OKC Regional Transit System

[dheinz44]

Crossroads mall would be the perfect stop for a park and ride location. There's also a track that splits off right there and goes directly into Tinker.

[jedicurt]

are they going to double track all of it as part of this process? because i can already hear people saying they will never use it again, if they get on a train that has to stop for 15 minutes while another train passes.

[BDP]

Are people forgetting about 41 home games a year for the Thunder? I, personally, know an least a dozen people who drive in from Edmond for every game. I would guess this would drop at Santa Fe and people would walk to the arena from there. I know traffic isn't as bad as OU games, but there are a lot more of them.

stlokc mentioned them and it's certainly part of the equation, but I don't know if it's enough to convince voters. I'm just guessing, though.

How many of your Edmond friends can / would walk to the proposed stations? Or do you think they would drive / park and ride? I know that's anecdotal, but just curious what you think?

Just to be clear, I'm not in any way trying to run down the idea of commuter rail in OKC. I'm just trying to imagine what it would really look like for most potentials users. And, ultimately, I think as a commuter oriented solution, I think it ultimately has to work for daily commuters, right?

[BDP]

The last mile part of the equation is already starting to be addressed in multiple locations already. You have fairly dense housing/amenities/employment/entertainment clusters already popping up in areas that would be prime locations for commuter rail stops.

It would be interesting to see what the population and work force is within a mile radius for each of the proposed stops. I imagine that's the farthest most would walk to catch a train every day, right?

[warreng88]

stlokc mentioned them and it's certainly part of the equation, but I don't know if it's enough to convince voters. I'm just guessing, though.

How many of your Edmond friends can / would walk to the proposed stations? Or do you think they would drive / park and ride? I know that's anecdotal, but just curious what you think?

Just to be clear, I'm not in any way trying to run down the idea of commuter rail in OKC. I'm just trying to imagine what it would really look like for most potentials users. And, ultimately, I think as a commuter oriented solution, I think it ultimately has to work for daily commuters, right?

I understand where you are coming from and appreciate the honest questions. A lot of people can get heated on this board over stuff like this.

Honestly, none of them. But, I could see some ubering to a park and ride, taking the train, drinking at the arena, train back and ubering home. I know people who have ubered from downtown to almost Guthrie, so I could see that becoming an option.

To other people's points, taking mass transit needs to be more beneficial than driving their car. Years ago, I worked at 63rd and NW Expressway and lived at NW 23rd and May. My car had to be in the shop and I was trying to figure out how I could get to work via mass transit. It turns out, it would have taken me over an hour to get five miles because the only route out to NW expressway originated downtown so I would have to take a bus downtown and transfer out to NW bound bus. I am guessing things have changed since that time and it's more efficient (maybe not), but the point still stands that there has to be some sort of benefit to riding the train.

Let's be honest, we are no NYC, Chicago, London, Paris, etc who all have very extensive mass transit systems due to the need and density. I think our city needs a better mass transit system, but I am not sure people will vote for it.

[GoGators]

It would be interesting to see what the population and work force is within a mile radius for each of the proposed stops. I imagine that's the farthest most would walk to catch a train every day, right?

It is not a number that is where it needs to be right now, but that number is steadily increasing independently of commuter rail discussion. That is a promising sign in my view. These areas are setting themselves up incredibly well to reap massive benefits if/when the commuter rail does end up happening down the road.

This is why I think it is important for the commuter rail to focus on connecting dense, dynamic areas to each other and discard the thought of making a bunch of park and rides. designing public transit you have to drive to is setting the entire thing up for failure.

[BDP]

I understand where you are coming from and appreciate the honest questions. A lot of people can get heated on this board over stuff like this.

I appreciate the discussion and that's why I wanted to be clear I'm not adverse to the concept. lol

I'd love to see it happen, but I'd love to see it work even more. When these things don't pan out, it can actually set it back decades.

Honestly, none of them. But, I could see some ubering to a park and ride, taking the train, drinking at the arena, train back and ubering home. I know people who have ubered from downtown to almost Guthrie, so I could see that becoming an option.

Yeah. There are definitely a lot of benefits to taking a train to go out. Parking and safety not the least among them and I can definitely see the uber/ train working for that. I'd probably do it, especially if we're talking Fri / Sat night. That also would mean it would have to be well managed to accommodate those inconsistent surges in demand. Demand would probably not justify running the trains beyond 10pm most weeknights.

[BDP]

It is not a number that is where it needs to be right now, but that number is steadily increasing independently of commuter rail discussion. That is a promising sign in my view. These areas are setting themselves up incredibly well to reap massive benefits if/when the commuter rail does end up happening down the road.

