Dishonest Marketing by the University of Oklahoma

[Swake]

Yes, it's all a grand scheme to avoid taking good students and specifically your daughter.


They simply have their own criteria for awarding scholarships, as do all schools. If they chose to place a higher value on National Merit Scholars, that's their prerogative and a strategy that has a clear value, otherwise they wouldn't be doing it.

You misunderstand, this isn’t about my daughter and her wanting to be at OU, this is about how comparative schools encourage competitive students to attend. OU only wants good students as a tick mark they can place on a press release, that’s why all they are interested in are National Merit Scholars. My daughter never really wanted to go to OU but she did the standard thing where she applied to schools that were a reach for her to get in, a couple of good schools, but ones that she was pretty sure she would be accepted to, and for safety schools she applied to TU and OU.

She actually was accepted to a reach school and is going there, and got into all the schools in her middle range and all with good scholarship money. Her worst scholarship offer by far was shockingly from one of her “safety schools”. With where she was accepted she wouldn’t go to OU for any amount of money. But OU was the least generous.

The Forbes and US News rankings are not great, but to compare, she got into the highest ranked school she applied to, ranked in the top five, but was rejected by schools ranking #7 and #9. She was accepted by two other schools in the 40-50 ranking range and then TU at 86 and OU at 101.

Her worst scholarship offer by far was from OU at 101.

[Pete]

I didn't misunderstand, I am merely challenging your logic.

Schools have different priorities and strategies which is not at all the same thing as claiming they don't care about the quality of the students.

[Swake]

I didn't misunderstand, I am merely challenging your logic.

Schools have different priorities and strategies which is not at all the same thing as claiming they don't care about the quality of the students.

If the number one driver of scholarship money at your school is a single standardized test taken once only midway through a student’s sophomore year of high school maybe you aren’t really interested in good students as much as you are the awards given from that test.

[onthestrip]

Yes, it's all a grand scheme to avoid taking good students and specifically your daughter.


They simply have their own criteria for awarding scholarships, as do all schools. If they chose to place a higher value on National Merit Scholars, that's their prerogative and a strategy that has a clear value, otherwise they wouldn't be doing it.

Clear value is debatable. Texas did away with their massive scholarship money for National Merit students several years ago because they thought that money was better used elsewhere.

[Pete]

Clear value is debatable. Texas did away with their massive scholarship money for National Merit students several years ago because they thought that money was better used elsewhere.

OU obviously feels -- for them -- the program is a good use of resources otherwise they wouldn't be doing it.

[LandRunOkie]

The best improvement they could make is increasing scholarships in the physical sciences, engineering, and technology. Many of these academic scholarships leave the field of study open to the student and impose a rather rigid GPA requirement. Given the shortage of scientists and their multiplier effect on the broader economy, OU should prioritize drastic increases in STEM scholarships. Its never going to be a great place to study the humanities, so why let students waste their talent and scholarship money on these less valuable fields of study? Regardless, college affordability is an issue that has to be discussed more often than the twice a year bursar's statements get sent out to make actual progress.

[Swake]

OU obviously feels -- for them -- the program is a good use of resources otherwise they wouldn't be doing it.

Of course that's true. The question you need to ask, what I have answered, is WHY they feel it's a good use of resources.

[Rover]

Clear value is debatable. Texas did away with their massive scholarship money for National Merit students several years ago because they thought that money was better used elsewhere.

OU needed to try to build up their academic image while UT is already established as a top tier school. Their marketing and strategic objectives are completely different. OU needed to add more academically accomplished students into the mix and elevate the standards. UT is already attracting them. Plus, UT has huge income that OU doesn't have and they just have more options.

[Pete]

Of course that's true. The question you need to ask, what I have answered, is WHY they feel it's a good use of resources.

I don't need to ask any questions.

I merely trust a Rhodes scholar and former U.S. Senator who lives and breathes these issues and has far more knowledge, concern and personal investment than anyone else.

The strides the university has made under his leadership are very impressive and following the school as closely as I do, I believe even greater things are soon to come.

