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Thread: Amtrak to San Antonio?

  1. #51

    Default Re: Amtrak to San Antonio?

    Quote Originally Posted by ou48A View Post
    How many of you would rather see the Heartland flyer going directly to Dallas rather than Fort Worth?
    I know I would...... and I think it would significantly increase ridership.
    Unfortunately that ship has already sailed. All RR ROW between Denton and Carrollton is now devoted to the recently opened A-Train light rail. It connects Denton to downtown Dallas via a DART connection at Trinity Mills. You could always get off at the Denton Station and head into Dallas that way but the TRE would probably be less of a hassle.

    I would LOVE to see the Flyer extended to Tulsa, then Joplin, then KC. Kansas City is the closest stop on the Amtrak Chicago/NYC network to OKC, so from there you can pretty much go anywhere east. Of course we are talking about 2 days on a train but it would be a blast! It would require some serious subsidies from the state though.

  2. #52

    Default Re: Amtrak to San Antonio?

    Quote Originally Posted by adaniel View Post
    Unfortunately that ship has already sailed. All RR ROW between Denton and Carrollton is now devoted to the recently opened A-Train light rail. It connects Denton to downtown Dallas via a DART connection at Trinity Mills. You could always get off at the Denton Station and head into Dallas that way but the TRE would probably be less of a hassle.

    I would LOVE to see the Flyer extended to Tulsa, then Joplin, then KC. Kansas City is the closest stop on the Amtrak Chicago/NYC network to OKC, so from there you can pretty much go anywhere east. Of course we are talking about 2 days on a train but it would be a blast! It would require some serious subsidies from the state though.

    Holy Cow - DFW is light years ahead of OKC when it comes to rail transit. OKC (and Oklahoma in general) better get on the ball a lot faster than they are. One of OKC competitive advantage over DFW was the lack of traffic congestion but with rail becoming a very viable alternative in DFW that advantage will shift back to Texas.

    Denton
    http://www.lightrailnow.org/news/n_dtn_2011-07a.htm

    Austin
    http://www.lightrailnow.org/news/n_aus_2010-04a.htm

  3. #53

    Default Re: Amtrak to San Antonio?

    Quote Originally Posted by adaniel View Post
    Unfortunately that ship has already sailed. All RR ROW between Denton and Carrollton is now devoted to the recently opened A-Train light rail. It connects Denton to downtown Dallas via a DART connection at Trinity Mills. You could always get off at the Denton Station and head into Dallas that way but the TRE would probably be less of a hassle.

    I would LOVE to see the Flyer extended to Tulsa, then Joplin, then KC. Kansas City is the closest stop on the Amtrak Chicago/NYC network to OKC, so from there you can pretty much go anywhere east. Of course we are talking about 2 days on a train but it would be a blast! It would require some serious subsidies from the state though.

    Is the track between Denton and Dallas no longer standard gage and not compatible with Amtrak equipment?
    There isn’t an Amtrak Heartland Flyer Denton Station to get off at.

    I would like a new KC route but more than new service I would first rather see much faster service on the lines we already have that don’t lose lots and lots of money.

  4. #54

    Default Re: Amtrak to San Antonio?

    Quote Originally Posted by ou48A View Post
    Is the track between Denton and Dallas no longer standard gage and not compatible with Amtrak equipment?
    There isn’t an Amtrak Heartland Flyer Denton Station to get off at.

