Oklahoma Teacher Shortage

[Just the facts]

Do you know of any first world county where this is the practice?

Japan follows a similar program. Not sure about other countries.

[SouthsideSooner]

Japan follows a similar program. Not sure about other countries.

That isn't true. the vast majority of students in Japan go to public schools and as of 2010, public high schools are tuition free...

[Laramie]

Teachers do get fired in OKCPS……..It’s not often enough but if an principle is willing to put in the long hard work that is required, a teacher can be fired…. The problem is that very few principles are willing to do this work that is necessary to get rid of bad teachers because the system that was agreed to in negotiations is flawed.

A principal has to put a non tenured/tenured teacher on a plan of improvement. The maximum teacher load any principal can monitor effectively is 2 to 3 (tenured and non tenured) teachers. There are loads of paper work (documentation) needed to support bringing a teacher before the board for termination with strict timelines & benchmarks.

Unions don't always take the teacher's side; they often work with the administration. Sometimes it's better to counsel the ineffective teacher into resignation.

Simple solution, eliminate public schools after 6th grade and make secondary education mandatory. If parents don't pay then garnish tax refunds, paychecks, and social benefits.

Or, stop building so many new schools and abandoning old ones. If people want to move to the open prairie fine, but schools shouldn't follow them out there.

Schools follow the people who reside in the communities that support the tax structure to fund those expanding & new districts.

The older areas have a populous that have long graduated their children; they have no interest in increased property taxes or millage to fund those structures.

[Dubya61]

Simple solution, eliminate public schools after 6th grade and make secondary education mandatory. If parents don't pay then garnish tax refunds, paychecks, and social benefits.

Or, stop building so many new schools and abandoning old ones. If people want to move to the open prairie fine, but schools shouldn't follow them out there.

Go home, JTF. You're drunk.
Yes, this would solve the problem. In that same vein, we could additional attempt to solve sprawl by making it mandatory to have a certain person-per-square-feet law on your property. Any homeowners who don't comply would pay a low-density-luxury-tax. If they don't pay, then garnish tax refunds, paychecks, and social benefits.

[SoonerDave]

Go home, JTF. You're drunk.
Yes, this would solve the problem. In that same vein, we could additional attempt to solve sprawl by making it mandatory to have a certain person-per-square-feet law on your property. Any homeowners who don't comply would pay a low-density-luxury-tax. If they don't pay, then garnish tax refunds, paychecks, and social benefits.

The sad thing is, Dubya, that a great many "progressives" would like nothing more than to do exactly that.

[SoonerDave]

And one more thought...amid all this education discussion, I saw an interview on Ch 9 with our new education superintendent. One of the first questions she was asked was about class size, and whether getting average size down to 20 was an acheivable goal.

Her response? "No, I don't see that as realistic..."

Was a great way to kick off the week for my wife. Hearkened me back to the HB 1017 fiasco from, what, 20+ years ago that was supposed to fix everything and didn't, and one of its targets was class sizes, which have been largely torpedoed out of existence.

* sigh *

[Just the facts]

If people are moving to areas because of the quality schools, then stop building new schools and make the existing ones quality, We then save millions and millions and millions on construction and land acqusition.

[SoonerDave]

If people are moving to areas because of the quality schools, then stop building new schools and make the existing ones quality, We then save millions and millions and millions on construction and land acqusition.

But you've got to know it isn't that simple, Kerry. Sometimes you come across an "existing" school that's 40, 50, or more years old and find a facility that's in such poor condition that it isn't financially responsible to rehabilitate it. If it costs you more to rehab an existing structure (and that often includes inane things like plumbing, heating, cooling, electrical, and ADA compliance, and in latter-day Oklahoma, safe rooms) than to plow and rebuild, it's poor stewardship of public money to rehab merely for the sake of rehabbing. If you throw (arbitrary number) $10 million at a 50-year-old building, guess what; you end the day with a 50-year-old building that's had a nice facelift, but it's still a 50-year-old building. If you throw that same $10M into a pot for a brand new building that'll last 50 *more* years, isn't that drastically more prudent fiscally?

Mind you, it's not a one-size-fits-all. Study it. Maybe it's smart to rehab one building, but not another. But we just can't say one way is always the best way.

[gopokes88]

I don't know how to fix it but I do think OKC should unify the entire metro into one system.

In Albuquerque the entire city (600,000) is under Albuquerque Public Schools it has 80,000+ students in it. Granted it has some bureaucratic nightmares (they once lost $16,000,000, they still have no idea where it is.) but the funding is great. Because it is under one system the million dollar homes feed into the same system as the ones in the ghetto. The worst APS high schools receive the same funding as the wealthy neighborhoods. Now they are still bad schools with bad kids in them. Nothing will ever change the fact that the worse your home life, the less likely you'll perform well in school, but does give troubled kids access to the top of the line facilities and teachers. It was an eye opener to see how bad the facilities are in OKC. It helps their odds, it doesn't fix it but it does help.

