Streetcar

[OKC Guy]

This whole “the suburbs have been subsidizing downtown for _____ years” business is malarkey; I’m sorry. Which square mile of the 622 miles of Oklahoma City are you talking about? In around 2014 or 2015 (sorry, I don’t recall which) the City of OKC on the request of Downtown OKC Inc (now the Downtown OKC Partnership) pulled a sales tax report on the roughly square mile that compromises Bricktown. During the preceding year, that square mile produced roughly FIVE PERCENT of the entire city’s sales tax. Meaning one dollar in 20 of the budget for the police protection, fire protection, library, road, water and whatever other services we ALL enjoy was paid for by a single square mile OF SIX HUNDRED TWENTY TWO.

Mind you, this was before Midtown, Film Row, West Village, Automobile Alley and on and on had any appreciable entertainment or retail. Today, all of those areas together probably account for 2-3 times that percentage.

Do those areas attract dollars from OKC’s subrurban City limits? Sure they do. Of course, those people could just as easily be going to Edmond or Norman or Dallas or wherever to spend their entertainment dollars. But they don’t. Because downtown OKC (and the rapidly-regenerating core like Uptown, Paseo and Plaza) holds their attention. It ALSO, by the way, attracts dollars FROM Edmond. And Mustang. and Yukon. And Norman. And Dallas. And Amarillo. And Fort Smith. And Los Angeles. And London. And Stuttgart. And Trondheim. And Sydney. And Taipei. How do I know this? Because I’ve talked to people from all of those places in the past 30 days, and I talk to a FRACTION of the people my employees talk to. Those people pay for your police, and your fire protection, and your library, and your road resurfacing. And they’re not going to visit your neighborhood no matter how nice the park is there.

By the way, there is a HUGE concentration of jobs within 2 miles of downtown. And part of the reason they are there is because of amenities.

Also, I live very close to downtown, and work IN downtown. When I shower (or whatever) it goes down 100 year old pipes. They were paid for by my grandfather’s grandfather. When someone builds a housing addition in BFE in the middle of a field, guess who pays for THOSE city sewer lines? ME. The guy who shops at the Homeland at 18th and Classen and eats lunch at the Midtown Garage, and who NEVER shops at the Crest in Edmond or eats at the Dairy Queen in Moore.

Should OKC be spending money in the suburbs? Neighborhoods I mean? The other 620 or so square miles? Yes, OF COURSE it should. Just tell me where. Tell me where you can spend $100 million (about a year of a penny tax collection for the whole city) and make the same type of impact. One mile of street construction runs about $10 million these days, so a year’s worth of MAPS tax will build ten miles of new section line roads. Where are you going to put those ten miles? That’s one years’ worth. Of our money. Yours (when you shop in the OKC city limits) mine, and the couple from Taipei.

Scissortail Park is about $130 million, so a year and four months’ worth. Want one in your neighborhood? Great. Now...what about the 98% of OKC residents who don’t live within 2 miles of you? What do they get? Bupkus? Well, they’re on the phone and they’re PISSED.

Look, I’m for finding as many ways as possible to improve ALL of OKC. And in some cases, this DEFINITELY means finding ways to make our suburbs work better through suburban retrofit, making parts of them more walkable, more dense, better generators of sales tax, and in some cases - sorry to say - less parasitic and less of a drain on our community resources.

But this notion that the suburbs are “subsidizing” downtown? Please. It’s horse puckey. Do the other 615 miles COMBINED generate more tax than the 6-7 that comprise downtown proper and the immediate neighborhoods? Of course. But show me another 6-7 square miles which generate anywhere near the same amount of tax. I’ll wait right here.

The poimt you are missing is a majority of the OKC suburbs are not as educated on the downtown topics as you are. You live there so its on your radar. They don’t. What is lost is the impression of money being spent downtown is starting to change where folks want to spend in future. I too work downtown and live in burbs. I love what Maps has done. But now havimg spent 25 years focused on downtown we will need to start thinking about the other 95% of voters as we move forward. We need to keep their confidence for future asks.

We all know within 15 years the Peake discussion will start, if we need to fund a new one. So we need to include the 95% in how we spend money because we will have a lot more asks.

