OKC Light Rail System?

[Hutch]

Does anyone think OKC will ever get a true light-rail system. I mean a commuter would be great, don't get me wrong. But, I want something this is built for its own purpose. Not just expanding what we have now and adding new cars to the tracks. I'm sure a light-rail is much faster than a commuter rail.

It all comes down to money. A light-rail system betweeen OKC, Edmond, Norman and Midwest City would cost $3-4 BILLION...commuter rail $300-400 MILLION. Most cities are now choosing to go with commuter rail due to the extremely high costs of light rail, which in most cases is simply not an affordable option unless the federal government is paying a considerable portion of the bill. Dallas, Salt Lake City, Denver, St. Louis and other cities received substantial federal funding for their light rail systems. Unfortuately, getting large amounts of federal rail transit funds is not an easy task in today's political and budgetary world. Which means we're most likley going to have to depend on ourselves and other local taxpayers to fund the system. Kansas City tried to get their voters to approve funding for a light rail system a number of years ago and failed miserably. Just recently though, Kansas City has rolled out a new rail transit plan based on a commuter rail system. That plan has gained broader support and goes to the voters later this year for approval.

[ou48A]

I don't know the exact answer to those questions. The new "Commuter Corridor Analysis" that URS Corporation is beginning for ACOG will most likely answers those and many other technical questions about conerning commuter rail, including estimated ridershsip, service frequency, operational capacities, station locations, track and infrastructure improvements, train types and numbers, and development and operational costs. The study will be ongoing for the next year and a half or so. URS will hold a number of public meetings during that time to obtain public input and discuss their efforts. I encourage everyone to keep informed throughout the process and participate in the public scoping process.

There were some preliminary estimates made of commuter rail service frequency and operational capacities by Jacobs Engineering as part of the Intermodal Hub Study that was completed in 2011. Those estimates were used to analyze service and operational capacity of the proposed intermodal hub. You can find information on the hub study at ACOG's website:

ACOG Intermodal Hub Study

Based on the Jacobs analysis, there would be seperate trains that ran between a) Norman and Edmond, b) Norman and Midwest City and c) Edmond and Midwest City. All trains would connect through Santa Fe Intermodal Station in OKC. The Norman to Emdond trains would be on offsetting service times from the Norman to Midwest City and Edmond to Midwest City trains. With the offset service times, if the trains were initially all on one-hour headways, the effect would be 30-minute headways for the system. The number of train sets required to operate on 30-minute headways will depend on the number of stations, stop times and other factors. My guess would be that initially each train set would be made up of one locomotive and two or three bi-level coaches. As ridership grows, you don't add additional train sets, just additonal coaches. You would only need to add additional train sets if you went to shorter headway times.

I hope that helps answer your questions.

Thanks,
Your post and link contain great information and clear up most of my questions.

In a previous link you posted it contained links to meetings that you had participated in.
One concern raised was about getting votes for a commuter rail system from people who would not be taking the train. I believe very significant support could be gained from the public if our commuter rail system offered special service to large events, particularly on the weekends. This would require significant flexibility and enough system capacity.


I know that in Norman many people who don’t even go to the football games would like to see their parking and traffic congestion concerns addressed. Most fans would too!
Many fans who hate night driving or driving in heavy traffic would love to be able to take a train to the games from a park and ride facility… Special reserved game day train tickets may be helpful.

As you say “It all comes down to money” I know the following suggestion would be more expensive.
But I believe it would be well worth it in the long run.

I would suggest that an OU train station be located west of the OU Duck Pond, north of the OU track facility and south of Brooks street. The station would probably need to be elevated above the surrounding area. This location puts the train station much closer to the heart of OU and within eye sight and in the minds of many potential everyday riders and visitors. Many would not want to make the walk in the dark over to the current RR tracks and that would be a cold walk in the winter.

There are rumors that OU would eventually like to build a new arena just north of my suggested location for the OU commuter rail station.

Many people who attend OU events have significant influence in our state and in our area. I am willing to bet that the more exposure these people have to a commuter rail system when attending OU events that funding support for future transit projects will be exponentially increased by several times. It is for this reason that I also strongly suggest building a train stop near CHK on NW 63th in OKC.

I believe the location of a user friendly OU station is one of the biggest key’s for future success and is a great selling point for the entire commuter rail system.

I hope your committee give this location due consideration.
Thanks

[C_M_25]

I think a rail system would be nice between the cities around OKC, i.e. Edmond, Yukon, Norman, somewhere out to the SW, and maybe Choctaw. This could significantly help with traffic congestion. However, I wonder how efficient this would really be in the OKC area. You can get to just about every major suburbia city around here within 20 miles. Is this far enough to really make a difference in overall commute times?

