I240 Revitalization Efforts

[Snowman]

Questor: While I can certainly see the synergy between Toby Keith's and Bass Pro in theory (the same "redneck" clientele...and I don't use that it a pejorative way, more in the Jeff Foxworthy definition), they are both along the canal and in Lower Bricktown but it isn't like they area next door to each other. Besides, I haven't heard/read of a single business that built on the Canal because of Bass Pro, but it was the Canal itself

That said, I do agree about what you said in #3. What the City should have done is convince a Wal-mart Supercenter to build there if they wanted other retail to flourish. Just look at up at Memorial or just about any other place where they have put one in. Other retail can't build/open stores fast enough just to be near them. Heck, they could have put the Bass Pro inside the Wal-mart and it could have been the sporting goods dept...LOL

Walmart hardly lets other retail flourish, they usually kill off small businesses when they move in, most of the flourishing retail areas with a Walmart among them were a destination shopping location or smaller cities main shopping area before the Walmart got there.

[Questor]

This thread makes me sad.

[Questor]

1. Rather than guessing that the parking lot is full of free parkers you may be better served by actually going inside. I personally shop there and have for 30 years. I either ordered from the catalog or actually went to the store in Springfield before they came here. The store is always full when I am there. They also do a pretty good job of watching who is parking there. I have seen them tow cars as well.

Tell me specifically which store you are talking about when you say the Bass Pro store tows cars, OKC or Springfield? I believe you are talking about the Springfield store because the OKC store does not tow cars from the lot adjacent from it because the lot is owned, just like the building itself that the Bass Pro is located in, by the city and that is part of the agreement. I am just pointing this out because it misrepresents the original point, that being that the OKC lot is full because everyone is inside shopping at Bass Pro is not necessarily a true statement.

Actually I've been to the OKC, Springfield, and Grapevine (I believe that is where it's at) BP stores. I wish people wouldn't always assume that simply because someone holds a different opinion on things than you that this must obviously mean they have no first-hand knowledge of whatever subject it is that is being discussed. That's a very arrogant view to take on things. Okay, so we both have shopped at a few BPs and live in OKC (or at least I assume you do). Great, so far we're on the same page. You responded to tell me I'm wrong. So instead, here's where we start talking about why we think differently about the same thing.

The first point I was trying to make was that you really can't assume success, or failure, from the standpoint of that store helping out OKC from looking at the parking lot, which was specifically your original point. Now if what you really meant, but did not actually say in your first point, is that the inside of the store is busy... yeah, I've been in there several times and on one occasion it was completely and utterly dead. On another it was pretty busy. I'd have to stand at the entrance for days on end with a clicker to really get a sense of the true story. I haven't done that. Have you done that? I am sure that BP has done that. Have they published that information? No, BP is a private entity and they do not release that kind of data. But let's go ahead and continue down this path. In what way does the store being busy help out Bricktown? Is your argument that they are generating people, or generating tax money? Let's start with the money argument. So first, let's assume that there are a lot of people going in that store. Are they browsing around, or are they actually buying? You can answer with an anecdote and so can I, but neither one of us can answer with facts to know how well that store is really performing because the store is a private entity and it doesn't release that information to the public. So then all we are doing is spewing BS at one another. That was sort of what I was trying to convey in my first message, maybe it wasn't clear, so that is why I am writing so much now. It make no sense to argue this point whatsoever because neither of us knows the facts and cannot. So then maybe your argument was the second, that BP is generating a lot of people traffic. From the standpoint of Bricktown that's probably good even if they aren't buying anything. But it's only good if those people are staying in Bricktown for a while after looking over Bass Pro. Surely some percent of the people are. But do we know how many? Maybe there's a survey out there, but I haven't seen it.