Like I’ve said we have transformed downtown and its been a huge hit. We have to make sure we include in a positive way everyone in the city to continue getting things passed. That newish complex with Topgolf is showing we are starting to grow other areas besides downtown. The Edmomds will start driving there vs driving downtown because we have not addressed things like buses instead we created the SC. So as those folks can go to Topgolf complex for their entertainmemt you lose a segment of local downtown spend. Thus why I mentioned needing to have spent money getting people downtown from out of downtown. Looking at other new growth of entertainmemt alomg the 235 corridor (north of 44) you can start to see folks can drive closer for fun.

This does not make downtown go downhill, not at all. But as you start having more “outlying” venues the dollars get spread around. Had we spent SC money on buses you set up methods to get folks downtown.

And again, at next vote ots what people “think” regardless if they are right or not. Just because you live downtown does not mean burbs think and know what you do. Maps 3 was passex at 54% in 2009, 9 years ago. Look at the changes since then. One extreme example is Paycom out on Memorial and Rockwell/Council. They have 3,000 employees and are growing like bonkers. So around 7,500 with family members. Most will live in that area. Do you think a majority of them would vote for improved roads or more SC to expand in downtown? That is just one example of how we have changed. They and everyone can see the great changes downtown even the convention center/park/hotel. In their world money has been spemt dkwntown now they will want money in their areas. Right or wromg those are the type voters will be be needed for “Maps 4”.

Its important to note I love what we did downtown. But we have to look at how we are changing and adding other entertainment areas and people.

No mic drop for me all I want is to make sure we continue the positive momentem our fair city has garnered over the past 25 years. Of the tons of Maps projects in my opinon every single one has been a homerun expect the SC. I can see there are posters embedded on this topic and thats fine. I am trying to point out things downtowners don’t see that burbers like me do. A huge majority of suburban citizens (OKC) do not agree with the street car. It does not make us bad citizens it means the city has hurdles to overcome when wanting to expand it. If the burbaites are not brought in and engaged then a rift could develop causing future tax asks to fail.

I hope you take this constructively and realize there is 95% of non downtowners that need to be included in future downtown needs.

[Urbanized]

Listen, I get what you are saying, and not at all disagreeing that we need to improve the entire city and most importantly make sure that no matter what, whatever we should do is benefit the largest portion of the community.

The thing I am taking issue with is the “the suburbs have been subsidizing downtown” bit, because it is demonstrably untrue. First and foremost, downtown belongs to the entire community, not only the few thousand whom live in downtown proper. The Chesapeake Arena, the ballpark, the Civic Center, Whitewhater facilities, they are for everyone. The Thunder plays in front of the whole community. The downtown library is a resource for the whole city.

But more importantly, they capture sales tax that is distributed city-wide via services. And at a rate far beyond any other part of town.

Finally, the scale of our city makes it very difficult for capital expenditures to be made in an impactful way in more than one area at a time, unfortunately. So we will never be able to see MAPS-like impacts city-wide. HOWEVER, as we continue to invest in the part that EVERYONE uses, we will continue to attract great (privately-funded) projects like Chisholm Creek.

And by the way, I know a number of people who work at Paycom. They love downtown and spend plenty of time there.

[shawnw]

Chad, I think that 10 million per mile of road is worse than that... I think it's 10M per lane mile, so 40M for a mile of 4-lane road...

[LakeEffect]

Chad, I think that 10 million per mile of road is worse than that... I think it's 10M per lane mile, so 40M for a mile of 4-lane road...

For an OKC Bond widening, it's about $750,000 to $1M per lane mile, IIRC. A new highway, from scratch, it's certainly at that higher level.

[ChaseDweller]

Sorry if this has been discussed already - I tried searching this thread, but didn't find anything, but what is the purpose of the cross- connector on 5th street? Like the track in front of the Santa Fe Station, it's not on the maps of the route anywhere, but I know what that one is for.

Is there going to be a shorter loop just for downtown?

[catch22]

Sorry if this has been discussed already - I tried searching this thread, but didn't find anything, but what is the purpose of the cross- connector on 5th street? Like the track in front of the Santa Fe Station, it's not on the maps of the route anywhere, but I know what that one is for.

Is there going to be a shorter loop just for downtown?

I believe it was paid for by the federal government as part of the Santa Fe station remodel. I don’t think as of yet it has any function other than to bypass Bricktown if necessary.