Currently, I live about as far North as I ever want to live and commute downtown. My drive takes me 25 minutes in the morning and 35 minutes in the afternoon. When I leave work, I head downstairs, walk to the garage, and I am making progress towards home in 5 minutes tops. Now, if I had to take a train, I would have to walk to the hub, wait for the train, board the train, wait for everyone else to board which could take anywhere from 10-15 minutes. Now, once the train departs, it would get to where it needs to be in 10 minutes or so; however, I still have to wait for everybody to exit, get in my vehicle, and get stuck in a mass of traffic trying to leave the train station and still drive home from there. That process seems like it would take a really long time. Does the train make sense for commuting and decrease traffic congestion? Yes, absolutely. But does it seem practical for OKC? In my simple mind, it doesn't. Maybe it would be much more practical if you are driving from Edmond to Norman or Guthrie to OKC, but not many people do that.

[ou48A]

Maybe it would be much more practical if you are driving from Edmond to Norman or Guthrie to OKC, but not many people do that.

A quick commuter rail system is vital to its success

I don’t know the exact numbers but there are tens of thousands who commute from Edmond and Norman to the down town OKC area…

For many professionals and students it’s an opportunity to get additional work done that they would have a hard time doing while driving…..

Putting fewer miles on a car usually saves money but since many employers help with the cost of riding the train it becomes far more cost effective than driving the full distance.

[catch22]

A long term cause is the fact that the more downtown grows, the fewer the parking spaces will be readily available. In many others larger cities, if you want to park downtown, you will be paying upwards of $14 a day for non peak/early bird slots. And can be double for peak usage. I paid the parking bill in Chicago a few months back...$37 for about 6 hours of peak usage. You also might be 10 blocks (although smaller than our blocks so about 3/4 mile away) from your destination. If you want to go downtown, you take the train or bus, or pay for the convenience of the automobile.

Right now it may be inefficient time-wise to take a train if we had one, but in 20 or 30 years from now (or even sooner if we hit a huge boom) the train might be the most cost effective method and rapid method.

[catch22]

Basically, we must plan for the future OKC and build our transit system now to build the city we want to build.

[OKCisOK4me]

Austin, TX, metro population is 1.7 million and their 32 mile commuter route has been popular since it started operating in March 2010. There's nothing wrong with planning for the future of OKC by having a system implemented well in advance, so that however long it takes to gain half a mill more residents, there are plenty of viable options when it comes to transportation. Also, remember that Austin has a plethora of toll roads and highways so the automobile culture is active there as well even though they are more of a walkable and bike friendly city.

[HOT ROD]

Chicago's L system is light rail. They do have commuter rail that runs parallel to certain segments. I believe the commuter rail is called METRA and it is a completely different system and offers no connectivity to the Chicago CTA or the L. All METRA fares are only good on Metra and cannot be used on the L or CTA buses.

Chicago's L is heavy metro subway not light rail. Heavy metro subway uses heavy rail cars on standard gauge tracks typically with 3rd rail electricity for power and completely grade separated underground or above. Chicago's L subway system is one of the oldest in the world and has lines that are both above and below ground. Chicago has no light rail.

You did correctly state that one of Chicago's commuter rail system is Metra. Commuter rail uses heavy rail cars with DMU or Diesel Electric locomotives.

The main difference I know between the systems are:

Subway/Metro Heavy Rail cars Multiple configuration/train lengths Typically 3rd rail power Always completely grade separated Usually below ground in ultra high density, above in less dense. Ultra-high capacity system with frequent stops

Commuter Rail Heavy Rail cars Train made of several pax cars Typically DMU or Diesel electric loco Grade Separated in Freight or dedicated CR track High capacity but not many stops

Light Rail Light Rail cars (hence the name) Usually in pairs of cars Typically overhead catenary power Mix with traffic or grade separated Medium capacity system with frequent stops

Streetcar Light Rail Cars Usually single car or two to make a train Typically overhead catenary power exists within traffic but can have grade separation Low capacity with ultra-frequent stops



OKC will have Streetcar and I am certain Commuter Rail in the near future. I think Light Rail and certainly Subway/Metro are out of the question, period.

[catch22]

Thank you for the correction, HOT ROD.

[UncleCyrus]

Maybe it would be much more practical if you are driving from Edmond to Norman or Guthrie to OKC, but not many people do that.

