Streetcar

[shawnw]

Folks who complain why streetcar and not bus, please show me your bus pass.

I'm a regular bus rider and I'm not seeing y'all on the bus.

I'm not intending to belittle anyone on this thread. I'm serious. We need y'all riding the bus. For transit at large to improve in Oklahoma City the thing we need more than ANYTHING else... is ridership. And public meeting attendance. The only people I see on the bus and in Embark public meetings (for the most part) is the folks that don't have much of a choice. Until we have critical mass of folks that have a choice and CHOOSE transit/bus, we're not going to get where we need to go. Even with the streetcar. It is not a magic bullet. Ridership at large on the entire transit system is the magic bullet. If the buses are full, the conversation to add buses will happen.

And you can gripe all you want about how the current system is not adequate. It might not be if you're outside the core, but that's something else that won't get better without ridership. The current system for those in the core is not the most terrible thing. It can be made to work. If you're serious about it. Which most aren't. Please, put your money where your mouth is, and then let the folks at Embark know what's working and what's not, ad nauseum. I'm quite certain there are a number of folks there that are tired of hearing from me. But I ride, and I'm vocal, and we need MORE of that in order for things to get better.

Sorry for the rant, but I'm tired of hearing non-bus riders gripe about why not buses or why not more buses. It's because y'all aren't riding.

[hoya]

They could just install large cattle plows like you see on diesel locomotives hauling freight.

That would be totally awesome.

[PaddyShack]

Folks who complain why streetcar and not bus, please show me your bus pass.

I'm a regular bus rider and I'm not seeing y'all on the bus.

I'm not intending to belittle anyone on this thread. I'm serious. We need y'all riding the bus. For transit at large to improve in Oklahoma City the thing we need more than ANYTHING else... is ridership. And public meeting attendance. The only people I see on the bus and in Embark public meetings (for the most part) is the folks that don't have much of a choice. Until we have critical mass of folks that have a choice and CHOOSE transit/bus, we're not going to get where we need to go. Even with the streetcar. It is not a magic bullet. Ridership at large on the entire transit system is the magic bullet. If the buses are full, the conversation to add buses will happen.

And you can gripe all you want about how the current system is not adequate. It might not be if you're outside the core, but that's something else that won't get better without ridership. The current system for those in the core is not the most terrible thing. It can be made to work. If you're serious about it. Which most aren't. Please, put your money where you mouth is, and then let the folks at Embark know what's working and what's not, ad nauseum. I'm quite certain there are a number of folks there that are tired of hearing from me. But I ride, and I'm vocal, and we need MORE of that in order for things to get better.

Sorry for the rant, but I'm tired of hearing non-bus riders gripe about why not buses or why not more buses. It's because y'all aren't riding.

I would like to ride the bus, but with me living in Yukon and my job being all the way up at Britton and Broadway Ext, the bus is just not a feasible option. I still would have to drive 15 mins into OKC to get to the nearest bus stop, which is not an acceptable park-and-ride area, ride the bus for 50 min to the transfer station downtown, then take a 2nd 50 min bus to my office. And then repeat for my trip home. There is no mass transit for many people who still live in the metro area.

[shawnw]

You are correct, no doubt.

[jerrywall]

When I still worked in Edmond, after my seizure, I couldnt drive for a year I used Edmonds bus system that entire time. It was great. Also liked that it was free although I know that's not feasible everywhere. But if OKCs buses are comparable, then if they made sense for me to use, I would.

[TheTravellers]

Folks who complain why streetcar and not bus, please show me your bus pass.

I'm a regular bus rider and I'm not seeing y'all on the bus.....

I rode the bus and El all the time in Chicago (and Metra to actually get to/from our apt. to work).

Living at NW 164th/May (where we were living when we moved back in 2009 until 2 years ago) isn't feasible for the bus since no routes go that far north. We now live at NW 35th/Venice, so there are routes nearby, but to get to work at about Portland/Reno, I'd have to take route 007 that goes down May (not sure where the stops are, they're not marked on Embark's map) to the transit center and connect to route 009, which goes along Portland. Since it doesn't look like Embark has a route planner, no idea how long it would take, but it would not be inconsequential, I'd expect probably at least 30 minutes and that would be if I got to a bus stop or the transit center right as a bus came along and didn't have to wait.