Edit: I see you are referring to 5th street. It is a turn back to bypass Midtown. (Track blockage from an accident, event, or construction)

[Ross MacLochness]

This whole “the suburbs have been subsidizing downtown for _____ years” business is malarkey; I’m sorry. Which square mile of the 622 miles of Oklahoma City are you talking about? In around 2014 or 2015 (sorry, I don’t recall which) the City of OKC on the request of Downtown OKC Inc (now the Downtown OKC Partnership) pulled a sales tax report on the roughly square mile that compromises Bricktown. During the preceding year, that square mile produced roughly FIVE PERCENT of the entire city’s sales tax. Meaning one dollar in 20 of the budget for the police protection, fire protection, library, road, water and whatever other services we ALL enjoy was paid for by a single square mile OF SIX HUNDRED TWENTY TWO.

Mind you, this was before Midtown, Film Row, West Village, Automobile Alley and on and on had any appreciable entertainment or retail. Today, all of those areas together probably account for 2-3 times that percentage.

Do those areas attract dollars from OKC’s subrurban City limits? Sure they do. Of course, those people could just as easily be going to Edmond or Norman or Dallas or wherever to spend their entertainment dollars. But they don’t. Because downtown OKC (and the rapidly-regenerating core like Uptown, Paseo and Plaza) holds their attention. It ALSO, by the way, attracts dollars FROM Edmond. And Mustang. and Yukon. And Norman. And Dallas. And Amarillo. And Fort Smith. And Los Angeles. And London. And Stuttgart. And Trondheim. And Sydney. And Taipei. How do I know this? Because I’ve talked to people from all of those places in the past 30 days, and I talk to a FRACTION of the people my employees talk to. Those people pay for your police, and your fire protection, and your library, and your road resurfacing. And they’re not going to visit your neighborhood no matter how nice the park is there.

By the way, there is a HUGE concentration of jobs within 2 miles of downtown. And part of the reason they are there is because of amenities.

Also, I live very close to downtown, and work IN downtown. When I shower (or whatever) it goes down 100 year old pipes. They were paid for by my grandfather’s grandfather. When someone builds a housing addition in BFE in the middle of a field, guess who pays for THOSE city sewer lines? ME. The guy who shops at the Homeland at 18th and Classen and eats lunch at the Midtown Garage, and who NEVER shops at the Crest in Edmond or eats at the Dairy Queen in Moore.

Should OKC be spending money in the suburbs? Neighborhoods I mean? The other 620 or so square miles? Yes, OF COURSE it should. Just tell me where. Tell me where you can spend $100 million (about a year of a penny tax collection for the whole city) and make the same type of impact. One mile of street construction runs about $10 million these days, so a year’s worth of MAPS tax will build ten miles of new section line roads. Where are you going to put those ten miles? That’s one years’ worth. Of our money. Yours (when you shop in the OKC city limits) mine, and the couple from Taipei.

Scissortail Park is about $130 million, so a year and four months’ worth. Want one in your neighborhood? Great. Now...what about the 98% of OKC residents who don’t live within 2 miles of you? What do they get? Bupkus? Well, they’re on the phone and they’re PISSED.

Look, I’m for finding as many ways as possible to improve ALL of OKC. And in some cases, this DEFINITELY means finding ways to make our suburbs work better through suburban retrofit, making parts of them more walkable, more dense, better generators of sales tax, and in some cases - sorry to say - less parasitic and less of a drain on our community resources.

But this notion that the suburbs are “subsidizing” downtown? Please. It’s horse puckey. Do the other 615 miles COMBINED generate more tax than the 6-7 that comprise downtown proper and the immediate neighborhoods? Of course. But show me another 6-7 square miles which generate anywhere near the same amount of tax. I’ll wait right here.

Wish I could give you more reputation points! And I wish they translated into beer...

[PaddyShack]

For what it's worth, the bus system does get people downtown. Pretty much any bus I would need to take to get to my destination has a transfer in downtown...

I live in Yukon and work at Britton and Broadway Ext. I wished my company had either stayed nearer to downtown or moved closer to the core. But that was out of my control. I want to move to the core but right now my income and my personal comfort levels with debt don't allow me to move to the core, at least not where I want to. I hope that the continued improvements to our downtown bring even more HQs and higher-paying jobs so I can eventually move to the core. With Global Payments and the Monarch I might find something. These companies moved to the core because of MAPS and the SC. I can't vote on MAPS, but I sure see the benefits and I tend to shop quite a bit in OKC limits to fund the ecosystem. The SC helps me as a commuter park further away from Bricktown on the CBD and still enjoy all of the entertainment options.