We have three people in our office that drive from Guthrie to the state capitol area every day.

[C_M_25]

We have three people in our office that drive from Guthrie to the state capitol area every day.

Ok, ok. You guys have hammered me enough about my "not many people do that" statement. So you know some people that drive that far? Wouldn't it be cheaper to move closer to your destination? I used to commute north okc to norman, and I ended up moving to Norman because that was the most cost-efficient method of travel.

I agree though as far as building for the future of OKC, but the timing has to be right. Are we expecting such growth in the nearterm that we will need a rail? What happens if we build the rail and we don't see the growth?

[BoulderSooner]

Chicago's L is heavy metro subway not light rail. Heavy metro subway uses heavy rail cars on standard gauge tracks typically with 3rd rail electricity for power and completely grade separated underground or above. Chicago's L subway system is one of the oldest in the world and has lines that are both above and below ground. Chicago has no light rail.

You did correctly state that one of Chicago's commuter rail system is Metra. Commuter rail uses heavy rail cars with DMU or Diesel Electric locomotives.

The main difference I know between the systems are:

Subway/Metro Heavy Rail cars Multiple configuration/train lengths Typically 3rd rail power Always completely grade separated Usually below ground in ultra high density, above in less dense. Ultra-high capacity system with frequent stops

Commuter Rail Heavy Rail cars Train made of several pax cars Typically DMU or Diesel electric loco Grade Separated in Freight or dedicated CR track High capacity but not many stops

Light Rail Light Rail cars (hence the name) Usually in pairs of cars Typically overhead catenary power Mix with traffic or grade separated Medium capacity system with frequent stops

Streetcar Light Rail Cars Usually single car or two to make a train Typically overhead catenary power exists within traffic but can have grade separation Low capacity with ultra-frequent stops



OKC will have Streetcar and I am certain Commuter Rail in the near future. I think Light Rail and certainly Subway/Metro are out of the question, period.

i would bet that if the street car and communter rail are any kind of success that we will add a NW lightrail at some point ..

[Just the facts]

i would bet that if the street car and communter rail are any kind of success that we will add a NW lightrail at some point ..

If you look at other cities where rail has been introduced this is true. Suburbs of Salt Lake City are fighting each other to be connected next. The one exception I can think of is Atlanta. The people here are screaming for it (including voting down road expansions) but none of the suburbs want to connect to downtown Atlanta.

[Snowman]

i would bet that if the street car and communter rail are any kind of success that we will add a NW lightrail at some point ..

Possibly but we could probably do a few decades of development with the rail we already have.

[BoulderSooner]

Possibly but we could probably do a few decades of development with the rail we already have.

true however a huge OKC voting block lies to the Northwest of downtown and there is no current rail corridor going that direction i would bet that if we form a RTA that a NW line is looked at sooner rather than later

[metro]

Surprised there is not a thread on this. I looked over the 7 pages and couldn't find a thread dedicated to a light rail for the greater OKC area. Anyways I came across this article from The Edmond Sun(of all places ) and thought I'd pass it along.

Group looks at light rail for metro » Local News » The Edmond Sun

PluPan, light rail has been discussed hear often but there has never been a thread devoted to just light rail.

Sure there has, it's just been a few years:

http://www.okctalk.com/suburban-othe...l-options.html

http://www.okctalk.com/norman/29220-...-system-3.html

http://www.okctalk.com/general-civic...-layout-2.html

[metro]

Surprised there is not a thread on this. I looked over the 7 pages and couldn't find a thread dedicated to a light rail for the greater OKC area. Anyways I came across this article from The Edmond Sun(of all places ) and thought I'd pass it along.

Group looks at light rail for metro » Local News » The Edmond Sun

If you look at other cities where rail has been introduced this is true. Suburbs of Salt Lake City are fighting each other to be connected next. The one exception I can think of is Atlanta. The people here are screaming for it (including voting down road expansions) but none of the suburbs want to connect to downtown Atlanta.

Is this an extension of MARTA or separate?

[Just the facts]

Is this an extension of MARTA or separate?

A few years ago Gwinett County voted against expanding MARTA. They were afraid of two things. First, they didn't want people from South Atlanta coming up to rob them, and second, they didn't want people who would rely on mass transit to live in their county. I'm not joking BTW, those were the major opposition points.

Last year metro Atlanta voted down a transportation package because it was front loaded with years of highway construction and commuter rail in the out years. Everyone I heard comment on the subject wanted rail at the beginning but the suburban leadership and GDOT don't want rail at all.