[FighttheGoodFight]

This has all been very interesting to read. I work at OU so I guess that makes Boren my boss?

I still believe OU is a great value if you want to get certain degrees but I think students really need to look at cost and make a decision on what school to go. UCO is a great alternative for a cheaper degree but still a good accredited college.

The only thing I really worry about is more of these for-profit higher education places popping up. Things like University of Phoenix where they pray on lower income people to spend a lot of loans for a terrible degree.

I also agree with many on here about having a class in high school as an elective for personal finance and maybe one for college prep. Could help students get an understanding of how much they are going to pay.

I was thankful for my mother who told me that she couldn't help my pay for college but helped me get a grasp on what the final amount would be if I went. I got a few scholarships, worked and took out a bit of federal loans. End the end I never accrued interest on my loans as I paid them before the six months was over after I graduated. It can be done but you have to get a degree in a field that has jobs and start working on internships and a resume. Many students get out just fine but I do see others with 40k debt in a social work degree. It goes both ways. Sometimes the students have to be responsible.

[Pete]

I really want to see this new documentary called Ivory Tower:

Ivory Tower | TakePart

Take a look at that website for all types of information on the subject of value in higher education.

As tuition rates spiral beyond reach and student loan debt passes $1 trillion (more than credit card debt), IVORY TOWER asks: Is college worth the cost? From the halls of Harvard, to public colleges in financial crisis, to Silicon Valley, filmmaker Andrew Rossi (PAGE ONE: INSIDE THE NEW YORK TIMES) assembles an urgent portrait of a great American institution at the breaking point.

Through profiles at Arizona State, Cooper Union, and San Jose State —among several others—IVORY TOWER reveals how colleges in the United States, long regarded as leaders in higher education, came to embrace a business model that often promotes expansion over quality learning. But along the way we also find unique programs, from Stanford to the free desert school Deep Springs to the historically black all women’s college Spelman, where the potential for life-changing college experiences endure. Ultimately, IVORY TOWER asks, What price will society pay if higher education cannot revolutionize college as we know it and evolve a sustainable economic model?

[Pete]

BTW, if you are at all interested in journalism, I highly recommend another documentary by the same film maker, called Page One: Inside the New York Times.

It's on Netflix.

[LandRunOkie]

I don't need to ask any questions. I merely trust a Rhodes scholar and former U.S. Senator who lives and breathes these issues and has far more knowledge, concern and personal investment than anyone else.

People should think about what exactly a university president's credentials have to do with college affordability. There may not actually be any relationship. Brownwood makes a good point about OU dramatically understating the cost of attendance by advertising one tuition price and then fooling people on the backend with fees. This is a calculated decision by Boren to sell the product while undermining the credibility of the institution; Serious universities would blush at such shell games.

[Rover]

I think there is a substantial amount of Okies who want a cheap watered down public institution that admits all that apply and graduates everyone. That way they can get a pseudo degree and pretend we have a highly educated public. Cheap, quick, all inclusive.......and worthless.

[Pete]

This is a calculated decision by Boren to sell the product while undermining the credibility of the institution; Serious universities would blush at such shell games.

My own research yields the following:

University of Oklahoma total cost for in-state undergrad: $18,481.50
University of Texas total cost for in-state undergrad: $25,704 – 27,096

Also, when I mentioned that OU was just about the least expensive of all top 50 public universities, that was based on tuition AND fees.


The bottom line is that for the quality of education, OU is a great bargain, even with the recent -- and necessary -- increases.

[Pete]

Forbes ranks OU as the #16 best value in all of American college education, and the number they quote is for tuition AND fees from 2013 (only slightly higher for 2014):

University of Oklahoma, Norman - In Photos: Top Colleges 2013: Best Value Colleges - Forbes

[Just the facts]

People should think about what exactly a university president's credentials have to do with college affordability. There may not actually be any relationship. Brownwood makes a good point about OU dramatically understating the cost of attendance by advertising one tuition price and then fooling people on the backend with fees. This is a calculated decision by Boren to sell the product while undermining the credibility of the institution; Serious universities would blush at such shell games.

