Streetcar

[LakeEffect]

In a word - yes. I will be surprised if I'm not corrected on this, but I am aware of firm-ish plans to extend the Streetcar from near NW 10th and Walnut, west to Classen, then north to a point on NW 63rd St near the BNSF rail line, as well as an eastern extension along Reno from Santa Fe Station to Sooner, at which point the streetcar would follow the former OCAA / Santa Fe track diagonally toward Tinker, ending in a stop along Douglas, just south of I-40. These extensions are dependent upon ACOG's (the Association of Central Oklahoma Governments) efforts to successfully establish a Regional Transit Authority and secure a successful vote for funding; right now the RTA is still in the planning phases but as far as I'm aware we're getting close to formally establishing the RTA. Here's some more information about what they want to do: http://www.acogok.org/commuter-corri...nsit-rail-mpo/

As far as city plans go, I know extensions to Capitol Hill and to the Health Sciences Center/Capitol Complex area have been discussed but I have no clue how much - if any - planning has gone into making those routes happen.

These won't be streetcar extensions - they might end up being commuter rail, light rail, or bus rapid transit, but modern streetcars like ours are not intended for the distances you've mentioned.

[Urban Pioneer]

These won't be streetcar extensions - they might end up being commuter rail, light rail, or bus rapid transit, but modern streetcars like ours are not intended for the distances you've mentioned.

Actually, he is right. The Alternatives Analysis "preferred modes" in these areas discussed calls for "Rapid Streetcar" or essentially an extension of the OKC Streetcar System that behaves like Light Rail. The streetcars would operate at higher speeds, have greater distances between stops, and in some of these areas use isolated right-of-way separated from automobiles with crossing arms at intersections.

[Urban Pioneer]

Anything that you can tell us about at this time?

Expect major steps to be taken by each City Council to formally join the RTA. We should have most major cities formally joined by the time the streetcar ribbon cutting occurs.

[PaddyShack]

Expect major steps to be taken by each City Council to formally join the RTA. We should have most major cities formally joined by the time the streetcar ribbon cutting occurs.

Which cities are included or expected to join the RTA? How far our are we looking here?

[Urban Pioneer]

OKC, Del City, Midwest City, Edmond, Moore, Norman.

[PaddyShack]

OKC, Del City, Midwest City, Edmond, Moore, Norman.

Is the RTA open to other cities joining? Or is it up to the cities on joining? As in, why wouldn't Yukon/El Reno/Mustang and Guthrie not want to join?

[Urban Pioneer]

Is the RTA open to other cities joining? Or is it up to the cities on joining? As in, why wouldn't Yukon/El Reno/Mustang and Guthrie not want to join?

Any city can join. Even Tulsa. We have however based our governing structure moving forward from an appointee stand point on those cities actively engaged.

[David]

Expect major steps to be taken by each City Council to formally join the RTA. We should have most major cities formally joined by the time the streetcar ribbon cutting occurs.

Awesome.

[David]

This seems relevant for this thread: Heartland incentives deal advances

A project tied in part to the presence of the Oklahoma City Streetcar moved forward Tuesday.

The Oklahoma City Economic Development Trust gave its go-ahead for negotiating an agreement to provide up to $1 million in job-creation incentives to Heartland Payment Systems.

Heartland is building a new seven-story headquarters in Automobile Alley, and company officials said having the streetcar line running past the front door was a factor in choosing the location.

[seajohn]

(Jumps into thread on page 294 of discussion)

"Why a streetcar, am i rite?!"

Please accept my apologies. I will now go read 294 pages and learn the answer to my foolish question. As FFDP says, "C'est la vie, adios, good riddance, etc."!

[jedicurt]

Please accept my apologies. I will now go read 294 pages and learn the answer to my foolish question. As FFDP says, "C'est la vie, adios, good riddance, etc."!

to give you the TL;DR of the thread. there is lots of evidence that streetcars can help to stimulate growth and development. bus stops typically don't have the same economic impact... so we really have to wait to see the actual long term benefits it can bring rather than just increasing number of buses

[catch22]

Now that the streetcar is wandering the streets of downtown (with a snotty cartoon on the side threatening to dismember your car if you don't park inside the white lines), I have to ask..."What is the point?" How was this a better choice than buying a few more buses dedicated to following the same routes as the streetcars will be taking? I expected the streetcars to look like a SanFran streetcar, but they just look like long bidirectional buses. I don't see any tourists looking at them and saying "Cool, let's get a picture on the bussy-looking streetcar!"

I'm just not seeing how this was in any way a smart expenditure of money.

