Living wage and/or minimum wage

[bamarsha]

The Irony of using the phrase, "You get what you pay for," while then giving the starting wage at $10 an hour in today's economy.

Where exactly is the irony?

While I do not own a fast food restaurant, so I haven't done all the research required to run said business. However, I am assuming (based on one of the first posts in this thread) that the average fast food pay is $11.64. If you are hiring at $10/hr, the better employees will go across the street to the place starting at $12/hr... you will get the leftovers (likely not the same quality, but there's a chance). The $10/hr person develops skill by working there, they can then go across the street and start making that $12/hr or more, since they now have more skills. Or maybe they are a great employee with demonstrated skills and hit up CFA for $15/hr or so. If the employee isn't good or is lazy, those other places won't hire them and they likely won't earn an increase. Thus getting what you pay for (pay bad, get bad or pay good, get good)... don't see the irony, just facts.

[Ginkasa]

Having a house is a luxury (I did not say housing). I lived in a apartment for many years of my adult life, until I was to the point in which I could buy one. Cars are not fully necessary, as you can get much cheaper transportation (bus, motorcycle, bike, etc.)... but even if you got a car, you don't have to have a brand new one or one that looks awesome. I clarified myself above regarding the cell phone... you may need one, just not a brand new one, every 2 years . Houses, new cars, new cells.. those ARE luxuries... you don't NEED any of that... those are WANTS. Those luxuries shouldn't be given to you, but you should earn them.

And while I am clarifying... when I say hard work, I am not referring to physical labor, type of hard work... I am talking about being on time, being reliable, doing what you are supposed to be doing, getting thing your task complete, developing new skills, being a benefit to the company, etc. If your company doesn't reward you for your hard work, there are plenty of others out there that will. Maybe after your shift, hit up a library to learn more skills. There are many ways to improve yourself than just hoping for the best. (And to further clarify, "you" in this context doesn't mean you personally, but a generic you.)

You're being disingenuous. I'll give you the house v housing distinction (although there's probably another discussion in there), but you didn't qualify the car and the phone. You said "Plus, entry level fast food jobs are not supposed provide enough money for a house, a car, cell phones, and all sorts of other luxuries." If you meant to say "Plus, entry level fast food jobs are not supposed provide enough money for a house, a brand new car with all the add-ons, top of the line cell phones every two years, and all sorts of other luxuries." then I'll take your word for it, but that's not what you actually said.

You sidestepped everything else I said. If a person is riding the bus and having to work multiple "entry level fast food jobs" that aren't paying them enough to survive, they don't have time to "go to the library and learn a skill". And dollars to donuts they are "working hard" in both the "expending a lot of physical and mental effort to do the actual tasks required of them" sense and the "being on time, etc." sense you said. But if the bus breaks down and they're late for no fault of their own, they get fired because the boss cares more about flaunting his superiority and giving platitudes about hard work than understanding reality or, heaven forbid, having a sense of human compassion. So now our worker is desperately looking for any work she can get because if she misses rent she's out on her butt.

Its not impossible to do the things you say so long as you've got some semblance of security and consistency. But if you're spending all of your time and energy just trying to scrape by you don't have the bandwidth to pull yourself up by your bootstraps and "learn a skill". Making the minimum wage a livable wage and keeping it there ensures that anyone, no matter their background, have a chance at all the things you said. Anything else is judging people for their circumstances and tooting your own horn for having opportunities that they might not have.

[fortpatches]

I just checked my Social Security Earnings Records and in 1978 when I bought the house I made 15560 that year. So I probably made a bit more than the 5.50 and/or worked a little overtime too. It was a union hourly job that paid time and 1/2 for overtime. The house was 35K and I borrowed 31K on a 30 year loan My house payments were around $290/mo with taxes and insurance to start out if I recall. I was able to do it. I was also still single with no kids. Didn't get married until age 36.
I should add that was October 1976 when I started that job and May 1978 when I bought the house.

And I have always used hourly wage times 2080 hrs to figure yearly income.

So the equivalent in today's money would be about $76k (above the median household income in OKC by about $10k) buying a $171k house buy borrowing $151k.

Looking at Zillow:
There are only 153 houses in OKC at or below $175k.
There are 1,546 houses for sale in OKC.

