issues in every neighborhood...urban or suburban. Thankfully, we have choices of where we want to live, shop, worship and get educated.

[foodiefan]

No, it is caused by running.....from the muggers and from dodging bullets. LOL

Yeah. . .a lot worse than being flipped off!! Plus. . .although it's been a few years. . . I remember my cousins in NYC telling me not to wear "real" neckwear jewelry on the streets of NYC. . .some folks were into doing the "snatch and grab".

[Just the facts]

More children are killed every year in car accidents. The most dangerous place for a child is a culdesac, which is ironic since most parents move there thinking it safer for children.

[Rover]

More children are killed every year in car accidents. The most dangerous place for a child is a culdesac, which is ironic since most parents move there thinking it safer for children.

Your preoccupation and hatred of suburban life is noted. You believe suburbs are evil. Something really traumatic must have happened to you in a suburb. Maybe you were forced to mow a lawn against your will. Or the quiet slowly drove you crazy. Perhaps you felt lonely in the extra space in the house. Maybe you weren't accepted in the country club of your choice. Or you could never make a putt. Maybe you ran out of gas (you definitely have car issues). Oooohhhh, the dread of it all. If the government hadn't forced all the robots to the suburbs what a utopian society we would have all living within 5 feet of each other. Hey, I have an idea for you...you should move to Shanghai. You would absolutely love it there. Lots of people in close proximity...city built up not out...lots of urban planning.

[Just the facts]

It isn't about size - it is about community. Here is something to think about. Read it if you want to.

THE VICTIMS OF SPRAWL
CUL-DE-SAC KIDS; SOCCER MOMS; BORED TEENAGERS;
STRANDED ELDERLY; WEARY COMMUTERS;
BANKRUPT MUNICIPALITIES; THE IMMOBILE POOR

Surplus wealth enables people to persist in building wasteful, inadequate communities and then compensate for the communities' failings by buying private vehicles and driving all over the metropolitan area in search of what ought to be available close to home.
-PHILIP LANGDON, A BETTER PLAGE TO LIVE (1994)

Aside from the real estate developer, who else is victimized by suburban sprawl? To some degree, almost everyone is. Most obvious are the 8o million Americans who are either too young, too old, or too poor to drive. But it doesn't stop there. Upon investigation, it is difficult to identify a segment of the population that does not suffer in some way from the lifestyle imposed by contemporary suburban development.

CUL-DE-SAC KIDS

Perhaps most worrisome is the situation facing the children of suburbia. In one of the great ironies of our era, the cul-de-sac suburbs, originally conceived as youth's great playground, are proving to be less than ideal for America's young.

That suburban life may be bad for children comes as a surprise. After all, most families move to the suburb’s precisely because they think it will be "good or the children." What do they mean by that? Better suburban schools—a phenomenon peculiar to the United States—are good for children. Big, safe, grassy fields to play on are also good for them. What is not so good for children, however, is the complete loss of autonomy they suffer in suburbia. In this environment where all activities are segregated and distances are measured on the odometer, a child's personal mobility extends no farther than the edge of the subdivision. Even the local softball field often exists beyond the child's independent reach.

The result is a new phenomenon: the 'cul-de-sac kid," the child who lives as a prisoner of a thoroughly safe and unchallenging environment. While this state of affairs may be acceptable, even desirable, through about age five, what of the next ten or twelve years? Dependent always on some adult to drive them around, children and adolescents are unable to practice at becoming adults. They cannot run so simple a household errand as picking up a carton of milk. They cannot bicycle to the toy store and spend their money on their own. They cannot drop in on their mother at work. Most cannot walk to school. Even pickup baseball games are a thing of the past, with parents now required to arrange car-pooling with near military precision, to transport the children at the appointed times.

Children are frozen in a form of infancy, utterly dependent on others, bereft of the ability to introduce variety into their own lives, robbed of the opportunity to make choices and exercise judgment. Typical suburban parents give their children an allowance, in order to empower them and encourage independence. "Feel free to spend it any way you like," they say. The child then says, "Thanks, Mom. When can you drive me to the mall?"

I guess my disdane for suburban sprawl is a bit like getting x-rays. An individual occurance of radiation isn't bad but getting a steady dose for 20 years is another story.