Or I could get in my car and drive for 8 minutes.

That's why I don't ride the bus.

[shawnw]

My recommendation to all is to use TransitApp or MoovIt for your route planning. All of Embark's data goes to them. It will tell you if there's a reasonable chance to use the bus to/from where you're going.

[Midtowner]

We're solving the last mile problem in advance.

That has to be the vision. We have a downtown circulator. I assume we'll start to see more straight line routes. Much of the right of way from the old trolley system is still owned by the city. It'd be pretty great to see a trolley rolling down Classen again, or down the middle of NW Expressway or Shields.

[Anonymous.]

There is additional signage posted already (at least in Bricktown); it's visible in the picture on the OKC Streetcar's Twitter account that catch22 posted a link to (https://twitter.com/OKCStreetcar/sta...34306532835328).

Specifically, the sign reads "NO PARKING OVER WHITE LINE".

Oh nice! Thank you.

[Buffalo Bill]

It will be interestesting to see what the extent of intersection reconstruction will take place at NW 11th / Classen Drive / Dewey. The new streetcar track comes through there about 6” below the existing surface. Lots of manhole covers and drainage structures will need to be evaluated.

[baralheia]

My recommendation to all is to use TransitApp or MoovIt for your route planning. All of Embark's data goes to them. It will tell you if there's a reasonable chance to use the bus to/from where you're going.

Embark also shares this data with Google so you can plan your transit journey in Google Maps, including in Navigation mode.

[baralheia]

I rode the bus and El all the time in Chicago (and Metra to actually get to/from our apt. to work).

Living at NW 164th/May (where we were living when we moved back in 2009 until 2 years ago) isn't feasible for the bus since no routes go that far north. We now live at NW 35th/Venice, so there are routes nearby, but to get to work at about Portland/Reno, I'd have to take route 007 that goes down May (not sure where the stops are, they're not marked on Embark's map) to the transit center and connect to route 009, which goes along Portland. Since it doesn't look like Embark has a route planner, no idea how long it would take, but it would not be inconsequential, I'd expect probably at least 30 minutes and that would be if I got to a bus stop or the transit center right as a bus came along and didn't have to wait.

Or I could get in my car and drive for 8 minutes.

That's why I don't ride the bus.

Just spitballing on start and end points close to where you mentioned gives this kind of route:

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/3508...1535011200!3e3

Looks like a little over an hour by bus, as there's no direct bus route to take you there.

[OKC Guy]

Folks who complain why streetcar and not bus, please show me your bus pass.

I'm a regular bus rider and I'm not seeing y'all on the bus.

I'm not intending to belittle anyone on this thread. I'm serious. We need y'all riding the bus. For transit at large to improve in Oklahoma City the thing we need more than ANYTHING else... is ridership. And public meeting attendance. The only people I see on the bus and in Embark public meetings (for the most part) is the folks that don't have much of a choice. Until we have critical mass of folks that have a choice and CHOOSE transit/bus, we're not going to get where we need to go. Even with the streetcar. It is not a magic bullet. Ridership at large on the entire transit system is the magic bullet. If the buses are full, the conversation to add buses will happen.

And you can gripe all you want about how the current system is not adequate. It might not be if you're outside the core, but that's something else that won't get better without ridership. The current system for those in the core is not the most terrible thing. It can be made to work. If you're serious about it. Which most aren't. Please, put your money where your mouth is, and then let the folks at Embark know what's working and what's not, ad nauseum. I'm quite certain there are a number of folks there that are tired of hearing from me. But I ride, and I'm vocal, and we need MORE of that in order for things to get better.

Sorry for the rant, but I'm tired of hearing non-bus riders gripe about why not buses or why not more buses. It's because y'all aren't riding.