So, less than 10% of the homes for sale would be in that price range.

[gjl]

I was being honest. I appreciate your input on this topic. Sorry if it came across snarky.

Understand I chose to have material things over having a wife and kids at a young age so I was able to pull it off on that income. A living wage has a lot to do with life choices you make.

[OkieBerto]

Understand I chose to have material things over having a wife and kids at a young age so I was able to pull it off on that income. A living wage has a lot to do with life choices you make.

I am 44 years old, never had kids and never married, yet. I totally understand where you are coming from.

[gjl]

So the equivalent in today's money would be about $76k (above the median household income in OKC by about $10k) buying a $171k house buy borrowing $151k.

Looking at Zillow:
There are only 153 houses in OKC at or below $175k.
There are 1,546 houses for sale in OKC.

So, less than 10% of the homes for sale would be in that price range.

Factor in my 9.5% mortgage I had which was the norm back them. Heck, the house I bought in 1996 on a 15 year loan which always has a lower interest was at 7 1/8% The lower interest rates of late have spoiled home buyers. That 9.5 or 7 1/8 didn't keep me out of the market when I wanted a house.

[OkieBerto]

You're being disingenuous. I'll give you the house v housing distinction (although there's probably another discussion in there), but you didn't qualify the car and the phone. You said "Plus, entry level fast food jobs are not supposed provide enough money for a house, a car, cell phones, and all sorts of other luxuries." If you meant to say "Plus, entry level fast food jobs are not supposed provide enough money for a house, a brand new car with all the add-ons, top of the line cell phones every two years, and all sorts of other luxuries." then I'll take your word for it, but that's not what you actually said.

You sidestepped everything else I said. If a person is riding the bus and having to work multiple "entry level fast food jobs" that aren't paying them enough to survive, they don't have time to "go to the library and learn a skill". And dollars to donuts they are "working hard" in both the "expending a lot of physical and mental effort to do the actual tasks required of them" sense and the "being on time, etc." sense you said. But if the bus breaks down and they're late for no fault of their own, they get fired because the boss cares more about flaunting his superiority and giving platitudes about hard work than understanding reality or, heaven forbid, having a sense of human compassion. So now our worker is desperately looking for any work she can get because if she misses rent she's out on her butt.

Its not impossible to do the things you say so long as you've got some semblance of security and consistency. But if you're spending all of your time and energy just trying to scrape by you don't have the bandwidth to pull yourself up by your bootstraps and "learn a skill". Making the minimum wage a livable wage and keeping it there ensures that anyone, no matter their background, have a chance at all the things you said. Anything else is judging people for their circumstances and tooting your own horn for having opportunities that they might not have.

Well Said!!!

[bamarsha]

FDR signed the FLSA in 1938, setting the minimum wage at $0.25/hr effective October 24, 1938. As pointed out, this was also to create a minimum standard of living. Adjusted to July 2024 dollars, the minimum wage SHOULD BE $5.62/hr based on the government’s own CPI Inflation Calculator.

This indicates that even the $7.25 is more than enough to supply an individual with a minimum standard of living based on the context of the law.

Fortunately, for those that haven’t developed more than minimal skills, the free market is requiring companies to pay even more than the current federal minimum wage. In fact, most are paying double or triple the inflation adjusted minimum standard of living set into law.

Note: these aren’t my numbers, they are actual government data.

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/min.../history/chart
https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc...0&year2=202407

[OkieBerto]

FDR signed the FLSA in 1938, setting the minimum wage at $0.25/hr effective October 24, 1938. As pointed out, this was also to create a minimum standard of living. Adjusted to July 2024 dollars, the minimum wage SHOULD BE $5.62/hr based on the government’s own CPI Inflation Calculator.

This indicates that even the $7.25 is more than enough to supply an individual with a minimum standard of living based on the context of the law.

Fortunately, for those that haven’t developed more than minimal skills, the free market is requiring companies to pay even more than the current federal minimum wage. In fact, most are paying double or triple the inflation adjusted minimum standard of living set into law.

Note: these aren’t my numbers, they are actual government data.

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/min.../history/chart
https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc...0&year2=202407

Your government data seems to believe that the minimum standard of living is well below the poverty line in the US, based on government data.