[gopokes88]

More sidewalks, trees, park improvements, and roads is really all the burbs' need and should be enough to keep them happy. Importing some sand and building a beach on Lake Hefner would be a great project as well.

Large scale infrastructure/entertainment improvements must continue to remain downtown or nearby.

urbanized is right, the improvements are focused on downtown for a very specific reason.

And every-time you read one of those glowingly positive articles about OKC, its because of Bricktown, Deep Deuce, Midtown, Plaza, Paseo or 23rd. No one cares about NW Expressway.

[OKC Guy]

...No one cares about NW Expressway.

This type attitude is why future Maps will struggle getting enough votes to pass.

Wha I see in this thread is if you have a different viewpoint about SC then you are labled as Anti OKC. And this is something that is creating a real rift in general population too.

It is important downtown work hard to include or educate all city citizens because we will all need their support to pass future Maps. But taking the approach “if you don’t live in inner core you don’t matter” is the wrong one in my opinion.

Of the 100 things Maps has done I only have exceptions/questions about 1 of them. OKC has done a great job with Maps but there is more to do and if SC fails (in sense or perception or ridership) that will be talked about more than the 99 great stories.

And its not too late to start working with all city citizens and its not too late to stop trying to drive a wedge between districts. The NW Highway response is an example of what I hear more and more.

Lets all hope we can bridge gaps and overcome district differences for the betterment of our great city. Just because a poster has tons of posts, does not make their voice better. Its the content of the post that matters. Of course, someone who has posted a lot likely has built up a lot of cred. I don’t have posters who can follow me and say “I’d give you more cred if I could”. Does that make my posts less important or on topic.

To be honest we won’t know the success of this project for at least 2-3 years. Once the newness wears off will we have enough sustainable riders to support it plus expand it. I hope it works and worry it won’t.

[baralheia]

Looks like the sixth vehicle - #201806, in Bermuda Green livery - was delivered today. Only one more to go before our fleet is complete!

https://www.facebook.com/OKCStreetca...31258490448606

[OKC Guy]

Looks like the sixth vehicle - #201806, in Bermuda Green livery - was delivered today. Only one more to go before our fleet is complete!

https://www.facebook.com/OKCStreetca...31258490448606

I do like the colors of all 3 iterations plus I like the paint style/schemes. They do look “modern” compared to what I’ve seen in other cities. Great job on that OKC planners!

[gopokes88]

This type attitude is why future Maps will struggle getting enough votes to pass.

Wha I see in this thread is if you have a different viewpoint about SC then you are labled as Anti OKC. And this is something that is creating a real rift in general population too.

It is important downtown work hard to include or educate all city citizens because we will all need their support to pass future Maps. But taking the approach “if you don’t live in inner core you don’t matter” is the wrong one in my opinion.

Of the 100 things Maps has done I only have exceptions/questions about 1 of them. OKC has done a great job with Maps but there is more to do and if SC fails (in sense or perception or ridership) that will be talked about more than the 99 great stories.

And its not too late to start working with all city citizens and its not too late to stop trying to drive a wedge between districts. The NW Highway response is an example of what I hear more and more.

Lets all hope we can bridge gaps and overcome district differences for the betterment of our great city. Just because a poster has tons of posts, does not make their voice better. Its the content of the post that matters. Of course, someone who has posted a lot likely has built up a lot of cred. I don’t have posters who can follow me and say “I’d give you more cred if I could”. Does that make my posts less important or on topic.

To be honest we won’t know the success of this project for at least 2-3 years. Once the newness wears off will we have enough sustainable riders to support it plus expand it. I hope it works and worry it won’t.

When I say no one cares about NW Expressway I mean,

Outside of sidewalks, trees, park improvements there isn't a MAPS large scale project you could do that would matter. It's not a slight against the burbs, it's just that most of these projects simply don't make sense outside of CBD/bricktown/DD/midtown. They would struggle then fail. Nobody would care, it wouldn't matter. Tourists aren't going to venture out that far. There isn't the density needed to sustain it. I live in the burbs so its not a urban v burb thing. It's just the reality.