I do know this though, and this ties into my strategic thinking comment: If OKC were truly thinking strategically, and the only good argument for the store we can come up with above is the people traffic argument, then WHY OH WHY did we locate the thing as far away from the rest of Bricktown as we did? WHY OH WHY did we make it so gosh darn easy to pull in, park, walk in, shop, leave, and zoom away by car without having to go through the rest of Bricktown? Is it strategic thinking to build something so suburban in an area that is dependent on urban foot traffic? Is it strategic thinking to build a "magnet" as far away from the rest of your retail in the area as possible? Please explain to me the strategic thinking that I am missing here.

2. You Say that the city should have thought bigger. How? What do you want ...a mall there? The fact is that there is a group that is focused on bringing more retail to bricktown. If you have leads or ideas on the "big ones", then throw them out here. We are very interested. I am also very involved in bringing businesses to the city and have been doing it for over 15 years. Bricktown has entertainment and dining. We need more retail to round it out. We would love just focus on the big projects but have to look at all projects. I also see the reports of the convention group surveys which indicate that visitors do shop in bricktown especially Bass Pro.

This is kind of a ridiculous question because the responses are limitless. Travel through this world. Look around. There are so many things that we could have built in Bricktown with public funding that would have offered better strategic direction and possibly better revenues. Okay, let's start with retail. Why couldn't we have built a Classen Curve in Bricktown? If you ask the genius marketers of the world this city couldn't support a CC then and it still can't now. The only reason we have a CC here is because guys with money, vision, and the tenacity to make it happen made it happen and have proven the marketing firms wrong. The demand was and is there. Why couldn't someone have had the vision to make that happen 10 years ago? Why couldn't it have been Bricktown? Why couldn't we have used public and private funds to do that? Don't tell me it couldn't have been successful, CC is its own proof that contrary to marketing data something like that can be successful here, probably even in Bricktown. Why wouldn't it have been better, and must more intelligent of a business decision from a "diversified portfolio" standpoint, to create a massive mixture of retail, each one with its own up and down cycles, rather than one giant monolithic big box at that site? Why didn't it make more sense to, in your most urban area of the city, locate something that focuses on WALKING, strolling, MOVING, and so on like the Classen Curve does? Why on earth would we build a giant box with one entrance at the front whose job is to get you in and out as quickly as possible? Why would we not see that is exactly what we were doing, all while the same time paying lip service to wanting to do away with all of our one-way streets downtown because we want to keep people in the core longer? Did anyone stop and think about the big picture like this at all, or was it simply they had to perform, they needed something, and they panicked? It sure seems like the latter to an outside observer. You say we have dining... we have like 147 steak shops. Except for the occasional here and then gone sushi place ethnic dining has had a very tough time surviving in Bricktown. Remember the Indian place that went out? Or the Chinese place? Or the various incarnations of Japanese restaurants? We don't even have very good coverage of dining let alone other things entirely. One Italian, one I guess it's Italian, a smattering of Mexican, and a tapas place that seems half dead every time I go in. That can't be healthy. Perhaps it is because the clientele in Bricktown likes steak and BBQ? Now how did that happen?

How about some more entertainment options? It's great that we have bowling and movies. What about art house movies? What about, I don't know, heck, indoor golf, high-end arcades... why did Dave and Busters have to locate so far from downtown? Why did we never get the GameWerks we were promised? I know the backstory, I know why they backed out that is not my question... why did that particular idea of a type of retail die with GameWerks? Clearly there are other successful businesses in that genre... one of them just located on NW Expressway. Did we not even try to get them downtown? If we did, why did we fail? Was it a density issue? Perhaps we should think more urban than suburban if that is the case!

How about an art house movie theater... Alamo Drafthouse is one of the most successful in our region and they don't exactly compete with the traditional theaters. They are sort of different markets.

What about cool outdoor, public, structures that by their very nature just attract people? What about public art by nationally recognized artists? I'm happy we have what we have from our local artists, but why not go for a bigger draw? Why don't we have other weird entertainment options... if you go to Hollywood you see a wax museum is right there on the strip full of wacky items that revolve around movie stars. What is OKC known for? What can we leverage off of and create a story such as that that folks would want to come here and see? Why do we have nothing more than a banjo museum here that even comes close to addressing that market? That's not a knock against that museum, it's a question of why it is the only thing down there like that?