[Skyline]

Just the Facts,,,

What urban mecca do you live in?

I am thinking you live in suburbia Jax - Florida?

[Just the facts]

Just the Facts,,,

What urban mecca do you live in?

I am thinking you live in suburbia Jax - Florida?

LOL - I am trapped in suburbia like everyone else. I lived two years in Healdton, OK and it was probably the most walkable community I have ever lived in and it is hardly an urban mecca. I don't know why people associate walkability with urban.

[lasomeday]

I've said this before, but as far as vibrant, dense, walkable, organic urban entertainment districts go, Tulsa has had an edge for a long time, but OKC has some nice potential... This is how I'd rank them using the previous adjectives (not personal preference) as criteria:

1. Brookside (Tulsa)
2. Campus Corner (Norman)
3. Bricktown (OKC)
4. Cherry Street (Tulsa)
5. Western (OKC)
6. Blue Dome (Tulsa)
7. The Strip (Stillwater)
8. Brady (Tulsa)
9. Plaza Court (OKC)
10. Plaza District (OKC)
11. Paseo (OKC)
12. Main Street (Norman)
13. Automobile Alley (including 9th Street) (OKC)
14. Film Row (OKC)
15. Deep Deuce (OKC)

Some of these are fledgling and probably shouldn't be on the list, but they may grow in the future. What does everyone think? Am I leaving any districts off? Looking at the list, OKC's problem seems to be that it has too many districts for them to really grow.

Actually Enid's town square has more going on than Film Row and Deep Deuce. Enid has a downtown baseball field, quaint restaurants, a few bars, they are working on adding to the convention center (downtown), they have an opera house, and are working on getting a hotel downtown.

Also downtown Bartlesville is doing pretty well. It isn't top 15 worthy, but making huge strides.

23rd Street in OKC has a chance to move up the list quickly with many of the buildings being up for sale.

[dankrutka]

Yeah. I definitely am not too familiar with Enid or Bartlesville, but it's good to hear. 23rd street should probably be just above Film Row at this point with the potential to move up quick...

[Skyline]

LOL - I am trapped in suburbia like everyone else. I lived two years in Healdton, OK and it was probably the most walkable community I have ever lived in and it is hardly an urban mecca. I don't know why people associate walkability with urban.

Ok.

Well my point in starting this topic was because I was visiting the Western Ave district and while waling from one point to the other, I found it rather difficult. Next time you are in Okc you should visit this area and see for yourself.

I have since found out that this area is waiting on 2007 bonds before new sidewalks can be added. I really hope that this area receives more than only the sidewalks. I would like this area between 36th and 50th to benefit from an extensive makeover, with sidewalks, crosswalks, bicycle lanes, parallel parking, and extra wide patios for the businesses.

I find it a little odd that other Okc areas have received the items mentioned above and do not have nearly the amount of private investments already in place along Western Ave.

[Just the facts]

Ok.

Well my point in starting this topic was because I was visiting the Western Ave district and while waling from one point to the other, I found it rather difficult. Next time you are in Okc you should visit this area and see for yourself.

I have since found out that this area is waiting on 2007 bonds before new sidewalks can be added. I really hope that this area receives more than only the sidewalks. I would like this area between 36th and 50th to benefit from an extensive makeover, with sidewalks, crosswalks, bicycle lanes, parallel parking, and extra wide patios for the businesses.

I find it a little odd that other Okc areas have received the items mentioned above and do not have nearly the amount of private investments already in place along Western Ave.

I will be in town over Thanksgiving and I hope to atleast drive by the area we have been talking about. I agree that this area has great potential. I am still in negotiations with the wife on returning to OKC and opening a business and this area intrigues me for one of my ideas, but I don't want to have to build a parking lot. I want 95% of my customers to walk/bike/segway to me. The other 5% can park on the street.

[USG'60]

Call a party when you get here.

[Rover]

LOL - I am trapped in suburbia like everyone else. I lived two years in Healdton, OK and it was probably the most walkable community I have ever lived in and it is hardly an urban mecca. I don't know why people associate walkability with urban.

Just curious, so I understand your perspective, what is the largest and most urban city you have lived in, and did you live in a true high density part of the city or in the suburbs? You must not live in OKC now, so where do you live now?