Skirvin Expansion / Convention Center Hotel (dead)

[Pete]

There is an existing railroad overpass where that bridge would be located, so people could cross at street level. And as previously mentioned, extending the Underground would work, too.

And although the Skirvin (actually Marcus Hotels) is driving this, they would have to get lots of cooperation from the city, property owners and even the Renaissance Hotel (it currently is attached to the south section of the SF garage).

Would it be so terrible if Marcus profited from this? After all, they invested in the Skirvin and did a fantastic job in restoring and running it -- they've been a great partner with OKC. They also have an excellent reputation for the various properties they own and operate. I have complete trust they could not only pull this off but do it right. They own the Milwaukee Hilton which is adjacent to their new convention center, so they know a thing or two about this.

[Spartan]

I would second okcboy's post and add this:

Why would you think the general public would be denied opportunities. I would think there would be more opportunities as there will not be a convention every week and with 400 plus extra rooms there will probably be some heavy discounting to rent those rooms when that happens.

Do you really think that the Skirvin is proposing to add a whole bunch of rooms they mostly won't use just so they can offer them to locals most of the time at discounted rates?? Of course not. This is about the Skirvin positioning themselves to be booked silly, because it's not enough being 90% booked. The only way to improve on that is to seize the M3 convention center opportunity being presented. Now we can see why the Skirvin group has been playing the local politics game lately, even siding against preservationists, etc.

I'm not sure how the FNC being renovated into hotel is a natural conclusion derived from this proposal, either. Perhaps in that this still wouldn't put much of a dent in our hotel needs, but for me that's a tough fact to spin into a positive.

And I am concerned for the historic preservation aspects of this deal. This is getting fast and loose in proximity to some historic properties and I would want to make sure that Bricktown's Main Street isn't about to be decimated. North Bricktown is my favorite convention center site, but not at the cost of Main Street...

[Pete]

I always thought that a CC hotel would serve the guests of the CC.? If this proposal is accepted then the Skirvin Hotel will serve only convention goers correct?

I'm sure they would give priority to conventioneers when they have a big event, but I don't think this is much different than what happens now at the Skirvin and the other downtown hotels: they merely contract with large groups to reserve blocks of rooms.

Otherwise, people just reserve rooms as usual.

"Convention Hotel" just means it's larger and is in the immediate vicinity of the convention center.

[Spartan]

Typically at least 80 but often 90% of their bookings are convention-related, from some CVB people I've talked with.

[Pete]

I'm not sure how the FNC being renovated into hotel is a natural conclusion derived from this proposal

The eastern end of that structure is directly across the street from the Skirvin and on Park Avenue, the street that would lead directly to the bridge/walkway over EK Gaylord.

There has been much discussion about the highest and best use of the tower and Great Banking Hall being a large hotel... This proposal would give real viability to that idea -- something that has been completely lacking for 40 years and for the foreseeable future.

[Pete]

Typically at least 80 but often 90% of their bookings are convention-related, from some CVB people I've talked with.

This is typical of most downtown hotels.

And despite their high occupancy rate (this is a good thing!) it seems just about everyone that has tried to reserve a room for visiting guests or special occasions has had good success based on numerous posts on this site.

Besides, don't we want visitors staying in that beautiful structure run by the most sophisticated hotel operators in the state? Again, this is a good thing.

If it is indeed always booked, that just means more hotels will be built.

[Chicken In The Rough]

This was my favorite location for the new convention center even before this proposal. But this just makes it awesome. Proximity to the existing major hotels, the possibility of bringing thousands of conventioneers to Bricktown, the demolition of that fugly parking garage that has cut off Bricktown for decades... I don't see any downsides.

Does anyone have an educated guess at the approximate height of the proposed tower? The only thing that could make this proposal sweeter is a highrise north of the existing Skirvin. There are mixed use hotels all over the country. Perhaps they could build 20 floors of hotel rooms with an additional 20 floors of apartments. With a pedestal of restaurants, meeting rooms, and an athletic club, this building could easily exceed 45 floors. Is this too much of a dream?

[Architect2010]

2010, I didn't know you thought in this way. If OKC could support downtown retail, don't you think it would have already been built? If OKC could support a vibrant, mixed-use downtown, don't you think it would have already been built? I absolutely cringed when I read that...

You have now idea or relative concept of how I think, I'm afraid. One mere post isn't near conclusive enough for you to gather any concrete evidence on the my real nature of my opinion. Maybe I am still quite naive still but obviously the city and planners see it is as a risk to current hotel room occupancy. I, not knowing much about that sorta thing as a lot of people don't, tend to stand by them because I would expect them to know what they're doing.

I don't think that you understand the concept of the convention center hotel. It is not a hotel that is generally open to public booking. Every night, generally 90% of its rooms are attached to the convention center. It exists only for the purpose of the convention center and it creates its own business. OKC does not have anything like this because OKC can not even currently compete for the kinds of conventions that require this many rooms in one building. The only down-side to the convention center hotel is that it requires a subsidy in the beginning, which if often paid back later, or so we hope (there always has to be skepticism at this point when that promise is made in Oklahoma).