As long as you aren’t parking like this person you shouldn’t have anything to worry about it.

https://twitter.com/okcstreetcar/sta...532835328?s=21

[David]

Please accept my apologies. I will now go read 294 pages and learn the answer to my foolish question. As FFDP says, "C'est la vie, adios, good riddance, etc."!

You could also just read *this* page for stuff like the Heartland Payment Systems article I linked immediately before your latest post.

[Laramie]

The streetcar project on 4th & Broadway seems to be close to complete. It has created a navigation nightmare from 4th thru N.W. 13 on Broadway--especially during the traffic peak hours.

[hoya]

Please accept my apologies. I will now go read 294 pages and learn the answer to my foolish question. As FFDP says, "C'est la vie, adios, good riddance, etc."!

Boils down to two things.

1) Locally, buses have a bad reputation, and people don't want to ride them. In OKC, buses might as well have a big sign that says "poor people only". Streetcars are considered "cooler" and we are much more likely to have people give them a try.

2) Streetcars have a sense of permanence. You can move a bus stop by just moving a little sign. Bus stops don't bring in any kind of new development, because you might just move the stop tomorrow. With a streetcar you've got rails in the ground, and it's a much bigger pain in the butt to move them. Nationally streetcar lines generally lead to increased property values and a much higher level of urban development. There are some indications of this already taking place in OKC.

I suspect that there's a third aspect as well. Part of the goal of the downtown streetcar is (probably) to give OKC people a positive experience with public transit. Mentioned earlier on this page is the Regional Transit Association (RTA). OKC, Norman, Edmond, Moore, Del City, and Midwest City are trying to get a metro area rail system going. Think of the downtown streetcar as a "proof of concept" system that convinces people that mass transit can work in Oklahoma. But you can't do that with buses -- you need rail lines here to make enough of an impact.

[gopokes88]

Boils down to two things.

1) Locally, buses have a bad reputation, and people don't want to ride them. In OKC, buses might as well have a big sign that says "poor people only". Streetcars are considered "cooler" and we are much more likely to have people give them a try.

2) Streetcars have a sense of permanence. You can move a bus stop by just moving a little sign. Bus stops don't bring in any kind of new development, because you might just move the stop tomorrow. With a streetcar you've got rails in the ground, and it's a much bigger pain in the butt to move them. Nationally streetcar lines generally lead to increased property values and a much higher level of urban development. There are some indications of this already taking place in OKC.

I suspect that there's a third aspect as well. Part of the goal of the downtown streetcar is (probably) to give OKC people a positive experience with public transit. Mentioned earlier on this page is the Regional Transit Association (RTA). OKC, Norman, Edmond, Moore, Del City, and Midwest City are trying to get a metro area rail system going. Think of the downtown streetcar as a "proof of concept" system that convinces people that mass transit can work in Oklahoma. But you can't do that with buses -- you need rail lines here to make enough of an impact.

1 & 2 are excellent points that are spot on.

If you are investing in a restaurant/retail/business/etc, do you want road access or road AND streetcar access. It's the later and it drives up property values. Higher property values leads to higher density.

[David]

We've seen multiple projects announced that just happened to include the streetcar line in their renderings. That is not an accident, and is an indication of how the entire system builds on itself.

[HOT ROD]

Boils down to two things.

1) Locally, buses have a bad reputation, and people don't want to ride them. In OKC, buses might as well have a big sign that says "poor people only". Streetcars are considered "cooler" and we are much more likely to have people give them a try.

2) Streetcars have a sense of permanence. You can move a bus stop by just moving a little sign. Bus stops don't bring in any kind of new development, because you might just move the stop tomorrow. With a streetcar you've got rails in the ground, and it's a much bigger pain in the butt to move them. Nationally streetcar lines generally lead to increased property values and a much higher level of urban development. There are some indications of this already taking place in OKC.

I suspect that there's a third aspect as well. Part of the goal of the downtown streetcar is (probably) to give OKC people a positive experience with public transit. Mentioned earlier on this page is the Regional Transit Association (RTA). OKC, Norman, Edmond, Moore, Del City, and Midwest City are trying to get a metro area rail system going. Think of the downtown streetcar as a "proof of concept" system that convinces people that mass transit can work in Oklahoma. But you can't do that with buses -- you need rail lines here to make enough of an impact.

Hoya, these are fantastic points. May I expand a little on point 3?