    I would like a new KC route but more than new service I would first rather see much faster service on the lines we already have that don’t lose lots and lots of money.
    Not sure if the rails would be compatible for the Amtrak trains, but I'm going to assume no. I made a mistake in my last post. The A-train is in fact not light rail but rather commuter rail. I do know they ripped up all of the existing track and replaced it with newer track. They are currently leasing trains from the TRE but they plan on ordering new lighter trains in the future (I'm posting a link at what they are getting here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadler_GTW)

    Holy Cow - DFW is light years ahead of OKC when it comes to rail transit. OKC (and Oklahoma in general) better get on the ball a lot faster than they are. One of OKC competitive advantage over DFW was the lack of traffic congestion but with rail becoming a very viable alternative in DFW that advantage will shift back to Texas.
    DFW has a pretty aggressive plan for rail but right funding is becoming the main hangup. Several DART stations have been scrapped such as the Knox Henderson Station that would have served Uptown Dallas (the only true walkable neighborhood in Dallas). The Cotton Belt line that would have connected Plano to DFW Airport is on hold until they can find a private operating willing to share the costs. Can't speak on details for Houston's METRO except that progress has been slooooooowwww. They had an opportunity to really expand in the early 2000's. it but Mr Tom Delay made sure they didn't get a dime. In fact the only reason the A-Train got built is Denton County sold the rights to operate the Sam Rayburn Tollway to a private Spanish company for some huge amount of money.

  5. #55

    Default Re: Amtrak to San Antonio?

    Quote Originally Posted by adaniel View Post
    Not sure if the rails would be compatible for the Amtrak trains, but I'm going to assume no. I made a mistake in my last post. The A-train is in fact not light rail but rather commuter rail. I do know they ripped up all of the existing track and replaced it with newer track. They are currently leasing trains from the TRE but they plan on ordering new lighter trains in the future (I'm posting a link at what they are getting here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadler_GTW)


    A TRE train came to OKC several months ago for an OKC demonstration.
    To the best of my knowledge commuter rail usually operates on standard gage tracks.

  6. #56

    Default Re: Amtrak to San Antonio?

    Quote Originally Posted by ou48A View Post
    To the best of my knowledge commuter rail usually operates on standard gage tracks.
    The commuter rail in Austin runs on former BNSF tracks.

  7. #57

    Default Re: Amtrak to San Antonio?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluedogok View Post
    The commuter rail in Austin runs on former BNSF tracks.
    http://www.lightrailnow.org/news/n_aus_2010-04a.htm


    MetroRail's Red Line operates over a portion of Capital Metro's 160-mile railway, a former Southern Pacific branch line stretching between the Central Texas towns of Giddings and Llano, and shared with contractual short line freight railroad operations – although "heavy" freight railroad service is shut down when MetroRail service is scheduled, and vice versa.

    This procedure, known as temporal separation (and implemented by similar light railway operations elsewhere, such as the San Diego Trolley and the RiverLine between Camden and Trenton, New Jersey), fulfills one of the rules exceptions granted by the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA), which also holds responsibility for federal regulatory oversight of MetroRail. (The Federal Transit Administration, or FTA, does not have oversight, since FTA funding was not involved in the project.)

    [It should be noted that the sharing of railway infrastructure – mainly tracks – between the operations of "light" transit-type passenger rolling stock and those of "heavy" intercity-type railroad rolling stock – locomotives, freight and passenger cars, etc. – is currently a warmly contentious issue between US transit agencies and FRA regulators. The FRA's prohibitions particularly stand in contrast to the widespread – and demonstrably safe – practice in Europe of running light rail "tram-trains" – trams (streetcars) – on major intercity railway lines shared with "heavy", highspeed intercity trains.]
    Leave it to the federal government to get in the way of itself.

  8. #58

    Default Re: Amtrak to San Antonio?

    While the federal government did not help, the project was doing plenty of getting in the way of itself

    As summarized in the LRN memo, some of the most serious weaknesses and mis-steps include:

    • Rail project personnel apparently neglected to coordinate closely early on with the FRA, although it had been clear for more than a decade that, because of CMTA's freight railroad operations, there would be regulatory involvement by the FRA.

    • The issue of comprehensive regulatory oversight of the rail project was not resolved at the outset – a situation that was certainly not helped by some confusion introduced by federal and state regulatory officials. However, it should have been clear that some measure of federal regulatory oversight would need to be settled, including some degree of intervention by the FRA. In any case, because of this confusion, some key design elements of the MetroRail project were initially not adequately coordinated in a cooperative relationship with any appropriate regulatory agency, such as the FRA – particularly crucial, as it turned out, especially in regard to rolling stock selection and signal system requirements.

