Festival of the Arts

[Just the facts]

The project plan for TIF #2 specifically allows for investment in public properties.

Centennial Park was entirely paid for by the Devon TIF (with a kick-in from Larry Nichols).

Yes - but Devon paid the tax that was used to make the public improvements. This isn't that. This is taking tax money not paid by FotA to make improvements to a public park on behalf of FotA. To be like the Devon situation FotA would have to pay some level of tax of which a portion was then used to make public improvements that may or may not benefit FotA.

[Pete]

All TIF money comes from redirected property tax, and sometimes redirected sales tax.

And public projects are usually a big part of any TIF project plan.

[Just the facts]

So then how does FotA contribute since they don't have any property? As for sales taxes, I think they are exempt from those since they are a 501(C)(3) organization.

We could debate this all night but the bottom line is this request should have been rejected, but since it wasn't then it has to be for a reason unknown to the general public.

[BoulderSooner]

These are public improvements for the most part.

[mugofbeer]

Ive read and read and read the posts on this thread. The last few post pretty much outline what the TIFs do and the benefits they provide. Pete has asserted its taking public money and lining the pockets of the wealthy. JTF just doesnt want public money used for much of anything but it falls right into his lifestyle sweet-spot. Considering this is about a FofA, its a private entity, is one of the biggest events this city has to offer and it clearly benefits the city in general, i fail to see what all the bitchins about. TIFs are like earmarking funds for specific projects. I know you all are still hurting about Stage Center and though I have no love for the structure, its demolition should never have been allowed until construction was set. The BofA request sounds perfectly reasonable. The are no pockets to line. What am i missing?

[jerrywall]

My main complaint is that I'd be happier seeing this money spent on a permanent location for the Arts Festival and other events, rather than what appears to be a temporary location.

[Just the facts]

It is really just this simple - if the City wants to make improvements at Civic Park so that it is capable of hosting these types of events then the City just needs to do it - the own the park and they can use existing TIF money to do that right now. There is zero reason why FotA even needs to be involved with it. I am not opposed to the City spending tax dollars on public infrastructure (can't believe I even had to write that). What I am opposed to is the City giving tax money to a private entity to spend on public infrastructure. In what world does that even make sense? We give tax dollars to lots of developers so they can spend it on THEIR projects (too many to list) to ostensibly expand the tax base and sometimes developers pay taxes (or buys City property) which the City by agreement turns around and spends on public projects directly related to their development (Lower Bricktown and Outlet Mall), but this is the first time that I am aware of that it worked like this.

[mugofbeer]

I would think the city is taking advantage of the tax revenue the FofA generates and the TIF allows them to earmark it for these improvements. Once the FofA moves on to a new place like Central Park, the improvements will be there for other and future events at CC to use. FofA isnt a private developer and the are no pockets to be lined here. Are you insinuating the city is writing the FofA a literal check? I can think of numerous things in Denver, here, that are similar. Near where i work, the city of Denver spent a few bucks with infrastructure so food trucks could congregate 2 days a week on our civic center park. Thats for the direct benefit of truck owners. The issues you raise in OKC arent even an issue here. People seem to better understand the benefit. Maybe it wasnt done thru a TIF, but the net effect seems the same.

[shawnw]

I wouldn't have as much of an issue with this if it weren't for the fact that I had recently been to a festival at this very park. Seems like they had the things needed already to have a festival there, so I just don't understand what is needed over and above that.

[Just the facts]

Mug - your food truck Denver example is exactly how this should work, but that isn't how this deal is going down. In your example Denver paid for the improvements to public space to benefit the food trucks. They didn't give the money to the food trucks directly who may or may not make the public improvements the City of Denver made?

What happens in a few years when they move from Civic Park? Are they going to take their infrastructure with them or sell it to the City?

On your other question, yes the City will write them a check. How else would FotA get the money? They don't pay any taxes to get it via a rebate.

[Pete]

I would think the city is taking advantage of the tax revenue the FofA generates and the TIF allows them to earmark it for these improvements.

TIF is derived from property taxes and there will be no property taxes involved here and thus nothing for the City to 'earmark'.

[Just the facts]

Can these TIF credits be sold?

[mugofbeer]

TIF is derived from property taxes and there will be no property taxes involved here and thus nothing for the City to 'earmark'.

Maybe i am mistaken but i thought one of you said TIFs sometimes use sales taxes? So now my question would be, who is driving this? Pete, I love that your site is moving to function as a news source. Set up a short Q & A session with this person. There may be a valid reason they went through these gyrations. Perhaps given $100k, the FofA organization can get significantly more bang for the buck than the city. You all serve a great function being a watchdog but maybe soliciting some feedback from the other side would be helpful.

[mkjeeves]

I'm not sure how tax collection is structured but I'm pretty sure taxes get collected on food, drink and art sales at the festival. I believe food vendors sell directly and art sales go through the sales tent where taxes are collected and FotA takes their cut of sales. It would take forever to balance it back out on those taxes though, especially if you consider all the other city services and property the FotA relies on to function.