Building a beach on Lake Hefner would be an exception. That would likely work. Other than that though there isn't a whole lot to work with at NW Expressway and MacArthur. A commuter rail line down NW expressway to the core is more likely to be handled by the RTA than Maps too.

[Urbanized]

This type attitude is why future Maps will struggle getting enough votes to pass.

Wha I see in this thread is if you have a different viewpoint about SC then you are labled as Anti OKC. And this is something that is creating a real rift in general population too.

It is important downtown work hard to include or educate all city citizens because we will all need their support to pass future Maps. But taking the approach “if you don’t live in inner core you don’t matter” is the wrong one in my opinion.

Of the 100 things Maps has done I only have exceptions/questions about 1 of them. OKC has done a great job with Maps but there is more to do and if SC fails (in sense or perception or ridership) that will be talked about more than the 99 great stories.

And its not too late to start working with all city citizens and its not too late to stop trying to drive a wedge between districts. The NW Highway response is an example of what I hear more and more.

Lets all hope we can bridge gaps and overcome district differences for the betterment of our great city. Just because a poster has tons of posts, does not make their voice better. Its the content of the post that matters. Of course, someone who has posted a lot likely has built up a lot of cred. I don’t have posters who can follow me and say “I’d give you more cred if I could”. Does that make my posts less important or on topic.

To be honest we won’t know the success of this project for at least 2-3 years. Once the newness wears off will we have enough sustainable riders to support it plus expand it. I hope it works and worry it won’t.

I care about NW Expressway, a lot. I've spent much of my life living near it. My dad lives in Surrey Hills and has for 25 years. I hope that it becomes a transit corridor. I hope that there are some retrofit developments which begin to reign in the sprawl and make it more economically sustainable for the City. I have enthusiastically posted about the proposed development near NW Expressway and Penn.

And in fact I care greatly about all of OKC. And all of us should.

That still doesn't mean that we should be spending MAPS money there if it is not impactful. You have yet to respond to any of the reasons I mentioned that the focus of limited MAPS funds is simply more impactful in the core, and benefits ALL citizens of OKC, not only in quality of life but in tax collection.

Please, share with us a list of how we can spend MAPS money at the fringes and benefit the entire community - all 622 square miles of it - as much as we are in rebuilding the core, creating venues for all citizens, bringing new economic development, securing tax revenues. I have yet to see a single suburban-oriented idea with the city-wide benefit you mention wanting. Sure, we could build a really great park somewhere, but that only benefits residents within a few square miles. Sprawl IS the problem; and we need to mitigate and reverse its effects.

If you can't provide reasons (other than emotional ones) that OKC needs to abandon its effort to rebuild a center decimated by sprawl, and can't come up with compelling examples of suburban projects drawing on limited MAPS resources that might in some way benefit the entire community, I will posit that you are the one driving a wedge. What has been done to date (and continues to be done) in the core of OKC has been specifically designed to benefit ALL citizens, and it has been an overwhelming success in this regard. The thing that will kill MAPS is not a few extreme (and likely a bit tongue-in-cheek comments regarding not caring about NW Expressway. What will kill MAPS is when people who don't fully understand its purpose and impact raise a "where is mine" cacophony. YOUR benefit from MAPS is exactly the same as MINE is. Already.

[OKC Guy]

When I say no one cares about NW Expressway I mean,

Outside of sidewalks, trees, park improvements there isn't a MAPS large scale project you could do that would matter. It's not a slight against the burbs, it's just that most of these projects simply don't make sense outside of CBD/bricktown/DD/midtown. They would struggle then fail. Nobody would care, it wouldn't matter. Tourists aren't going to venture out that far. There isn't the density needed to sustain it. I live in the burbs so its not a urban v burb thing. It's just the reality.

Building a beach on Lake Hefner would be an exception. That would likely work. Other than that though there isn't a whole lot to work with at NW Expressway and MacArthur. A commuter rail line down NW expressway to the core is more likely to be handled by the RTA than Maps too.

Thats your opinion which you are entitled to. But simply not true. The senior citizen center on Rockwell is a smashing success with numbers I believe 3 to 4 times higher than even the best projections. Sidewalks being installed citywide are good too. Trails seem to be looked at favorably. So to say Maps is only for inner core is misguided.