If this is your business then surely you must have more ideas than me... the answer to this question should be limitless. It's been done before in every major metropolitan area in this country... I know it has, I like them and have been to them! Fly to any one of them. Fly to all of them. Take notes. Bring them back. Let me know how many contain a Bass Pro in their urban core. Actually I already know the answer to that because I have been to BP's website and reviewed every location myself... None! This city's worst problem is that it thinks like a small town. Even when it is trying not to, if we lose focus that is exactly where we end up back at. BP is a suburban retailer. It's clear as day. The reasons you don't want that in an area that you want to become your most walkable urban area are clear as day.

3. Bass Pro locating to bricktown was in fact very strategic. When they decided to come in in 2003 Bricktown was still very young and consisted of a few restaurants and clubs, and a ball park. It is easy to sit back now and criticize how or why they are there but the fact is that there are and always have been long range visions for bricktown. Again, I certainly invite you to share your ideas if you have something concrete that you want to share.

I've gotten wordy, so you may have gotten bored with me and not seen it, but at the beginning of this post I had a lot to say about this point. Basically, explain to me what the strategy was then? If the strategy was to get people down there and that BP would do that, then please tell me how it makes sense to locate BP as far away from the rest of Bricktown (at the time)? How it makes sense to build a suburban big box with parking directly in front of it and easy access to come and go without ever having to set foot in Bricktown? How it makes sense to build one giant big box as opposed to multiple items and generate density and people walking around back and forth between them? What was the strategy? Surely that wasn't it because it makes no sense whatsoever from that standpoint. So what am I missing, what was the strategy???

[ljbab728]

I guess I"d like to know what the strategy is to start talking about I240 revitalization again.

[Questor]

Honestly the answer is the exact opposite of my Bricktown rant above. 240 is suburban... so all the 'mistakes' of Bricktown... bring them to 240. That is where they are best suited.

What would be hysterical would be if we tried to build a big mixed use walkable outdoor retail center along 240. I only mention it because it occurs to me that seems like something we would do.

[Spartan]

OK, Let me see if I have this correct. You don't like Bass Pro because they locate in tier 2 or 3 cities and small towns or suburbs? Located in MWC? You are correct about one thing: This statement SHOULD be lost on general public in OKC. It makes no sense. The overlooked fact is that Bass Pro is a tourist draw. Have you looked at the 1000's of cars parked in the lot everyday? Yes the tags are from all over. That equals sales tax dollars for Oklahoma City and is exactly why it does not belong in MWC. The fact is that Bass Pro is the busiest place in bricktown and more of our visitors to OKC go there than anywhere else. OK you don't like them and I can respect that however the are good for okc and bricktown. A wonderful addition.

It sounds to me like you would think a Wal-Mart Supercenter is a tourist draw and should also be in Bricktown.

I always park in their lot whenever I go to Thunder games, and no, they don't tow. There is no way for them to tow. Plus, that lot is part of the Lower Bricktown parking ecosystem, which means that technically all you have to do is patronize a LB business and then you're entitled to park there. There are 10-20 such businesses and there is no way for them to enforce that at the huge lots, although I have seen them enforce parking covenants at the smaller lots such as next to the Centennial. If they wanted to enforce the parking covenants for the huge lots like the Bass Pro one (which would draw huge flack from City Hall if Bass Pro became a parking racket), it would take hours to go through the line to get out as they check for LB receipts at the exits onto Reno. Talk about a nightmare strategy.

The Thunder are a huge tourist draw and belong downtown, not Bass Pro. And I see we have attracted one of the very few people who still think that Bass Pro was a good deal, which is further proof that on the Internet anyone can say anything and doesn't have to know what they're talking about in order to demand to be taken seriously.

[Larry OKC]

Walmart hardly lets other retail flourish, they usually kill off small businesses when they move in, most of the flourishing retail areas with a Walmart among them were a destination shopping location or smaller cities main shopping area before the Walmart got there.