I support the arts. However, this stinks, is more abuse of TIF money. I'm ready for the state legislature to cut this off at the knees.

[Pete]

Maybe i am mistaken but i thought one of you said TIFs sometimes use sales taxes? So now my question would be, who is driving this? Pete, I love that your site is moving to function as a news source. Set up a short Q & A session with this person. There may be a valid reason they went through these gyrations. Perhaps given $100k, the FofA organization can get significantly more bang for the buck than the city. You all serve a great function being a watchdog but maybe soliciting some feedback from the other side would be helpful.

Some TIF's collect a portion of sales tax but not this particular TIF.

What is driving this is the City wanting to clear everything out so they can put the convention hotel on that site. And then the people at the Arts Festival not wanting to go to Central Park, as they feel the area is too raw.

[mugofbeer]

It does seem the process is a bit twisted but if the outcome is as you say, then OK. This is why we elect the City Council, to make decisions that benefit the city. Compared to the cronyism and waste seen when I was younger in OKC, it seems they do a decent job. They have to or voters and new media such as this will call them on it. A hotel of the 600-800 room variety with top notch support facilities isnt going to happen without a public-private partnership. Both Dallas and Denver had to pony up in big ways to get their hotels. A hotel developer isn't going to just plop down $750 million on an OKC hotel and take on100% of the risk if they weren't going to do it in Dallas or Denver - nor is a private lender. I am probably too much glass-half-full on this but it seems that a little dialogue with someone who participated in the process might explain a lot.

[mkjeeves]

Meanwhile in other parts of the city, the city says they don't have the million bucks it would take to do something about the most derelict, blighted and fire prone property in the city, Lantana Apartments.

[Pete]

It does seem the process is a bit twisted but if the outcome is as you say, then OK. This is why we elect the City Council, to make decisions that benefit the city. Compared to the cronyism and waste seen when I was younger in OKC, it seems they do a decent job. They have to or voters and new media such as this will call them on it. A hotel of the 600-800 room variety with top notch support facilities isnt going to happen without a public-private partnership. Both Dallas and Denver had to pony up in big ways to get their hotels. A hotel developer isn't going to just plop down $750 million on an OKC hotel and take on100% of the risk if they weren't going to do it in Dallas or Denver - nor is a private lender. I am probably too much glass-half-full on this but it seems that a little dialogue with someone who participated in the process might explain a lot.

The TIF programs have already changed due to the light shined on them by this site and by Ed Shadid and Pete White.

The OKC Public Schools are now much better informed and are actually at the negotiating table with the City, and that has already changed several things, which I will soon outline in detail.

However, the way Cathy O'Connor presents this information -- and there was a massive and complex presentation to Council yesterday that was not included in the agenda packet so no way for anyone to review in advance -- is very one-sided.

And of course it is. She is in charge of the Alliance for Economic Development and TIF is by far and away her biggest tool. If I had a high-paying (she's paid almost as much as our City Manager who manages thousands of employees) and high-profile job and could get my hands on hundreds of millions and maybe even billions of dollars that I could spend at pretty much my own discretion, I'd do the same thing.

But... This is tax money just by other names and if they are only going to present one side of things then someone has to present the other side, which is what I attempt to do.

In the process, people at the City have labeled me and the site as 'anti-TIF' which is fantastically unfair. But it's the way things work in OKC... If you don't just nod along with anything termed as Economic Development, you are immediately attacked.


I wish the video from the TIF Town Hall would be posted because you will see that the other main speaker was very critical of TIF's and in that situation I did my best to present the facts of how things work in OKC and make arguments I know the people at the City would and have put forth.

[mugofbeer]

You do a great job of it and I enjoy seeing both sides. Keep it up!

[Pete]

They have started setup for the 2018 Festival of the Arts which will run April 24-29.

[PlaschkeSucks]

Anyone know why the Festival of Arts was moved from over by the Myriad/Myriad Gardens/old Stage Center to the
Municipal Building?

[Pete]

Anyone know why the Festival of Arts was moved from over by the Myriad/Myriad Gardens/old Stage Center to the
Municipal Building?

Because the streetcar will soon be running along Hudson, which is right in the middle of the old Arts Festival location.

[Urbanized]

Being a sentimental type I was slow to embrace the new location but a few seasons in I'm now a big believer. It feels purpose-built for this event and other than not being next to the Myriad Gardens - and also Stage Center, which was gone either way - I feel like the new location is superior in pretty much every way. The primacy of the food court is reduced, but I would not say that's a bad thing. It's an arts festival, not a food festival. And certainly there is still just as much food available and truthfully better areas for consumption, including the steps of the civic center.

[shawnw]

This festival belongs in the "Civic Center" (MAPS 0 not the municipal auditorium).

Personally I wish they would use Couch/Colcord/Latting for the food court so it would be contiguous. Going back and forth between the two halves is ridic on the crowded nights. Those areas could be repurposed if the food was moved to the other side of City Hall. You might then say that the food would be too removed from the core of the festival, but it kinda was before in the previous location.

[Dustin]

It doesn't feel right not being next to the Myriad Gardens. Luckily it's not far away.