But back to my key point, its what citizens cityywide think that will matter the next time we vote for a Maps. We have to engage all citizens to keep their support. Most love what Maps has done for the core and understand the premise behind most money going there. But it only takes one mistep to change opinions and lose support. 99 of 100 are great and 100 is yet to be determined. I’ve expressed my concerns with it. And as a Thunder supporter I know the day will come when we have to build a new arena to keep up with other cities. That alone will be a tough sell if we have a Maps failure along the way. There are people who will go all out against it saying private should pay. I have no problem with public supporting it for many reasons. Thats what I’m getting at is if SC fails that poays into the hands of future asks/projects. We will always need to keep Maps going to get abead and stay ahead. Maps saved our city imo. I think its been a game changer which other cities try to emulate. We do not want any failures. Most other cities have had some type of failures with inner core projects and have harder fights to get things passed. I don’t want that here because Maps has made our core a destination vice a drive thru.

I hope that makes sense. Just because I have reservations regarding one project don’t discount my support for every other Maps we’ve accomplished. One aspect is citywide support has to be there and we have to always be thinking in terms of how to positively engage all citizens and keep our forward mometum. What I hear from my friends is disdain for the SC. That does not mean it will fail but there are city residents who are skepitical and we do not want to give them any ammunition to fight the next ask when it comes time to vote.

[gopokes88]

Thats your opinion which you are entitled to. But simply not true. The senior citizen center on Rockwell is a smashing success with numbers I believe 3 to 4 times higher than even the best projections. Sidewalks being installed citywide are good too. Trails seem to be looked at favorably. So to say Maps is only for inner core is misguided.

But back to my key point, its what citizens cityywide think that will matter the next time we vote for a Maps. We have to engage all citizens to keep their support. Most love what Maps has done for the core and understand the premise behind most money going there. But it only takes one mistep to change opinions and lose support. 99 of 100 are great and 100 is yet to be determined. I’ve expressed my concerns with it. And as a Thunder supporter I know the day will come when we have to build a new arena to keep up with other cities. That alone will be a tough sell if we have a Maps failure along the way. There are people who will go all out against it saying private should pay. I have no problem with public supporting it for many reasons. Thats what I’m getting at is if SC fails that poays into the hands of future asks/projects. We will always need to keep Maps going to get abead and stay ahead. Maps saved our city imo. I think its been a game changer which other cities try to emulate. We do not want any failures. Most other cities have had some type of failures with inner core projects and have harder fights to get things passed. I don’t want that here because Maps has made our core a destination vice a drive thru.

I hope that makes sense. Just because I have reservations regarding one project don’t discount my support for every other Maps we’ve accomplished. One aspect is citywide support has to be there and we have to always be thinking in terms of how to positively engage all citizens and keep our forward mometum. What I hear from my friends is disdain for the SC. That does not mean it will fail but there are city residents who are skepitical and we do not want to give them any ammunition to fight the next ask when it comes time to vote.

Depends on your definition of “fail” for the SC.

I’d argue it’s already exceeding expectations given Heartland specifically cited the SC as one the reason they chose to expand into OKC and choose AA. I would bet part the SC was a factor in ludivine’s relo as well. If someone wants to call that a failure so be it, they’re wrong.

Maps is designed to be inside out improvements. (Trickle out economics if you will) A thriving core will radiate out to the city. The core isn’t done, there is a longggggggg way still to go.

I don’t know how close we are to having to replace the Peake either. It’s as nice as any other arena, it’s not the high tech flashy of Sacramento but it’s not a dump either. Probably on par with Phoenix or salt lake.

[Urbanized]

^^^^^^^^^
I completely agree with OKC guy regarding trails and sidewalks. Also the senior centers are fine.

Trails, sidewalks, bicycle infrastructure, transit expansions into the burbs are ALL great uses of this money, and I hope it continues.

My point is only that there are few if any large projects which make sense outside of the core for the reasons I’ve already outlined above. And transit needs to hub and spoke from the core. Which only reinforces that the streetcar is a wise expenditure as a “last mile” option, and makes OTHER transit more viable in the future.