[TAlan CB]

I use to live in Dallas and used the expanding light rail there all the time to go to venues and not drive in that mess. Living deep inside Dallas (south of White Rock Lake), using the light rail was cheaper than finding a parking place downtown for work. In Dallas all the rail traffic was commuters from as far north as Sherman (they had commuter buses that would drop off riders at the farthest north rail station). All of the rail stops had plenty of parking, shopping, and large bus stops to connect to the rail. Buses were extensive and ran at local stops in the city every 10-15 min. on city routes. The light rail went to or near every major venue. There had been years of opposition to it getting built, but once built there was massive demand for it to expand to 'their neighborhood'. Now I live in suburban Atlanta - Alpharetta. Why? My son was born in Dallas, but he is not going to Atlanta public schools (the same would have been true in Dallas) We picked an area based on the schools. I wanted to use Marta, but though it seems similar to Dallas, the resemblence is superficial. Marta buses and rail don't run as extensively or often. Marta stations are dark, isolated (with few exceptions) with no buisness, no police presence and generally univiting. Marta trains are faster. I do use Marta to go downtown for conventions, or to the courts for jury duty - so I don't have to drive Atlanta's traffic - which is far worse than Dallas. The city here is laid out by following old 'cow paths' or 'Indian paths' - no sense at all. In Dallas it was very easy to get around inside the belt line, almost all streets were 6 lanes on a grid. There are a lot of things about Atlanta that is better than Dallas - transportation is not one of them. The Marta expansion failed not because northern subs don't want - they do. It failed because it was paired with Auto projects, and rail did not seek to expand into areas of town that wanted Marta. Since they were not getting it in this proposal, they voted against it. Ironically it was poorer southern neighborhoods that voted against it - they were not getting enough rail expansion. In Dallas one could not own a car and get around with no problem - bus stops everywhere every 15min., not to mention the rail. In Atlanta it would be very hard. Plus, there is a lot more gang violence in urban Atlanta. Georgia Tech students (G-tech is downtown) get assaulted all the time.

Light rail downtown OKC is for tourist. True rail systems go long distance and use bus connections. It is a good start, it will get people familiar with rail. A dedicated line from Norman to Edmond and from Yukon to MWC would work. But an equal investment in buses would be needed. Before any of this can happen, voters have to understand that mass trans does not pay for itself directly, it must be subsidised. It pays as an engine for buisness, replaces the need for more or new highways (which don't pay for themselves) and creates community. No major city in the world does not have effective public transportation.

Best of luck, maybe using Dallas as an example will help. But there seems a major lack public education on the truth of public transport in OKC - ironic since OKC was laid out by light rail systems that had no real competition from cars (yet).

[Hutch]

Part 2 of the Edmond Sun's Transit Series is out:

Committee Considers Regional Transit Authority

Here's the link to Part 1 again:

Group Considers Commuter Rail for Metro

[Just the facts]

Building a commuter rail system between Edmond, Oklahoma City and Norman would cost $200 million to $300 million

So half the price of 4 miles of interstate. I know where they can get $80 million in starter funds.

[stdennis]

How do you think the commuter rail will interact with tinker? will there be a stop inside of tinker (probably too risky) or will there be a stop outside of tinker with shuttles, buses or their own rail system that goes into tinker? Tinker is too big and spread for there to be a stop and then just walk to your destination on the far side of tinker.

[OKCisOK4me]

How do you think the commuter rail will interact with tinker? will there be a stop inside of tinker (probably too risky) or will there be a stop outside of tinker with shuttles, buses or their own rail system that goes into tinker? Tinker is too big and spread for there to be a stop and then just walk to your destination on the far side of tinker.

I've looked at Google Maps myself and I'd say a commuter train would come down the wye and stop there just north of SE 29th St. I think it'd be cool if they turned the old rail bridge over I-40 into a covered pedestrian crosswalk so it would be a quick walk to the base but not so brisk on the worst days of weather. I don't think they'd have an actual commuter train roll through the fences onto the base.

[BoulderSooner]

How do you think the commuter rail will interact with tinker? will there be a stop inside of tinker (probably too risky) or will there be a stop outside of tinker with shuttles, buses or their own rail system that goes into tinker? Tinker is too big and spread for there to be a stop and then just walk to your destination on the far side of tinker.

there is already an on base shuttle system on tinker if more people came on base via train i'm sure it would be expanded

[Plutonic Panda]

Local commuter rail would depend on cooperation of railways » Local News » The Edmond Sun