Look at Memorial Road & Penn and all the retail that sprang up after the WalMart Super center moved in...yeah there was some along there with Quail Springs mall but once the Wal-mart went in it just exploded...even caused Target to build a Supercenter

Course the danger is that Walmart likes to move around...ove rin Norman they were on one side of I-35 on main street, then moved across the highway on the other side of Sooner Fashion Mall, then back on the other side of I-35 on the frontage road.

They did similar things here in the City. Had a store at Rockwell & NW Expressway (current Hobby Lobby), moved it to just east of MacArthur (currently a GattiTown) and then split that one up into 2 Supercenters on opposite ends of NW Expressway. Sometimes it makes a huge difference where it is at because that small move they made may have changed what city they were located in. If you are a Bethany or Warr Acres, you may be taking a huge hit to your sales tax base, where OKC can take that in stride more readily.

[Larry OKC]

2. You Say that the city should have thought bigger. How? What do you want ...a mall there? The fact is that there is a group that is focused on bringing more retail to bricktown. If you have leads or ideas on the "big ones", then throw them out here. We are very interested. I am also very involved in bringing businesses to the city and have been doing it for over 15 years. Bricktown has entertainment and dining. We need more retail to round it out. We would love just focus on the big projects but have to look at all projects. I also see the reports of the convention group surveys which indicate that visitors do shop in bricktown especially Bass Pro.

Doesn't that beg the question, are the convention group visitors shopping at Bass Pro with the intent purpose of doing so or because that is one of the view retail options within the convention center area? Or is it just a happy coincidence, they are shopping there only because it is there? That is why I thought the perfect place for the Outlet Mall would have been in lower Bricktown or even as a southern anchor of Core to Shore...a variety of retail all in one location. As successful as the Outlet Mall has been, why did OKC offer incentives for them to build near the burbs?

Or to get back to the subject of the thread, why not offer incentives for the outlet mall developers to take over Crossroads Mall...the most needful area of I-240 that needs retail revitalization??

[GaryOKC6]

It sounds to me like you would think a Wal-Mart Supercenter is a tourist draw and should also be in Bricktown.

I always park in their lot whenever I go to Thunder games, and no, they don't tow. There is no way for them to tow. Plus, that lot is part of the Lower Bricktown parking ecosystem, which means that technically all you have to do is patronize a LB business and then you're entitled to park there. There are 10-20 such businesses and there is no way for them to enforce that at the huge lots, although I have seen them enforce parking covenants at the smaller lots such as next to the Centennial. If they wanted to enforce the parking covenants for the huge lots like the Bass Pro one (which would draw huge flack from City Hall if Bass Pro became a parking racket), it would take hours to go through the line to get out as they check for LB receipts at the exits onto Reno. Talk about a nightmare strategy.

The Thunder are a huge tourist draw and belong downtown, not Bass Pro. And I see we have attracted one of the very few people who still think that Bass Pro was a good deal, which is further proof that on the Internet anyone can say anything and doesn't have to know what they're talking about in order to demand to be taken seriously.

You could not be farther from being wrong and I never mentioned walmart. You created that. You have an obvious problem with MAPS, Bricktown and I am sure that the rest will come out. I have my facts. You on the other hand are the okc enthuiast who is NEVER enthusiatic.

[Spartan]

Yeah, I have an obvious problem with MAPS and Bricktown because I'm still fuming about the Bass Pro deal....DaRN THoSE REDNecKS IN TheiR LOfTz aND CoOL BuILDInGS!!

[jn1780]

Doesn't that beg the question, are the convention group visitors shopping at Bass Pro with the intent purpose of doing so or because that is one of the view retail options within the convention center area? Or is it just a happy coincidence, they are shopping there only because it is there? That is why I thought the perfect place for the Outlet Mall would have been in lower Bricktown or even as a southern anchor of Core to Shore...a variety of retail all in one location. As successful as the Outlet Mall has been, why did OKC offer incentives for them to build near the burbs?