You make great points and it would be great if more rode the bus. Maybe if they had used the tram money on bus system then riders increase?

My issue is the tram will be traffic jammed after Thunder games and 3 times each work day for the morning/lunch/afterwork rush. Its a very limited route which cannot be changed if its wrong. I hope it works but if people don’t ride the bus what makes the tram any different ridership wise? It will have the newness riders but once it wears off you have limited audience.

So in my world had we spent $150,000,000 on bus system just imagine the reach it would have. And could adjust routes based on any factor like road work or better stops. For that money the bus system would work but now we are splitting the money into 2 systems that will each require money. And because tram is newer the bus system gets less money/focus is my guess.

I want the tram to work but feel the bus system failed due to not putting money and resources into it. And in my opinion the tram project should have been a bus project. And then once you get bus working it feeds bricktown and the tram would have been a next step afterwards.

My other fear is Maps itself. Its transformed this city and been a huge success. But if tram fails that would be a huge blow to get future projects passed. If people feel their money was spent unwisely they will stop supportimg Maps type projects.

I hope I’m wrong and tram works but I work close to downtown and no tram and when I drive over for lunch the roads are packed with cars. No bus. And those roads are same path as tram, so as much as I/others sit in traffic jam so will tram. Had we increased buses to my area that would be a better option. And $150,000,000 would have done that.

I hope I’m wrong we all need tram to work for the next projects down the road. Someday we will be asked to help fund a new basketball arena too. Not sure blhow many years it will be but we’ll need support when that day comes. A failed tram will hamper those type asks in the future, so we all need tram to work.

[catch22]

Where exactly do you think it will be held up in traffic? Broadway backs up but usually only southbound, the streetcar runs north on Broadway. I’ve never once seen a traffic jam on 11th or 10th that would cripple the Streetcar. Robinson southbound is a fairly calm street, especially north of Sheridan. Sheridan and Reno are the only two streets on the line that ever get congested. I imagine that some signal timing changes in addition to the signal prioritization will minimize any delays.

Finally, it’s a streetcar not a tram.

[dankrutka]

Just one point for people who mentioned the bus doesn't run where they live -- and I ask this sincerely -- have you considered moving? I have a lot of conversations with friends who talk to me like they're stuck wherever they live.... as if someone forced for them to live there. I'm not telling others what to do, but there are more walkable, bikeable, busable options available. It's a lifestyle , environmental, economic, and personal choice, but it is no doubt a choice. Again, if you have a good reason for living where you live, I understand that. I'm just curious.

[OKC Guy]

Just one point for people who mentioned the bus doesn't run where they live -- and I ask this sincerely -- have you considered moving? I have a lot of conversations with friends who talk to me like they're stuck wherever they live.... as if someone forced for them to live there. I'm not telling others what to do, but there are more walkable, bikeable, busable options available. It's a lifestyle , environmental, economic, and personal choice, but it is no doubt a choice. Again, if you have a good reason for living where you live, I understand that. I'm just curious.

Your idea requires 2 moves possibly. Move from home and move from work since buses may not go to either. Only so many can move into small area lest it gets overcrowded and folks who like it now move out to get away. Plus most people like where they live.

I think its a stretch to ask people to move. The bigger ask is a city working to move people from outer areas to downtown work spaces. We are the last city to “get big” and face these problems and had chances to see how other cities solved problems. Spending time in other cities to see what works and doesn’t. The tram is very shortsighted and only covers a small area. A majority of our population will never use it but they will wonder why buses or other traspo methods are not discussed and improved more. The tram caters to a small segment of city/metro. And from what I read the new Birds work as good or better for citizens. Tram will be one of those “cool” things for tourists though.

Downtown living is not for all people. In fact its only less than 10%. But with tram they are spending a large portion of transpo budget (not counting roads) in relation to population. Its cool for a segment of folks to live downtown but that is an exception. Even huge cities like LA are spread out.