This is why I think it is important for the commuter rail to focus on connecting dense, dynamic areas to each other and discard the thought of making a bunch of park and rides. designing public transit you have to drive to is setting the entire thing up for failure.

Good points.

And a good plan with that focus may actually help development happen in the meantime in such a way that makes the service more successful at launch.

[Just the facts]

This is going to be a commuter train - taking people to work in the morning and home after work. It isn't going to be a late-night or weekend party train. For comparison sakes here is Sunrail's schedule in Orlando (no late evening or weekend service)

https://sunrail.com/schedules/northbound/

[HOT ROD]

why are they only considering sales tax, why not do a mix? Property tax is the biggest bang for the buck without impacting most, gas tax is obvious since it's about time the "transportation" department dedicated funds to pax rail, and they could add a RTD assessment to vehicle tabs.

I'd recommend the following breakout:

1) 0.05% sales tax, with an initial 0.5% sales tax for capital expenditure (stations, trains, mtc bldg)
2) 10 cents per gallon as the primary operations fund
3) some level of property tax (not really sure what to recommend, but something to get funding with minimal impact)
4) $3.50 license tab fee, $5.00 plate fee, $50.00 OKC Commuter Rail special plate
5) the state contribute funds for rail enhancement/purchast along the route(s)

This model would be the least impactful to citizens but provide the most benefit of funds. Also, we wouldn't need to wait for a MAPS style sales tax collection to get things moving. Just need to political will and savvy to spread the "burden".

I'd also do similar if I were OKC with regard to the streetcar (try to use/get alternates to JUST maps sales tax). I could also see/recommend a Norman Sooner streetcar system to be built using a funding mix, particularly the OU campus to downtown.

[HOT ROD]

This is going to be a commuter train - taking people to work in the morning and home after work. It isn't going to be a late-night or weekend party train. For comparison sakes here is Sunrail's schedule in Orlando (no late evening or weekend service)

https://sunrail.com/schedules/northbound/

You're correct, but OKC could run trains as often as they want. Chicago runs theirs all day/night. Here in Seattle, its Commuter weekday but also during Seahawks games.

I could see OKC doing a sort of hybrid Commuter Rail schedule which not only focused on rush hours but also on special events (OU football, OKC Thunder games, OKC festivals/events). Get the most use out of it that makes sense.

As I mentioned in another thread, having Commuter Rail will be especially useful if/when they replace the I-35 Crossroads of America bridges.

[HOT ROD]

I understand where you are coming from and appreciate the honest questions. A lot of people can get heated on this board over stuff like this.

Honestly, none of them. But, I could see some ubering to a park and ride, taking the train, drinking at the arena, train back and ubering home. I know people who have ubered from downtown to almost Guthrie, so I could see that becoming an option.

t.

You just pinpointed why OKC's transit system is a disaster being propped up. Instead of having ONLY downtown to destination routes the city should have more crosstowns to allow for transfers. Going to/from downtown just to go 5 miles away is very small town struggling type of bus system not something a 1.5million metro should have. EMBARK (and OKC transportation planners in general) needs to think like a big city and stop "just getting by".

They're building "brt" which is really a crosstown route with elevated platforms. Not saying we shouldn't do BRT but a real one would go down the middle of the boulevard and have station platforms (also in the middle unless unfeasible); that way, the RAPID part could be achieved. OKC should be building normal routes like its doing the "brt", running them along major corridors then turn around the other way unless the corridor runs into downtown.

I recommened they add more crosstowns (without downtown terminus) to add to the existing routing during a recent survey. Let's see if they agree or keep adding more to/from downtown and continue to get low ratings on transit viability.

[Sonicthunder]

Not entirely the trains they’re most likely are going to use a mix between light rail and commuter trains.
They will run at a much higher frequency (every 15-30 minutes) and we have a higher top speed then commuter trains
The interior of the trains is more like a commuter rail
The tinker line will likely be dedicated BRT that can be upgraded to light rail in the future

[Just the facts]

I can certainly appreciate all the enthusiasm but the reality is for the first 3 years OKC commuter rail will probably run 2 (maybe 3) inbound from Norman/Edmond in the morning and 2 (maybe 3) outbound trains in the evening. I wouldn't get hopes up for weekend, Game trains, or any trains after 6:30pm.

[Rover]

I can certainly appreciate all the enthusiasm but the reality is for the first 3 years OKC commuter rail will probably run 2 (maybe 3) inbound from Norman/Edmond in the morning and 2 (maybe 3) outbound trains in the evening. I wouldn't get hopes up for weekend, Game trains, or any trains after 6:30pm.