I understand what a convention center hotel is. Thanks. Just because I don't post much doesn't mean I can't comprehend. ;]

Which would still represent a net loss of structured parking spaces downtown, although I agree wholeheartedly that the Santa Fe Garage either needs to go or needs some drastic changes.

Never said it would result in the same amount of net parking spaces or more. I am aware of the loss net. But I think it's completely justifiable.

We're talking about this as being contingent on the selection of a convention center site that could just as well (and more reasonably) happen without the Skirvin.

You're just fckin' clever, aren't ya?

Well hot damn!

No.

What is it revitalizing? The Skirvin? It was already renovated.

Revitalizing in the sense of added urban character and design. The new Skirvin expansion would replace a suburban-esque drive through bank. The impenetrable Santa Fe Garage facade would be broken up and brought down to a more interesting and bearable scale that allows EK Gaylord and Park to interact. The sea of parking between Main and Oklahoma under the Walnut Bridge would be built upon. Maybe I used bad diction, but I don't think it was that hard to wrap your head about what I meant.

True. I think you can do that without the Skirvin getting to be the sole biggest hotel downtown, though. But I also agree that it's an intriguing proposal that shouldn't be counted out necessarily, if they can come up with how they're going to make the numbers work--not involving rhetoric about why their numbers are right and the city's are wrong, blah blah..

I agree with you completely.

[Pete]

By the way, the Renaissance has always called itself a "convention center hotel" -- it's just a name that means very little:

http://www.marriott.com/hotels/trave...-center-hotel/

By way of comparison, it has 300 rooms on 15 levels and features a bigger footprint than this proposed Skirvin expansion. To accommodate 425 rooms, they would have to go to at least 20 levels.

[okcboy]

MAPS is a program designed to build new state of the art facilities and entice new development. All of the discussions about tearing down or using existing facilities are
good, but not in the context of what the MAPS program is all about. I'm fairly certain The Skirvin will do very well on its own and still be the landmark hotel that it is now.
Which might be better for them in the long term.

[G.Walker]

If you read the actual proposal from Skirvin to City, Skirvin is proposing 22 stories.

[dmoor82]

If you read the actual proposal from Skirvin to City, Skirvin is proposing 22 stories.

So.....250-300ft tall?Which would be as tall as this?- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valliance_Bank_Tower

[Spartan]

You have now idea or relative concept of how I think, I'm afraid. One mere post isn't near conclusive enough for you to gather any concrete evidence on the my real nature of my opinion. Maybe I am still quite naive still but obviously the city and planners see it is as a risk to current hotel room occupancy. I, not knowing much about that sorta thing as a lot of people don't, tend to stand by them because I would expect them to know what they're doing.

What city are you talking about? What planners? Who has said that OKC can't absorb more downtown hotel rooms??

You're just fckin' clever, aren't ya?

Yes.

[mcca7596]

They would have to acquire the building across from the Maywood lofts for this site; I think that would be somewhat disappointing after the renovation work that has gone into that building.

[Patrick]

I always thought that a CC hotel would serve the guests of the CC.? If this proposal is accepted then the Skirvin Hotel will serve only convention goers correct? I am not so sure this is a good idea.

No, anyone can book a room at most convention hotels, not just convention goers. Conventions don't happen all the time. Sure, sometimes conventions will book the entire hotel, but usually, they play the same booking game as Billy Joe on the street.

[Patrick]

This site is like sitting in the back in the corner and in the dark at a restaurant. Eliminating competition, city building them another tower, making them the headquarters
hotel..you can tell this proposal came from the Skirvin people. This site provides no future growth, development, and hinders future high speed rail alignments. Also not to sure the BNSF would allow to have a pedestrian walkway over the track. Many problems with this site.

The city is being paid back for the loan they gave them to renovate the Skirvin. So it's not like the "city is building them another tower."

Also, in regards to competition, it isn't like people are busting down the door for the opportunity to build a convention hotel in OKC.

[dmoor82]

To me,any vertical building upward in The core of OKC is good no matter where its located!But thats just me!

[Pete]

250-300ft tall?Which would be as tall as this?

Valliance Bank Tower is 22 floors and 321 feet tall. Typically, hotels are not as tall as office buildings per floor, as they don't require suspended ceilings, raised floors, etc.

I would think a 22 level hotel would be about the same height as the 19-story current Devon HQ, which is 262 feet. And unfortunately, that wouldn't add a lot to our skyline.

[Spartan]

Look, guys. We all need to take a big step back from this and ask a few more questions. I think too many of you are falling for the bright, shiny rendering. "Ooooh 22 stories, it says, this one is a winner!" If that's what really matters, I assure you that a real convention center hotel would/should be even taller than that. Here are a few more questions that I think need to be answered.