Just my opinion I get what you are saying but its not reality. Buses increased and efficient with parking areas would be a start. Imagine buses going up and down Classen and NW Highway every 10 minutes. A person could get downtown in a jiffy if the tram money had been out into buses. Same for other routes. Thats my beef the $150,000,000 put into buses would have transformed our transportation needs. But what we got was a small route in a small area of our metro that is going to need huge future miney to expand and sustain. Meaning no new money for buses. And how many decades and billions before it gets out to NW Highway? Buses could have been there within a few months.

Last thought, even if mega people moved downtown the growth of people would fill in the outer areas. So we will never get away from spread we nust need to figure out hiw to soend money wisely. And for the most part I think we have. Well ess centers are going gangbusters. Other Maps were city changing. My one and only worry is the tram money should have been spent on massive buses/system. I’ve been to many overseas cities like Hong Kong and Paris. Lived in many cities in US. A great bus system really works well for a city. Then you can work on trams and trains and things like that to fill in blanks as needed. Buses should have come first and would have received citywide support too. My fear is the trams do not have as much support as is stated once you get away from downtown Bricktown. Even the medical district is not served by tram and its a huge huge workforce. Buses are non accurate and not enough.

I got a bit wordy so forgive my long reply. I love living here too so take this constructively. I want us to excel in all our endevours. Just don’t want trams to be the reason people stop supporting future Maps. And if it fails that will happen.

[HOT ROD]

the bus system is really in a chicken and egg scenario. but most of us realize that the chicken came first since the egg is its reproduction.

IMO, OKC has been using the 'egg' as the excuse here, that people need to move into a dense area in order for bus service to begin. I don't totally disagree BUT I think there are things the city can do to encourage demand in existing, ignored, already dense enough areas. I'll outline my suggestions below:

1) Neighborhood engagement: The city needs to identify existing dense clusters (and OKC does have them outside of the core) and conduct surveys and meetings on how people use/would use transit. This could be a combination of after work town hall sessions, mailers, internet, and social media - get the data on where people work, how many, and what options they currently use. Once you have this data, you can then prioritize transit locations to serve the most pax and get them to their destinations or an easy transfer if the route system is employed (highly recommended).

2) Implement MASS TRANSIT. OKC is currently too hyper-focused on local and destination transit (which tends to attract lower incomes in the inner city btw) that we are missing the bulk of transit likely users, those in and near the suburbs who would commute in. If we complete step 1, identification - then we should implement Park N Ride, Transit Centers, and Commuter points where a MASS of people in a density cluster could walk/park/eventually local bus to said commuter point and the mass transit aka commuter bus bring them into the city. If enough of the masses needs to go to a suburb and/or destination then there could be commuter routes serving those spots. To me, this is what is missing the most in OKC, the 1st and 2nd miles of transit for the bulk of the population of the metro area. Solve this and there is an instant boost in ridership far beyond what's being obtained currently with the inner city/destination focus.

3) More "local" bus options: As steps 1 and 2 mature, we need to get more local buses serving those commuter points. These would be routes local to that neighborhood that would not go downtown but instead would feed the commuter point and riders would transfer to downtown or popular destination by the commuter bus. The local bus is the 1st mile but I think in a city like OKC it needs to be implemented after step 2 above (the 2nd mile) since our density clusters are scattered and end destinations are likely just as scattered.

I imagine just completing these 3 steps would go a very long way to inviting transit usage for MOST of the posters in this thread who've mentioned they don't have a bus that connects to Embark or one that goes to their job on Broadway/Britton. The surveys would identify these riders and this destination, implementing the route would encourage ridership (why not, right?) which would feed the overall system.

Now, IMO we are doing the exact same thing with the streetcar. Step 1 has been completed (sort of); the destinations/venues were identified and the route was selected based on efficient usage of track. Step 2 is being completed with the trains being bought and the track being laid. Step 3 moreso depends on other modes (walking, biking, scooter, local bus, eventual light rail, eventual commuter bus, eventual commuter rail, etc) because the streetcar is the last mile for most journeys. The first mile is what we need to work on next WHILE we expand the streetcar to create an urban network, the bus system and streetcar are not competitors - we just need the same level of analytics and political involvement in the bus system that we've had with the streetcar to make the transit system as a whole what most of us really want - and there wouldn't need to be much moving to 'existing' transit stops.