[dankrutka]

I know a lot of teachers in Kansas from working in the state and they're just demoralized: Why teachers can?t hotfoot it out of Kansas fast enough - The Washington Post

[Midtowner]

The most obvious answer here--and the most responsible answer here is to undo the gift to the oil and gas companies last year and hike the gross production tax up to 7% or higher. We don't need to incentivize oil and gas companies to drill. They will do so regardless of incentive. We also need to pay a higher income tax. Oklahomans at the top of the income brackets could stand to pay a little more so that we can build an education infrastructure to serve all Oklahomans. This talk of hacking and slashing our way to a "21st century" concept is all fun, but the problem is simple here--money. If you want better teachers, you have to pay better teachers. Our administrators are also very underpaid compared to surrounding states. Our higher ed faculties are also not nearly as well compensated as they would be in other states. If we want a great education system, money talks, BS walks.

[jerrywall]

The most obvious answer here--and the most responsible answer here is to undo the gift to the oil and gas companies last year and hike the gross production tax up to 7% or higher. We don't need to incentivize oil and gas companies to drill. They will do so regardless of incentive. We also need to pay a higher income tax. Oklahomans at the top of the income brackets could stand to pay a little more so that we can build an education infrastructure to serve all Oklahomans. This talk of hacking and slashing our way to a "21st century" concept is all fun, but the problem is simple here--money. If you want better teachers, you have to pay better teachers. Our administrators are also very underpaid compared to surrounding states. Our higher ed faculties are also not nearly as well compensated as they would be in other states. If we want a great education system, money talks, BS walks.

I don't necessarily agree with everything you say, but in general, yes. To fix education funding, we have to do one or both of two things. Increase revenues, or decrease costs. Education represents the majority of our state budget as it is. It's only going to be fixed by probably a combination of those two plans. More money is great, but also increase efficiency and cut costs at the same time. How we increase revenue is where politics come in. Some will say by new businesses and economic growth, and other will say by new taxes. Regardless of revenue streams, we do need to make sure the money is being spend efficiently.

[Midtowner]

To address some of the solutions proposed here...

Re: the lottery: If you're trying to obtain more funds for education, it is dumb policy to shut off any funding source. The lottery provides net dollars to education. I suspect this objection is more a religious objection to gambling in a thinly cloaked veil of a policy argument. The lottery amendment came with a provision which is really unenforceable that the legislature would not decrease overall funding to compensate for lottery income... which the legislature has since done. The fact that we're expecting the education system to function with a lot less money than they had 10 years ago with a lot more students is not a realistic approach. The problem is money, period. No approach cutting a penny of funding should be considered.

Re consolidation, it's a red herring and probably a politically impossible problem to solve. Sometimes the problem is not enough money and the answer is to throw money at the problem.

[jerrywall]

To address some of the solutions proposed here...

Re: the lottery: If you're trying to obtain more funds for education, it is dumb policy to shut off any funding source. The lottery provides net dollars to education. I suspect this objection is more a religious objection to gambling in a thinly cloaked veil of a policy argument. The lottery amendment came with a provision which is really unenforceable that the legislature would not decrease overall funding to compensate for lottery income... which the legislature has since done. The fact that we're expecting the education system to function with a lot less money than they had 10 years ago with a lot more students is not a realistic approach. The problem is money, period. No approach cutting a penny of funding should be considered.

Re consolidation, it's a red herring and probably a politically impossible problem to solve. Sometimes the problem is not enough money and the answer is to throw money at the problem.

Meh. I agree broadly. Revenue is revenue, and let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater. The lottery, is, even if it didn't live up to the promise, and a net revenue positive. My question is, is it taking money form those that can least afford it? Because, like I mentioned, it generates about 1% of our education budget. How much do families personal assets and income affect education. How well their kids eat, if they have internet at home, etc. Is the lottery pulling away from those areas? I've heard it referred to as a tax on the poor and or the stupid. Is this the case?

That being said, it's worth pointing out that education funding has been increasing. The biggest drop was in 2008-2009 when the economy crashed. We've grown since then (albeit not enough). If we see another crash we'll see another drop, so we should be doing two things. Building in additional revenues where possible, and being more efficient and cutting costs if we can. Because I expect a crash is coming, if for no other reason than oil prices.

[dankrutka]

One way to decrease costs is textbooks. In this day and age physical textbooks aren't needed and they're super expensive. There are tons of solutions that would hopefully lead to more creative teaching anyway. Also, all classes really can be primarily paperless too.