Well, Boren was a politician in DC for years and that is how 'selling' has worked for him his whole adult life.

[LandRunOkie]

Estimated Costs of Attending OU

UNDERGRADUATE STUDENTS LIVING IN UNIVERSITY HOUSING
(U.S. CITIZEN & PERMANENT RESIDENT)

2013-2014 Expenses	Resident Cost	Non-resident Cost
Tuition/Fees* - 30 credit hours	$8,915.50	$21,104.50
Room & Board	$8,718.00	$8,718.00
Books	$848.00	$848.00
Total	$18,481.50	$30,670.50

The most misleading number here is that the room and board figure is for on-campus students. Almost nobody chooses to live on campus, and that's only more true now with the alcohol ban. So the number for housing they quote is $726.5/month. Does that sound realistic to you? One would be hard pressed to live in Norman for less than $1000/month. That's almost double the figure OU quotes as official if you stay over the summer.
But I'm taking it you all can't be persuaded that education is inherently valuable and thus should be provided at truly affordable prices. To me that means no loan debt for graduates. So look at it from this angle - If someone can go to trucking school for three weeks and $5000 and make $40,000/yr off the bat, why do they need college? In this case a rational person who prefers to avoid the $20,000 debt a college education brings will save his money and go to trucking school. Who benefits when an intelligent, hard working young person decides to be a trucker rather than a college grad? When Boren said he doesn't want ignorance to be our legacy, that meant something. I've never heard him use stronger language. That's essentially code for "It's time to panic". So while I'm sure the laudations make him feel good, smart people should be extremely concerned about the fact that now, it's the dumb****s who go to college, not the braniacs.

[Pete]

^

Freshman are mandated to live on campus.

And for those who wish to stay on campus as upperclassmen, there is space available.

[Rover]

So while I'm sure the laudations make him feel good, smart people should be extremely concerned about the fact that now, it's the dumb****s who go to college, not the braniacs.

No, the dumb***s are those that go to college without an idea of what their education is worth in financial terms and what they are actually going to do when they get out and then pile up debt to do it. Tragic are those that do it for sub-standard education. Thinking it is worth big debt to go to a degree factory is stupid. Maybe it is time for parents to actually sit down with their kids and help them figure out that they need to figure out what they want to do with their life and THEN decide whether or not college is right for them and WHICH college is good for them, and do this BEFORE going to college and wasting time and money.

If they are just using college to party awhile and take any class that interests them then they should probably wait, go find a job and figure out what a bad education or no education actually gets them. Save the money, save the debt.

[LandRunOkie]

I specifically addressed my post to smart people.

[RadicalModerate]

I specifically addressed my post to smart people.

Touché (a.k.a. "Too-Shay" like, fer shure, even if I may or may not agree with the entire paradigm. =)

[Just the facts]

So look at it from this angle - If someone can go to trucking school for three weeks and $5000 and make $40,000/yr off the bat, why do they need college? In this case a rational person who prefers to avoid the $20,000 debt a college education brings will save his money and go to trucking school. Who benefits when an intelligent, hard working young person decides to be a trucker rather than a college grad?

This is the exact argument the wife and I are having - and the source of some of our problems. It will cost over $150K to send our oldest son to college and then we have to hope he gets a job after that. I would prefer to open a small business for him, hire a manager that can train him to run it, and then turn it over to him in 4 years. Then do the same thing with the other son. If someone spotted me $150K to start a small business I would have gotten an AA degree at a Junior College and been on my merry way.

[zookeeper]

This is the exact argument the wife and I are having - and the source of some of our problems. It will cost over $150K to send our oldest son to college and then we have to hope he gets a job after that. I would prefer to open a small business for him, hire a manager that can train him to run it, and then turn it over to him in 4 years. Then do the same thing with the other son. If someone spotted me $150K to start a small business I would have gotten an AA degree at a Junior College and been on my merry way.

What is the purpose of an undergraduate education?