Not only is the downtown streetcar sort of a proving point for the larger RTD but I suspect it will be the showcase to say - build the commuter lines because once you get downtown there's ALREADY rail in place; the so-called final leg of transit already exists. We would not have the problem of building a commuter system that drops you off downtown and then what? To me, having the streetcar up and running aides and guides the RTD because it proves to the other metro cities that the OKC metro area is/can embrace mass transit but also it aides the RTD itself by giving commuter rail its much needed cousin to finish the job moving people once they get into the city.

As to development, all people have to do is consider the amount of projects and proposals BEFORE the streetcar or MAPS 3 and consider AFTER the streetcar and MAPS 3 was announced; particularly the route of the streetcar. One does not have to be a scientist to discover the transit oriented development that has occurred along and near the current streetcar route. I think it is good that we did downtown first, again as the showcase but also it's the densest part of the city/metro in population AND amenities/venues, employment, you name it; so it has to work. Expansions would help to 'expand' the city where development would follow the transit. But we had to have the core done first in order for this to be successful just like how other cities *that were/are successful* developed their rail systems.

[HOT ROD]

I also wanted to say, I have nothing against the bus system and have always advocated for OKC to fully develop a hub and spoke system that relied less on destination but moreso on the route itself for the local inner city. This is rail thinking, the ROUTE is what's important to the public/development so if we have bus routes that exude permanence then development likely could also follow. Having the current (and especially the past) system where local bus routes were/are based on the final destination; you wouldn't take the route itself too seriously because the city could easily change the way to get there or drop it altogether (as what happened to the airport 'route').

Of course, rail is more permanent but I still think OKC should do more "23rd Crosstown" or "44th-Downtown" type local bus routes more than the "Penn Square" or "MetroTech" routes whose path could easily change. There's no argument how the 23rd Crosstown would go or 44th to Downtown, so the entire trip becomes a permanent destination (similar in ways to a rail line) rather than the final stop.

[zefferoni]

As long as you aren’t parking like this person you shouldn’t have anything to worry about it.

https://twitter.com/okcstreetcar/sta...532835328?s=21

Haha I was at a work conference at Vast and watched that all play out during one of the sessions. The streetcar was stuck for something like an hour. Right as the tow truck was backing up to hook up the car, the owner ran out and moved it.

[Anonymous.]

Will there be additional signage or notification on the parking meter for areas adjacent to streetcar rails? Or is it just use your brain and get inside the line type of deal?

[David]

Hoya, these are fantastic points. May I expand a little on point 3?

Not only is the downtown streetcar sort of a proving point for the larger RTD but I suspect it will be the showcase to say - build the commuter lines because once you get downtown there's ALREADY rail in place; the so-called final leg of transit already exists. We would not have the problem of building a commuter system that drops you off downtown and then what? To me, having the streetcar up and running aides and guides the RTD because it proves to the other metro cities that the OKC metro area is/can embrace mass transit but also it aides the RTD itself by giving commuter rail its much needed cousin to finish the job moving people once they get into the city.

As to development, all people have to do is consider the amount of projects and proposals BEFORE the streetcar or MAPS 3 and consider AFTER the streetcar and MAPS 3 was announced; particularly the route of the streetcar. One does not have to be a scientist to discover the transit oriented development that has occurred along and near the current streetcar route. I think it is good that we did downtown first, again as the showcase but also it's the densest part of the city/metro in population AND amenities/venues, employment, you name it; so it has to work. Expansions would help to 'expand' the city where development would follow the transit. But we had to have the core done first in order for this to be successful just like how other cities *that were/are successful* developed their rail systems.

We're solving the last mile problem in advance.

[baralheia]

Will there be additional signage or notification on the parking meter for areas adjacent to streetcar rails? Or is it just use your brain and get inside the line type of deal?

There is additional signage posted already (at least in Bricktown); it's visible in the picture on the OKC Streetcar's Twitter account that catch22 posted a link to (https://twitter.com/OKCStreetcar/sta...34306532835328).

Specifically, the sign reads "NO PARKING OVER WHITE LINE".

[Urbanized]

Haha I was at a work conference at Vast and watched that all play out during one of the sessions. The streetcar was stuck for something like an hour. Right as the tow truck was backing up to hook up the car, the owner ran out and moved it.

Right now since there is no requirement to keep to schedule I'm guessing that they are slow-playing the actual tow. But once regular service stops I'm sure that at least for a while they will have a tow truck on call and likely have supervisors cruising line ahead of trains to spot violations. This is how it has been done elsewhere I believe. I'm guessing it once regular service stops it will happen WITH A QUICKNESS.

[catch22]

They could just install large cattle plows like you see on diesel locomotives hauling freight.