Is this schedule part of the proposal, or just speculation?

[TheTravellers]

... Chicago runs theirs all day/night....

Actually, they don't, at least they didn't use to run Metra trains after about midnight on all lines back when I lived there. Was a pain for some late concerts since I worked downtown and lived in the west suburbs and used the BNSF line to commute - had to get back home by train, then drive out to the concert so we could make it back after the last train had left Union Station.

[TheTravellers]

It would be interesting to see what the population and work force is within a mile radius for each of the proposed stops. I imagine that's the farthest most would walk to catch a train every day, right?

A mile is being waaaaaaaay generous, I'd expect a few blocks at most for most OKCitians.

[Just the facts]

Is this schedule part of the proposal, or just speculation?

Educated speculation on my part. You would be hard pressed to find commuter rail systems that run outside business hours, especially at start-up.

[PhiAlpha]

I can certainly appreciate all the enthusiasm but the reality is for the first 3 years OKC commuter rail will probably run 2 (maybe 3) inbound from Norman/Edmond in the morning and 2 (maybe 3) outbound trains in the evening. I wouldn't get hopes up for weekend, Game trains, or any trains after 6:30pm.

Yeah. I mean I can’t see the logic in running the train multiple times for 6 days out of the year that might be able to cover a sizable chunk of the operating expenses for the entire year. Why would the metro transit authority overseeing it and currently clawing for funding ever even consider such a thing?

What other cities are you basing that on? Do any of them have a situation in which a large percentage of 80k-100k people travel along the exact corridor that a commuter rail line services (and cause massive traffic jams) for 6 days per year? Assuming they use the same line, ROW or at least follow the same path as the BNSF line…the thing could even drop all of those people off under half a mile from the stadium. Would almost be fiscally irresponsible not to consider that as an option.

[Jake]

Yeah. I mean I can’t see the logic in running the train multiple times for 6 days out of the year that might be able to cover a sizable chunk of the operating expenses for the entire year. Why would the metro transit authority overseeing it and currently clawing for funding ever even consider such a thing?

What other cities are you basing that on? Do any of them have a situation in which a large percentage of 80k-100k people travel along the exact corridor that a commuter rail line services (and cause massive traffic jams) for 6 days per year? Assuming they use the same line, ROW or at least follow the same path as the BNSF line…the thing could even drop all of those people off under half a mile from the stadium. Would almost be fiscally irresponsible not to consider that as an option.

Isn't a proposed stop in Norman literally listed as the "OU Special Event" stop?

[Just the facts]

Actually, they don't, at least they didn't use to run Metra trains after about midnight on all lines back when I lived there. Was a pain for some late concerts since I worked downtown and lived in the west suburbs and used the BNSF line to commute - had to get back home by train, then drive out to the concert so we could make it back after the last train had left Union Station.

It is the same way now. I take the BNSF line a couple of time per year and after the evening rush trains only run once per hour, and that is on a line that has 63,000 riders per day.

[josefromtulsa]

These are the stations they proposed. Most are pretty self explanatory, but do we know where the "North OKC" and "South Norman" stations would be?

Since they have one planned for NW 63rd and the other downtown i would assume North OKC would be in the middle so around NW 30th street. But thats where the flynn yard is so it might be difficult. A station there and a new ped bridge over i-235 would be great.

[warreng88]

Since they have one planned for NW 63rd and the other downtown i would assume North OKC would be in the middle so around NW 30th street. But thats where the flynn yard is so it might be difficult. A station there and a new ped bridge over i-235 would be great.

I was about to say a stop at 23rd would be sorely needed due to proximity of the state capitol. There are bus stations on the east and west side of the highway that could take people to and from the capitol.

[Just the facts]

If they don't stop at Brittany it is a huge missed opportunity. I'm not a fan of the park and rides either and some systems are getting rid of them, and replacing the large parking lots with housing.

For example:
https://oaklandside.org/2023/04/14/b...ridge-station/

[fortpatches]

It looks like they aren't simply "replacing the large parking lots with housing".

The one you linked to specifically, they cannot replace most of the parking lot with housing since the parking lot is under the freeway. Also, they aren't looking at getting rid of all the spots, just going vertical. From your example:
> Currently, the parcels in question are used for parking, containing 140 of the 886 total spaces at the station. According to BART, about a third of the parking lot typically sits empty these days, both because of the decrease in ridership and because a majority of Rockridge riders arrive at the station by methods other than driving.
Other BART locations there have build parking garages along with residential:
Transit-Oriented Development (TOD) - MacArthur | bart.gov