    • Lack of experience with the actual challenges and requirements of rail transit projects may have contributed to the serious under-estimation of the projected investment cost of the "urban commuter rail" project presented to the public. This budget under-estimation then became a constraint, since the project team did not want to appear to be exceeding the established budget as the project progressed and other unforeseen requirements emerged.

    • Some of the capabilities of DMU technology (as a replacement for electric LRT as the technology for a future urban system) seem to have been misjudged – particularly in regard to the reduced capability of DMUs to operate in an urban street environment (e.g., turning radius constraints), their lower acceleration compared with electric LRT (and the adverse impacts of this drawback on schedules in closely spaced station stops), and their limitations in climbing grades as steep as those of electric LRT (and thus the impact of this limitation on route profiles, such as approaches to hills and bridges). By far, however, the most serious mis-step in terms of rolling stock was the failure to initially coordinate rolling stock selection with the FRA and its regulations affecting the railway alignment to be used.

    • One of the most critical features of the CMTA railway is an at-grade, interlocking-protected "diamond" crossing of the heavy-traffic north-south main line of the Union Pacific Railroad (UPRR) at McNeil Junction, north of Austin, and CMTA rail project designers proposed for the MetroRail alignment to retain this level crossing. Despite skepticism voiced by knowledgeable rail supporters (including leading representatives of the Light Rail Now Project), the need for a grade separation with the UPRR was initially rejected, and continued reliance on an interlocking-protected, at-grade crossing was assumed. As it turned out, this may have contributed to the under-estimation of the ultimate investment cost of the project.

    • Although it eventually became clear that a grade-separation (viaduct) over the UPRR was truly necessary, the narrow, single-track viaduct design that emerged omitted any provision for a future double track, thus incorporating a serious capacity constraint.

    • Ultimately, the segment of the MetroRail viaduct over the surface grade of the UPRR and a parallel siding was constructed approximately 18 inches (457mm) too low for adequate clearance of the interchange tracks – in turn necessitating the lowering of one of the underlying tracks, incurring drainage problems and substantial additional costs.

    • MetroRail sidings – to enable passing of trains in opposing directions on a predominantly single-tracked alignment – appear to have been improperly located, thus adversely impacting the system's schedules and capacity.

    • At some point into the project, in the effective absence of coordinated, systemwide project management, the project became split into at least three somewhat independent activities – civil, information technology (IT), and operations – subject to very poor coordination.

    • In 2006, approximately two years into the project, the decision was made (apparently at the behest of the FRA) to dispense with plans for a simpler system of train movement control, and to implement a safer, more industry-standard centralized traffic control (CTC) system. However, Installation of the CTC signal system, together with level crossing protection controls, seems to have been poorly coordinated, with different contractors reportedly implementing incompatible components in different segments of the line. Furthermore, according to the LRN analysis, signal system components were initially improperly installed – for example, poor insulation reportedly made the system vulnerable to rainwater infiltration.

  9. #59

    Default Re: Amtrak to San Antonio?

    On the electrification/dmu debate - for a long time I favored DMUs. That was until I rode an electrified system on a regular basis. The electric systems are very quiet and get up to speed very fast. From University City station to Eastwick station is 5.5 miles but we hit 80 mph for a good portion of it. A DMU couldn't even come close to that. Plus there is the added benefit that an electrified train can go into an enclosed building (think underground station) without any issues.

  10. #60

    Default Re: Amtrak to San Antonio?

    DMU's a primarily useful on routes with lower ridership and long distances. The efficiency / capacity tradeoff would work well on a route such as Lawton - OKC or Stillwater - OKC. I think DMU's cost slightly more than conventional commuter rail (TRE) but the infrastructure costs are much lower than electrification over longer distances. I think electric is the way to go for HSR (obviously) serving larger hubs and metropolitan systems such as DART.

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