However, good luck with that. Like most of America, the textbook companies have bought and paid for all the people they need to ensure their continued financial success.

[jerrywall]

One way to decrease costs is textbooks. In this day and age physical textbooks aren't needed and they're super expensive. There are tons of solutions that would hopefully lead to more creative teaching anyway. Also, all classes really can be primarily paperless too.

However, good luck with that. Like most of America, the textbook companies have bought and paid for all the people they need to ensure their continued financial success.

I'm also a fan of moving kids to digital text books and home work but from what I've seen it doesn't save the money it could, since even the digital cost per text book is the same. The only savings is that the teacher isn't buying printer paper (or making the parents provide it), and so the school budget doesn't approve.`\

FYI - Here was my son's school supply list last year... notice the "general" section. I personally don't mind providing, but considering that Edmond residents have approved every single school bond that's been held, I've got to wonder why we have to subsidies the school supplies.

Two 1" 3-ring binders
• Notebook paper (filler paper)
• Two sets of 6-subject dividers
• TI Scientific Multiview 30XS
Calculator (preferred model)
• Geometry Students: 1
Compass
Science and English:
• Four spiral notebooks (2 for
each subject), 70-pages or
more
• Pencils
• Red pens
• Blue or black pens
• Graph paper
• 1 copy of Chasing Lincoln's
Killer, a novel by James L.
Swanson
General:
• One 4-pack of highlighters
• Colored pencils (12 count or
above)
• Glue sticks (1 large or 3 small)
• 3 Boxes of Kleenex (given to
third-hour teacher)
• 1 Ream of copy paper
• 1 Tube of Clorox Wipes

[FighttheGoodFight]

One way to decrease costs is textbooks. In this day and age physical textbooks aren't needed and they're super expensive. There are tons of solutions that would hopefully lead to more creative teaching anyway. Also, all classes really can be primarily paperless too.

However, good luck with that. Like most of America, the textbook companies have bought and paid for all the people they need to ensure their continued financial success.

I don't know what others had at their high school but we "rented" ours for the semester from a book room. The books were pretty old. I want to say about 7 or 8 years old when in use.

[bradh]

One way to decrease costs is textbooks. In this day and age physical textbooks aren't needed and they're super expensive. There are tons of solutions that would hopefully lead to more creative teaching anyway. Also, all classes really can be primarily paperless too.

However, good luck with that. Like most of America, the textbook companies have bought and paid for all the people they need to ensure their continued financial success.

I'm fine with paperless, but not okay with doing away with teaching handwriting in schools.

[dankrutka]

A lot of classes don't even need any form of textbooks - hard copy or digital. My students all had them and we barely used them in my classes. Textbooks are generally dull, sanitized, and out of date. I could find better resources online for free. With well written standards and crowdsourced resources, getting rid of textbooks shouldn't be that hard.

[Jchaser405]

As an African American who chose to move his family back to "the hood" to suffer and dream with those not privileged to escape to more thriving (white) communities. It sucks for your own kids to have to experience a teacher shortage first hand. There were multiple occasions in which my 2nd grader's class was combined with a 5th grade class because the primary teacher quit and no sub could be found. It sucks to try and enroll your 4th grader in the only "high performing" school in the district (graded a C) and be told your zip code bars access.
My wife told told me about this episode of This American Life and it was helpful on this topic. I am not a fan of bussing programs at all and I hope someone finds another solution for our education dilemma.
Take a listen and let me know your thoughts.
562: The Problem We All Live With

[dankrutka]

As an African American who chose to move his family back to "the hood" to suffer and dream with those not privileged to escape to more thriving (white) communities. It sucks for your own kids to have to experience a teacher shortage first hand. There were multiple occasions in which my 2nd grader's class was combined with a 5th grade class because the primary teacher quit and no sub could be found. It sucks to try and enroll your 4th grader in the only "high performing" school in the district (graded a C) and be told your zip code bars access.
My wife told told me about this episode of This American Life and it was helpful on this topic. I am not a fan of bussing programs at all and I hope someone finds another solution for our education dilemma.
Take a listen and let me know your thoughts.
562: The Problem We All Live With

Jonathan Kozol's books really show how teacher fluctuation really hurts communities with people of color and/or poverty. That's why firing bad teachers is such a smaller issue than hiring and retaining good teachers, but the former is a constant talking point and the latter is all but ignored. OKC is included in Kozol's Shame of the Nation. I just don't think most middle/upper class Americans realize that the students who often need the most stability in schools have the least. Public schools are supposed to provide all students equal opportunity, but they serve to reinforce gaps that already exist.