Or to get back to the subject of the thread, why not offer incentives for the outlet mall developers to take over Crossroads Mall...the most needful area of I-240 that needs retail revitalization??

I believe that is the case nowadays and BP depends on BT bringing them business rather than it being the other way around. Maybe when Bricktown didn't have as many draws and Bass Pro didn't build stores all over the place and lower their uniqueness did they actually draw in more people than other attractions in Bricktown.

I have never seen a car get towed from the Bass Pro parking lot. They don't really put any effort at preventing people parking there.

[Lindsay Architect]

Just a thought...if one could turn back time and Bass Pro (very SUB-urban?) located to an established suburban area like crossroads, and something as popular as The Warren followed, how would the area look today? It seems like a better place for Bass Pro or Cabelas or something, if you had those as 'anchors' and could remove all of the run-down strip malls facing I-35 traffic, the mall would be visable again and something would survive. The area will never compete with the Penn Square area for the same type of retail, but would be a great Redneck Mecca, maybe J.R.'s could resurface in the food court... Moore has re-sprawled with horribly unplanned developments stacked on top of each other - that you can barely get to without waiting on 5 stop lights once you exit the poorly planned off-ramps, 240 should have moore potetial than Moore.

[Lindsay Architect]

Questor..... didn't mean to repeat your thought on Bass Pro, I just now went back and more clearly read your post.

[Snowman]

Just a thought...if one could turn back time and Bass Pro (very SUB-urban?) located to an established suburban area like crossroads, and something as popular as The Warren followed, how would the area look today? It seems like a better place for Bass Pro or Cabelas or something, if you had those as 'anchors' and could remove all of the run-down strip malls facing I-35 traffic, the mall would be visable again and something would survive. The area will never compete with the Penn Square area for the same type of retail, but would be a great Redneck Mecca, maybe J.R.'s could resurface in the food court... Moore has re-sprawled with horribly unplanned developments stacked on top of each other - that you can barely get to without waiting on 5 stop lights once you exit the poorly planned off-ramps, 240 should have moore potetial than Moore.

It likely would have taken more money to get Bass Pro to go in near Crossroads, while I don't think what we game them was worth it, what we gave them was still about 10 million less than the average incentive package they have gotten over the last ten years to build a store. It being downtown was probably why it got as much money from the city as it did, near Quail Springs Mall would probably be the only other place I would would expect them to prefer and have space to build easily.

[rcjunkie]

It likely would have taken more money to get Bass Pro to go in near Crossroads, while I don't think what we game them was worth it, what we gave them was still about 10 million less than the average incentive package they have gotten over the last ten years to build a store. It being downtown was probably why it got as much money from the city as it did, near Quail Springs Mall would probably be the only other place I would would expect them to prefer and have space to build easily.

During negotiations with Bass Pro, they were given a list of 5 locations. They were intent on building in Bricktown, they wouldn't even consider the other 4 locations.

[jn1780]

Just a thought...if one could turn back time and Bass Pro (very SUB-urban?) located to an established suburban area like crossroads, and something as popular as The Warren followed, how would the area look today? It seems like a better place for Bass Pro or Cabelas or something, if you had those as 'anchors' and could remove all of the run-down strip malls facing I-35 traffic, the mall would be visable again and something would survive. The area will never compete with the Penn Square area for the same type of retail, but would be a great Redneck Mecca, maybe J.R.'s could resurface in the food court... Moore has re-sprawled with horribly unplanned developments stacked on top of each other - that you can barely get to without waiting on 5 stop lights once you exit the poorly planned off-ramps, 240 should have moore potetial than Moore.

I don't really see what makes I-240 that much different than I-35 other than having less traffic because the area is dead compared to 19th St. If the sprawl actually developed along I-240 it would be just as bad I-35.