[bamarsha]

You're being disingenuous. I'll give you the house v housing distinction (although there's probably another discussion in there), but you didn't qualify the car and the phone. You said "Plus, entry level fast food jobs are not supposed provide enough money for a house, a car, cell phones, and all sorts of other luxuries." If you meant to say "Plus, entry level fast food jobs are not supposed provide enough money for a house, a brand new car with all the add-ons, top of the line cell phones every two years, and all sorts of other luxuries." then I'll take your word for it, but that's not what you actually said.

You sidestepped everything else I said. If a person is riding the bus and having to work multiple "entry level fast food jobs" that aren't paying them enough to survive, they don't have time to "go to the library and learn a skill". And dollars to donuts they are "working hard" in both the "expending a lot of physical and mental effort to do the actual tasks required of them" sense and the "being on time, etc." sense you said. But if the bus breaks down and they're late for no fault of their own, they get fired because the boss cares more about flaunting his superiority and giving platitudes about hard work than understanding reality or, heaven forbid, having a sense of human compassion. So now our worker is desperately looking for any work she can get because if she misses rent she's out on her butt.

Its not impossible to do the things you say so long as you've got some semblance of security and consistency. But if you're spending all of your time and energy just trying to scrape by you don't have the bandwidth to pull yourself up by your bootstraps and "learn a skill". Making the minimum wage a livable wage and keeping it there ensures that anyone, no matter their background, have a chance at all the things you said. Anything else is judging people for their circumstances and tooting your own horn for having opportunities that they might not have.

No, I don’t think I am. A cheap apartment will work over a house, a moped would work over a car (or even a bicycle or motorcycle), if you don’t want the bus. I already admitted the phone could have been state better originally.

There are 168 hours in a week. Say you work 40 of them (5 8-hour days), 5 hours to get to/from work (assume 30 min each direction), and sleep 7 hours/day… I’ll even give you 2 hours / day to eat (30 min breakfast and lunch and 1 hour dinner). That leaves 60 hours per week (36%) that you CHOOSE what to do with. You can even get a 2nd job with that much time left.

This is America… everyone that want a chance, has a chance, they just have to make good choices. Maybe I should “toot my own horn” for not doing drugs and knocking up someone at the age of 15 or whatever. Those choices worked for me… and many, many other people. You just have to want to succeed.

[bamarsha]

Your government data seems to believe that the minimum standard of living is well below the poverty line in the US, based on government data.

Just another reason to keep the government out of industry...

[Dob Hooligan]

From my experience, a more and more companies are paying way more than 15.00 to get the talent level they want. I think people should get a livable wage, but they are also responsible for earing it too. I worked my way through college in the late 70's on 3.00 an hour working in a hot greasy factory. That alone motivated me to work harder to get ahead. My friends were all out having fun in the evenings, and I was studying. It took me longer but I kept my eye on the prize. I have 4 daughters and have always pushed them to be the best they can be. It starts with work ethic. Two of them bought a house while working as a server. Both have moved on to other career paths and neither graduated college. They did it by showing up every day on time, working hard and going above and beyond. My point is that anybody can make a good living if they are willing to put in the work.

Have you done a calculation of what $3.00 in your part of the 1970s equals today? It is over $15.00

[Dob Hooligan]

No, I don’t think I am. A cheap apartment will work over a house, a moped would work over a car (or even a bicycle or motorcycle), if you don’t want the bus. I already admitted the phone could have been state better originally.

There are 168 hours in a week. Say you work 40 of them (5 8-hour days), 5 hours to get to/from work (assume 30 min each direction), and sleep 7 hours/day… I’ll even give you 2 hours / day to eat (30 min breakfast and lunch and 1 hour dinner). That leaves 60 hours per week (36%) that you CHOOSE what to do with. You can even get a 2nd job with that much time left.

This is America… everyone that want a chance, has a chance, they just have to make good choices. Maybe I should “toot my own horn” for not doing drugs and knocking up someone at the age of 15 or whatever. Those choices worked for me… and many, many other people. You just have to want to succeed.

When I was in high school back in the mid 70s in OKC, our starting quarterback got a cheerleader pregnant and married her. Our star halfback did the same. One couple did better in life than the other. Both couples were white, but one couple had a husband that came from legacy oil & gas money, while the wife came from a successful surgeon's family.