1. What is going to happen to EKG now? Now that we're getting rid of the Santa Fe Garage and EKG is getting some new frontage, is EKG going to remain the same street?

2. Why not just extend Park Avenue to intersect with EKG? I don't understand why that wasn't automatically part of the deal if the Santa Fe Garage is to be torn down.

3. Would this enable the city to attempt another deal for a smaller (not 800-room) convention hotel on the right side of the tracks?

4. What will happen to East Main? The Sherman Iron Works Bldg? The north side of the street, much of which was just renovated?

5. What will be the situation with EKG to the north of the Skirvin, where the new tower will be? It would seem like if this goes forward, now more than ever does the city really need to address the fact that the EKG bend is not pedestrian friendly. If the city is not interested in addressing this fact, it makes more sense to just continue to leave the area north of the Skirvin alone.

6. What will be the affect of the pedestrian bridge over the tracks? Will BNSF go along with this, and will it be a problem for a high-speed rail connection to Tulsa coming up hopefully soon?

7. They still said they want a subsidy, though..plus all of this addition infrastructure is probably going to cost the city. How much taxpayer cost are we really talking about here?

And that's just from the ones I have right now..

[Patrick]

Do you really think that the Skirvin is proposing to add a whole bunch of rooms they mostly won't use just so they can offer them to locals most of the time at discounted rates?? Of course not. This is about the Skirvin positioning themselves to be booked silly, because it's not enough being 90% booked. The only way to improve on that is to seize the M3 convention center opportunity being presented. Now we can see why the Skirvin group has been playing the local politics game lately, even siding against preservationists, etc.

And there's a problem with that? Face it, Marcus Hotels is a corporation like any other corporation, and they're in the business to make profits. It's not like we're
going to get a hotel operator that will come in and won't profit from the M3 CC. The good thing about working with Marcus Hotels though, instead of some other group, is that we're familiar with their work and they do a great job at what they do. And, they took a risk on our community by investing in the Skirvin....the least we can do is allow them to profit some.

I'm not sure how the FNC being renovated into hotel is a natural conclusion derived from this proposal, either. Perhaps in that this still wouldn't put much of a dent in our hotel needs, but for me that's a tough fact to spin into a positive.

It puts the CC and CC hotel a lot closer to FNC making it prime resal estate for a conversion.

And I am concerned for the historic preservation aspects of this deal. This is getting fast and loose in proximity to some historic properties and I would want to make sure that Bricktown's Main Street isn't about to be decimated. North Bricktown is my favorite convention center site, but not at the cost of Main Street...

Part of main street was scheduled to be replaced by a Holiday Inn Express anyways before the economy went sour.

[dmoor82]

Valliance Bank Tower is 22 floors and 321 feet tall. Typically, hotels are not as tall as office buildings per floor, as they don't require suspended ceilings, raised floors, etc.

I would think a 22 level hotel would be about the same height as the 19-story current Devon HQ, which is 262 feet. And unfortunately, that wouldn't add a lot to our skyline.

^^Thank's Pete,I was pretty close on my guestimate though!

[Patrick]

Typically at least 80 but often 90% of their bookings are convention-related, from some CVB people I've talked with.

It all depends on what kind of conventions you're able to get, and who ponies up the money for those rooms.

[Spartan]

Also, in regards to competition, it isn't like people are busting down the door for the opportunity to build a convention hotel in OKC.

This is totally false. I don't mean to go negative, but you did attempt to make a definitive statement, so I'll just say you clearly have no idea what kind of deals are currently being talked about. For the convention center committee to be affected by an announcement of any prospective deal would be ridiculous.

[okcboy]

Its great that it is being paid back, but the city money still made it happen. My gut says there are some fish on the hook for a new convention center hotel. Hopefull we will do whats right for the city and not whats right for any possible agendas.

[Spartan]

No no no no no.. time for a fact intervention.

It puts the CC and CC hotel a lot closer to FNC making it prime resal estate for a conversion.

Another site, the current Cox Site, would be even better. If the goal is to renovate the FNC site, from there you would have to get across a lot less barriers to connect the FNC to a new convention center. That's another idea out there...

Part of main street was scheduled to be replaced by a Holiday Inn Express anyways before the economy went sour.

False. One building was, the old dairy that is evidently falling apart anyway. Having lost structural stability it will likely have to be demolished anyway, although more studying does need to be done as to what it would take to save it. There are 3 other buildings just on that side of Main alone between the tracks and the Walnut bridge, and that's not even including the Sherman Iron Works across the street which will apparently await a future new use as a parking garage under this plan. Sheesh...

Yes, I get it that Marcus has been a good partner for OKC. OKC has been a good partner for Marcus as well, and that relationship will continue at the Skirvin. I am just calling out their motives for those who think, "Oh my god, I love you Marcus, you guys are trying to do us a solid!" which seems to be the general reaction of this thread.