The problem is that it is difficult to equally distribute the wealth across a city based on suburban sprawl. There are two types of wealthy people. Those who like to build a new house way out Suburbs on untouched land and those who like to buy places deep in the urban core. Neither wants to move into the middle layer of that suburban sprawl. The large retailers simply follow the money, bad planning or not.

I can almost guarantee you that the "locusts" will spread somewhere along I-44 between 89th and 149th streets leaving I-240 double screwed. Just watch and see. I give it less than 5 years. Well, their already planning on developing the airport area. Not sure what kind of businesses their hoping to attract there.

[Larry OKC]

During negotiations with Bass Pro, they were given a list of 5 locations. They were intent on building in Bricktown, they wouldn't even consider the other 4 locations.

What were the other 4 locations?

[ljbab728]

An update:

http://newsok.com/oklahoma-citys-int...rticle/3665876

[proud2Bsooner]

This thread...oh this thread!

The main problem with I240 is the apartments. If they could raze the ones between Western and Penn (south side of 240), and all the garbage at May (north and south sides), the area would stand a chance. All of these apartments have high levels of violent crime. The first set I mentioned are owned by a Pakistani dude from Cali that bought them up during the real estate bubble because he thought they were so cheap, by Cali standards. He has no interest in the area, and it would take someone with big dough and an even bigger vision to do something about these eyesores.

I'm not sure why Hump is on this committee. I guess he gives the committee name recognition. He's more well-known for attaching himself to the City teet, than coming up with solutions that don't necessarily benefit him. Gosh, I hope I haven't started another thread tangent! The subject is I240, and I have have my doubts about the insight this committee (or whatever they call it) could provide.

[Snowman]

This thread...oh this thread!

The main problem with I240 is the apartments. If they could raze the ones between Western and Penn (south side of 240), and all the garbage at May (north and south sides), the area would stand a chance. All of these apartments have high levels of violent crime. The first set I mentioned are owned by a Pakistani dude from Cali that bought them up during the real estate bubble because he thought they were so cheap, by Cali standards. He has no interest in the area, and it would take someone with big dough and an even bigger vision to do something about these eyesores.

I'm not sure why Hump is on this committee. I guess he gives the committee name recognition. He's more well-known for attaching himself to the City teet, than coming up with solutions that don't necessarily benefit him. Gosh, I hope I haven't started another thread tangent! The subject is I240, and I have have my doubts about the insight this committee (or whatever they call it) could provide.

Razing the apartments would just shifts the problem elsewhere in the city.

[oneforone]

Razing the apartments would just shifts the problem elsewhere in the city.

Yeah, the last thing we want is Southside to prosper. Every city has to have a ghetto it might as well be South OKC.

Save the good developments for places like Bricktown, Penn Square and Memorial where they whitewash over things like gang shootings, robbery, kidnapping and sexual assault that all happen in public in broad daylight.

[Tavia]

They could start by mowing on each side of I-240. It has never been maintained well...always looks awful.

[mmonroe]

I use to work at 104th and Western but lived in MWC, every day, without fail, on my way home, there was always a wreck on 240 just before the I35 interchange. That stretch of highway is dangerous.

Disclaimer: I don't know what my post has to do with this thread, just adding it in.

[kevinpate]

I can't speak on all the apartments and townhomes along that stretch of 240, but when I worked in south OKC a while back, one of our new hires lived in a place along there. It looked nicer than the others from the highway and frontage road, and even up close from the outside. However, it was truly a terrible place, structurally and mechanically. He hated it, but he stayed because he felt the rent was cheap (wasn't for what what he endured in my opinion) and having cheap to him rent made it easier to cover the nut on the way too much car for his pay grade that he drove.

[SoonerBoy18]

I drove on I 240 numerous times and the road surface was very smooth, and there are lots of buisness along the highway, can somebody explain exactly WHY odot wants to waste money on this project instead repairing portions of i-44 by Penn Square mall. Its much busier than I-240 and the roads are in serious need of repair. That part of OKC needs the revitalization because it just looks too ghetto, in my opinion.