[Ginkasa]

No, I don’t think I am. A cheap apartment will work over a house, a moped would work over a car (or even a bicycle or motorcycle), if you don’t want the bus. I already admitted the phone could have been state better originally.

There are 168 hours in a week. Say you work 40 of them (5 8-hour days), 5 hours to get to/from work (assume 30 min each direction), and sleep 7 hours/day… I’ll even give you 2 hours / day to eat (30 min breakfast and lunch and 1 hour dinner). That leaves 60 hours per week (36%) that you CHOOSE what to do with. You can even get a 2nd job with that much time left.

This is America… everyone that want a chance, has a chance, they just have to make good choices. Maybe I should “toot my own horn” for not doing drugs and knocking up someone at the age of 15 or whatever. Those choices worked for me… and many, many other people. You just have to want to succeed.

The reality is we don't all start at the same place. Dob Hooligan provided a good example. Even in your stereotype of someone doing drugs and/or being involved in a teen pregnancy, that's not an even stage. Education is a big piece of that and how good your education is at a young age is going to depend on your zip code which has a lot of factors into it. That kind of thing is generational so you're at the whims of your parentage more than you'd like to admit. Even if someone wants to make the right choices they aren't necessarily provided the same opportunities as someone else.

Maybe they got pulled out of school to take care of their siblings. Maybe for one reason or another they're thrown into the system, just a number with no really to support and love them. That makes a difference.

I don't know you. Maybe you came from a bad environment and fought your way out and made somebody of yourself like a Real American. Maybe not. I don't know. I know I'm doing alright. I have a house. I have a car. I have a cell phone. I have a family. Yeah, I worked hard. I won't hear anyone tell me I haven't earned what I have. But I'm also self aware enough to know that I've had some privileges that others aren't afforded. I've benefited from coming from a (relatively) stable home with parents who wanted the best for me. Not everyone gets that.

I'll end with this: you're talking about luxuries. Let's agree on this: people shouldn't be able to live a life of luxury on minimum wage. However, let me clear: nobody here or elsewhere is advocating for a higher minimum wage so "entry level fast food" workers can cruise around with their Rolls Royce up to their Beverly Hills mansion while talking on their hot new iPhone. Taking the hyperbole out of it, nobody's advocating for them to be able to buy a new car or home or the latest phone. But the fact is that if someone is working full time at a minimum wage job, or multiple minimum wage jobs, or even at this point making a fair deal over minimum wage, they are struggling. They are struggling in a way that you can't just American Way you're way out of. And we're just saying those folks deserve a chance to be able to chase a better life without being derailed by one medical issue, or one too expensive car repair on their junker, or a late bus, or whatever regular every day occurrence that absolutely can wreck a person's dreams when you're at the wage level without a safety net.

[Jeepnokc]

So minimum wage?

Or maybe the least amount that I can pay to get the quality of employee I wanted which this market requires more than minimum wage

[Mr. Blue Sky]

FDR signed the FLSA in 1938, setting the minimum wage at $0.25/hr effective October 24, 1938. As pointed out, this was also to create a minimum standard of living. Adjusted to July 2024 dollars, the minimum wage SHOULD BE $5.62/hr based on the government’s own CPI Inflation Calculator.

This indicates that even the $7.25 is more than enough to supply an individual with a minimum standard of living based on the context of the law.

Fortunately, for those that haven’t developed more than minimal skills, the free market is requiring companies to pay even more than the current federal minimum wage. In fact, most are paying double or triple the inflation adjusted minimum standard of living set into law.

Note: these aren’t my numbers, they are actual government data.

https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/min.../history/chart
https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc...0&year2=202407

The only way to calculate what minimum wage was worth from, say, 1975 to present is what the dollar-for-dollar purchasing power was in 1975 and 2024. $1 CPI vs $1 wage. Here is that data, complete with all the charts, etc..
https://www.officialdata.org/us/infl...1975?amount=10

[Mr. Blue Sky]

From my experience, a more and more companies are paying way more than 15.00 to get the talent level they want. I think people should get a livable wage, but they are also responsible for earing it too. I worked my way through college in the late 70's on 3.00 an hour working in a hot greasy factory. That alone motivated me to work harder to get ahead. My friends were all out having fun in the evenings, and I was studying. It took me longer but I kept my eye on the prize. I have 4 daughters and have always pushed them to be the best they can be. It starts with work ethic. Two of them bought a house while working as a server. Both have moved on to other career paths and neither graduated college. They did it by showing up every day on time, working hard and going above and beyond. My point is that anybody can make a good living if they are willing to put in the work.