[HOT ROD]

catch, in most parts of the world streetcars are known as trams.

'Streetcar' is a North American thing.

[catch22]

catch, in most parts of the world streetcars are known as trams.

'Streetcar' is a North American thing.

True. But this thing has been in the works for 10 years under the name Streetcar and the only people calling it teams and trolleys are the detractors.

[PaddyShack]

catch, in most parts of the world streetcars are known as trams.

'Streetcar' is a North American thing.

Most of my friends from Austria and eastern bloc countries with these call the newer models streetcars where as the older models still in operation are called trams, never thought to ask why the differentiate between the two as they serve the same purpose.

[PaddyShack]

You make great points and it would be great if more rode the bus. Maybe if they had used the tram money on bus system then riders increase?

My issue is the tram will be traffic jammed after Thunder games and 3 times each work day for the morning/lunch/afterwork rush. Its a very limited route which cannot be changed if its wrong. I hope it works but if people don’t ride the bus what makes the tram any different ridership wise? It will have the newness riders but once it wears off you have limited audience.

So in my world had we spent $150,000,000 on bus system just imagine the reach it would have. And could adjust routes based on any factor like road work or better stops. For that money the bus system would work but now we are splitting the money into 2 systems that will each require money. And because tram is newer the bus system gets less money/focus is my guess.

I want the tram to work but feel the bus system failed due to not putting money and resources into it. And in my opinion the tram project should have been a bus project. And then once you get bus working it feeds bricktown and the tram would have been a next step afterwards.

My other fear is Maps itself. Its transformed this city and been a huge success. But if tram fails that would be a huge blow to get future projects passed. If people feel their money was spent unwisely they will stop supportimg Maps type projects.

I hope I’m wrong and tram works but I work close to downtown and no tram and when I drive over for lunch the roads are packed with cars. No bus. And those roads are same path as tram, so as much as I/others sit in traffic jam so will tram. Had we increased buses to my area that would be a better option. And $150,000,000 would have done that.

I hope I’m wrong we all need tram to work for the next projects down the road. Someday we will be asked to help fund a new basketball arena too. Not sure blhow many years it will be but we’ll need support when that day comes. A failed tram will hamper those type asks in the future, so we all need tram to work.

Don't buses get caught up in traffic too? The streetcar acts no differently than buses with the exception that one knows exactly where the streetcar is going to go.

[TheTravellers]

True. But this thing has been in the works for 10 years under the name Streetcar and the only people calling it teams and trolleys are the detractors.

Or the ignorant, which isn't an insult or a bad thing (unless you stay willfully ignorant), because everybody's ignorant about some things in some aspect, and it can be fixed by education.

[PaddyShack]

Just one point for people who mentioned the bus doesn't run where they live -- and I ask this sincerely -- have you considered moving? I have a lot of conversations with friends who talk to me like they're stuck wherever they live.... as if someone forced for them to live there. I'm not telling others what to do, but there are more walkable, bikeable, busable options available. It's a lifestyle , environmental, economic, and personal choice, but it is no doubt a choice. Again, if you have a good reason for living where you live, I understand that. I'm just curious.

My wife and I have been looking around to moving, but we can never find the right deal. We are in a great financial position in our current house, so it is tough to find something where we won't be taking a few steps backwards. Also, the bus that runs by my work is along a loop and does not operate in both ways, meaning that I would either have to choose to live where my commute to work is short, but my commute home is longer or vice versa...

[Urbanized]

Or the ignorant, which isn't an insult or a bad thing (unless you stay willfully ignorant), because everybody's ignorant about some things in some aspect, and it can be fixed by education.

If you're going out of your way to be kind you can call it "uninformed."

[Urban Pioneer]

I'm not sure why the moderators changed the title I originally gave this thread. If it is going to be changed, can we change it to OKC Streetcar for search engine purposes? Thanks.