[shawnw]

5th already being torn up

[CloudDeckMedia]

The City of New York is proposing an 11-mile streetcar line connecting Brooklyn & Queens for an eye-popping $2.73 billion, of which $1 billion in federal aid would be required. Construction is proposed to begin in 2024, expected to be finished in 2029. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/30/n...yn-queens.html

[Plutonic Panda]

This street car, like the one in DTLA, has been proposed for some time and have been met with some opposition, especially the one in NYC. Streetcars are just an awful form of transportation and I just can’t get myself excited about OKC’s, though as I always, I do want it to succeed since it’s already built. It would just be nice if they would have invested that money in a “real” rail system and not one that runs at grade in streets.

[Teo9969]

Streetcars are hardly an awful form of Transportation. They're not comprehensive by any means and they have their failings, but they have a positive impact on the urbanity of a city and the overall views toward public transportation. This metro-area desperately needs to buy into public transportation if it hopes to be a competitive city in its class in the future and there is 0% possibility that this is accomplished with Embark buses alone. I really would hate to know what percentage of OKC residents have ever stepped foot inside public transportation and that has a chance to change in a big way with the streetcar.

I think those who have played a part in the transit studies have done a great job outlining a perfectly reasonable approach to the usage of a street car in a city like OKC. We haven't tried to envision an overly expansive system, but we also haven't dismissed the importance of the impact that transit has in highlighting the true structure of our city. In a lot of ways, I think that the long-term vision of the streetcar will only help foster a larger appreciation for our Bus system and indeed will allow us to make headway in developing more efficient and strategic routes for the future.

[Plutonic Panda]

The streetcar will only help transit in OKC if it’s done right. That means having it operating as much as possible which the current schedule is less than impressive. If it isn’t done right, there is the possibility of future transit proposals in OKC being met with oppositions due to the streetcar underperforming.

On a side note: LA just moved forward their streetcar proposal. It is ready to break ground and I believe almost fully funded.

[OKC Guy]

Streetcars are hardly an awful form of Transportation. They're not comprehensive by any means and they have their failings, but they have a positive impact on the urbanity of a city and the overall views toward public transportation. This metro-area desperately needs to buy into public transportation if it hopes to be a competitive city in its class in the future and there is 0% possibility that this is accomplished with Embark buses alone. I really would hate to know what percentage of OKC residents have ever stepped foot inside public transportation and that has a chance to change in a big way with the streetcar.

I think those who have played a part in the transit studies have done a great job outlining a perfectly reasonable approach to the usage of a street car in a city like OKC. We haven't tried to envision an overly expansive system, but we also haven't dismissed the importance of the impact that transit has in highlighting the true structure of our city. In a lot of ways, I think that the long-term vision of the streetcar will only help foster a larger appreciation for our Bus system and indeed will allow us to make headway in developing more efficient and strategic routes for the future.

I agree with your thoughts but I disagree in the order is all. I feel if we invested the SC money into bus system we can then get more folks to downtown without cars. Additionally we then get more public support. So then once we get busses running smoothly we do the street car to transport those bus riders in the core. As it stands unless a person lives in the core you have to drive to core and park. And I think investing $130m into bus system would have worked. Doing SC first gives bus system zero chance at working imo. So in my world vision we needed to get bus system working which then feeds into core. Then do SC.

I do hope they increase hours for SC to maximize availability to more folks. I like the look of the cars they picked. Will be good for convention center. Not sure if it helps after Thunder games due to car/road gridlock. If cars are stuck on streets post game then so too will be SC. Bird scooters may be a bonanza after games though.

Anyways, I hope SC works so we can keep forward momentum of all the other great successes from Maps. I am rooting for it.

[Plutonic Panda]

I agree this money would be better spent on improving the bus system, specifically around downtown. New bus depot, new BRT style buses that can have dedicated lanes in some areas. They could have built streetcar style stops.

People love to boast about OKC’s low traffic, but that won’t last forever. It won’t be too long before these streetcars get tied up in traffic and take just as long or longer to get someone to their destination even factoring in walking to their parked car.

Urbanized posted some good info awhile back I still haven’t fully read about cost comparisons between BRT and streetcar being closer than further apart, but I’m sure that also depends on the standards imposed by the BRT system. Compromises can be made and we could have gotten more bang for our buck with more miles and higher ridership with a better bus system.

I’m not against rail, but I despise rail running at grade with few exceptions. I know this is beating a dead horse at this point, so I just hope the streetcar succeeds and we’re fortunate to have amazing folks like Urban Pioneer who knows what it will take to get the system running successfully. Hopefully the city understands it and gets on board(pun intended).

[Laramie]

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