It's such a shame that everybody seems to think that education is all about job training. Universities were supposed to provide a broad-based liberal arts education to - you know - educate the student. Now you have people going to schools of higher learning who don't know the first thing about culture - the arts, literature, music, philosophy, and other intellectual pursuits. The defense of the humanities is almost a lost cause. People have accepted the redefinition of undergraduate education as a ticket to a job. Very sad. And we wonder why everything has to be dumbed down.

I LOVE this:

In a recent interview with the Sarasota Herald-Tribune, Florida's Gov. Rick Scott drew a line in the sand between college degrees that he believes would lead directly to jobs in his state and, basically, all other degrees.

"If I'm going to take money from a citizen to put into education then I'm going to take that money to create jobs," Scott said. "So I want that money to go to degrees where people can get jobs in this state. Is it a vital interest of the state to have more anthropologists? I don't think so."

The next day, Gov. Scott clarified his views further in a radio interview. "I want to spend our money getting people science, technology, engineering and math degrees. That's what our kids need to focus all of their time and attention on: Those type of degrees that when they get out of school, they can get a job."

Last year, a Florida state senator also suggested that state universities should scale back the number of psychology and political science degrees.

Unfortunately, in this tough economy, these politicians are making the all too common mistake of confusing education with training. The idea that universities should simply be factories for producing graduates focused exclusively in STEM (science, technology, engineering and math) fields is incredibly shortsighted. While getting a job that leads toward a fulfilling career is a great reason for going to college, it certainly isn't the only one. A liberal arts education (including, for example, philosophy, art and sociology) educates the whole person and prepares students to excel in a range of careers and, even more importantly, live a life rich with meaning and purpose.

- http://www.denverpost.com/ci_19167366

How do liberal arts colleges go about doing this? Consider what they are asked to study. Students at St. John’s College study original works in mathematics and science, language and literature, politics and history, philosophy and theology. All of these books – from Homer to Shakespeare, Plato to Hegel, and Euclid to Einstein -- help students consider the deeply human questions: What kind of world do I live in? What is my place in it? What should I do with my life? How should I live a life that is worthy of my humanity? They then have a lifetime to practice the arts they have learned, to deepen their questions, and to choose with some intelligence the life that suits them best. Boundaries throughout the world are vanishing, and we need our next generation of leaders in every field, in every endeavor, to have been broadly educated across the disciplines rather than narrowly trained.

- http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...plKO_blog.html

A liberal arts education can teach you to think and write clearly. One paradox of the discussion about American liberal arts colleges is that it’s taking place at the same time that employers are complaining about their workers’ lack of communications skills. According to a report by the Chronicle of Higher Education and American Public Media’s Marketplace, “When it comes to the skills most needed by employers, job candidates are lacking most in written and oral communications skills, adaptability and managing multiple priorities, and making decisions and problem solving.”

In a recent Fortune profile of Jeff Bezos, the Amazon CEO emphasized the importance of written memos for the company’s senior management team. “For new employees, it’s a strange initial experience,” Bezos said. “They’re just not accustomed to sitting silently in a room and doing study hall with a bunch of executives. Full sentences are harder to write. They have verbs. The paragraphs have topic sentences. There is no way to write a six-page, narratively structured memo and not have clear thinking.” A liberal arts education can be a great help here.

- http://www.city-journal.org/2013/23_...eral-arts.html

[LandRunOkie]

I agree about the importance of a liberal arts education. I don't think OU is likely to ever offer one, however. And considering such an education will cost over $100,000 and may carry little weight in the job market, I think there are better alternatives for self-study. I would recommend the Synopticon by Mortimer Adler: The Great Ideas: A Lexicon of Western Thought: Mortimer J. Adler: 9780025005730: Amazon.com: Books . The full set is available here: Amazon.com: Great Books of the Western World (9780852295311): Mortimer J. Adler, Clifton Fadiman, Philip W. Goetz: Books . These are organized as the great books of Western thought, designed to be read over 10 years by working adults, or 4 years at a liberal arts college. Most colleges have switched away from this curriculum now, with a few holdouts, like St. Johns College.
I've found just knowing what to study is more important than who teaches it to you.