That $3 in 1975 equates to $17 today.
https://www.officialdata.org/us/inflation/1975?amount=3

[BoulderSooner]

The reality is we don't all start at the same place. Dob Hooligan provided a good example. Even in your stereotype of someone doing drugs and/or being involved in a teen pregnancy, that's not an even stage. Education is a big piece of that and how good your education is at a young age is going to depend on your zip code which has a lot of factors into it. That kind of thing is generational so you're at the whims of your parentage more than you'd like to admit. Even if someone wants to make the right choices they aren't necessarily provided the same opportunities as someone else.
.

the reality is that irrespective of circumstance ... if you graduate high school don't have a kid out side of marriage and don't get married until after 21 the Poverty rate is effectively ZERO

[bamarsha]

The only way to calculate what minimum wage was worth from, say, 1975 to present is what the dollar-for-dollar purchasing power was in 1975 and 2024. $1 CPI vs $1 wage. Here is that data, complete with all the charts, etc..
https://www.officialdata.org/us/infl...1975?amount=10

Thanks for the confirmation (and non-governmental source). Our sources agree (other than your source only went by year and mine went by year and month)... $0.25 in 1398 is equivalent to $5.62 (mine) or $5.58 (yours).

[Anonymous.]

What do you all think of the future of work with low-wage jobs being replaced by AI/Robotics? Where do all the fastfood, warehouse, data entry workers go for work then?

I think it is very possible that many humans will need a replacement for work within our lifetime.

[bamarsha]

The reality is we don't all start at the same place. Dob Hooligan provided a good example.

Reality is whatever you make it. Dr. Ben Carson started at the very bottom, but because a world renowned surgeon. Not everyone is capable of becoming a doctor. But there are many alternatives that can provide a suitable life, many trade jobs (plumber, electrician, painter, welder, etc.). The one thing that holds true, you can't do the bare minimum or less and expect to live in the middle or upper class without being lucky (born good looking and marrying a rich person, for example).

And yes, things make a difference, but it still comes down to personal choice and what you make out of your situation. Some have it easy while some have it hard. But just about everyone can succeed if they really want to, at least in America. In 2023, the government spent over $1 TRILLION on government assistance (welfare programs) to help those that have unexpected (or expected) setback that you mentioned.

[OkieBerto]

Or maybe the least amount that I can pay to get the quality of employee I wanted which this market requires more than minimum wage

I was just trying to make a point to the original poster. There is only a minimum wage because plenty of people like the poster would rather pay the least amount even if that means they aren't competitive in the market.

I see nothing wrong with find the best way to pay your employees based on your business model and the market you exist in. If there is a minimum amount that can save you money, so be it.

[Rover]

Just another reason to keep the government out of industry...

Yes, history shows that industry is so fair with their workers.

People need to quit ignoring that history doesn't show industry will just do the right thing. Lets just then assume we need no laws or police either. Im sure everyone will just behave. No government regulation and no laws. That will work out great.

[OkieBerto]

Yes, history shows that industry is so fair with their workers.

People need to quit ignoring that history doesn't show industry will just do the right thing. Lets just then assume we need no laws or police either. Im sure everyone will just behave. No government regulation and no laws. That will work out great.

I am glad someone else responded to this. My brain hurts reading these comments.

[jedicurt]

Yes, history shows that industry is so fair with their workers.

People need to quit ignoring that history doesn't show industry will just do the right thing. Lets just then assume we need no laws or police either. Im sure everyone will just behave. No government regulation and no laws. That will work out great.

exactly this... i am looked at as a bad worker, because i leave a job after 12 years and only getting 2-3% raises, minus two 5% raises when i got promotions. but when i was leaving, they offered to match me 72% increase i was going to get from somewhere else. if the industry actually showed the level of support and loyalty to their employees that the expect back in return, then things would be much different.