Gold Dome

[Pete]

I mean maybe they do but most of the neighborhood is far enough away from this that they aren’t going to care and should have enough parking that it keeps too many people from parking in the neighborhood. There is a full block separating this from the far northwestern edge of Mesta Park and most of the residents there are just as tired of looking at a dilapidated building on a prominent street corner as everyone is. I was on the board for Mesta Park for a little over two years and we supported every development proposed on 23rd while I was there. Complaints were just from a few delusional individuals who bought homes backing up to or close to empty lots on 23rd street and expected them to stay that way forever. We often told those people we’d address their concerns with the developers and laughed at them behind their backs lol. I can’t remember a time after Guyutes and Cajun Corner (or the previous proposed restaurant) that even individuals in Mesta Park protested anything and the primary complaint about that pre-tower theater music venue proposed a few doors down was that it had little to no parking included. 12-14 years of full scale redevelopment and seeing the benefits from it has gotten people used to it.

I've already had people complaining to me. Here's a sample -- the horrors of people walking down your street!

would you want your neighborhood street full of cars every weekend and lots of individuals walking up and down your street. No you wouldn’t.

[PhiAlpha]

I've already had people complaining to me.

Yeah individuals like before but not the neighborhood as a whole.

Still surprising at this point.


Edit: LOL at your edit! How dare they?!?!

Easy answer for all of these people has always been…you don’t want to be affected by developments? Don’t buy a house on the edge of the neighborhood and if you do, you’ve accepted what comes along with it.

[Pete]

I love the people that buy a home right next to a big commercial area that is largely vacant, then scream bloody murder when the area starts to get new tenants/owners.

The value of all those homes has skyrocketed precisely due to everything you can walk to.

It reminds me of a neighbor of mine (an attorney) pitched a big legal fit about OAK even though he lived several blocks away. Then, when he went to sell his home, the primary selling point was proximity to a "walkable mixed-use shopping area". He ended making a huge profit.

[Pete]

BTW, there are tons of surface lots within a couple of blocks of the Gold Dome.

Just one block south you have 5 big lots for the 2000 Classen complex which are never close to full, even during working hours.

Then a block to the north, you have two big lots for First Presbyterian which never see many cars apart from Sunday mornings.

And then of course you not only have Lyft and Uber but the new BRT stops directly adjacent.

[PhiAlpha]

BTW, there are tons of surface lots within a couple of blocks of the Gold Dome.

Just one block south you have 5 big lots for the 2000 Classen complex which are never close to full, even during working hours.

Then a block to the north, you have two big lots for First Presbyterian which never see many cars apart from Sunday mornings.

And then of course you not only have Lyft and Uber but the new BRT stops directly adjacent.

That was my thought about why there shouldn't be much resistence to this. Plenty of parking and it doesn't even back up to the neighborhood. Surely they can make a deal with Rick Dowell (or who ever owns those lots for the office towers) to use those lots after hours.

[PhiAlpha]

I love the people that buy a home right next to a big commercial area that is largely vacant, then scream bloody murder when the area starts to get new tenants/owners.

The value of all those homes has skyrocketed precisely due to everything you can walk to.

It reminds me of a neighbor of mine (an attorney) pitched a big legal fit about OAK even though he lived several blocks away. Then, when he went to sell his home, the primary selling point was proximity to a "walkable mixed-use shopping area". He ended making a huge profit.

Pretty damn hilarious given that most of the people living there did so to be in the middle of all of the cool stuff being developed. With the sky rocketing home prices, I'm not sure why anyone who is not okay with being in an active area hasn't moved to the suburbs yet.

[citywokchinesefood]

Pretty damn hilarious given that most of the people living there did so to be in the middle of all of the cool stuff being developed. With the sky rocketing home prices, I'm not sure why anyone who is not okay with being in an active area hasn't moved to the suburbs yet.

When you live in a city you should absolutely expect to sometimes be inconvenienced. The problem is when the inconvenience becomes a cost for you. People stealing and breaking things, screaming and being drunken idiots at odd hours. Most people are nimby assholes that just discourage development and complain. They aren't prepared to take the steps necessary to properly discourage people from ****ing them over. If I lived in the neighborhood and I had a lot of people parking on the street to go to this venue causing problems and breaking ****. I would follow the venue schedule and the vehicles that were not my neighbors would have all their valve stems removed. I understand some of you may be shocked and offended towards behavior like this. I have had my properties ****ed with by feral homeless people and drunken idiots enough that I really do not give a ****. **** with me and I will **** with you worse. People are not reasonable these days, and I am absolutely done with the absolute unaccountability of many people and how they interact with others. I am fortunate to not work in the service industry anymore, from what my friends have told me most of you are assholes.

[The]

When you live in a city you should absolutely expect to sometimes be inconvenienced. The problem is when the inconvenience becomes a cost for you. People stealing and breaking things, screaming and being drunken idiots at odd hours. Most people are nimby assholes that just discourage development and complain. They aren't prepared to take the steps necessary to properly discourage people from ****ing them over. If I lived in the neighborhood and I had a lot of people parking on the street to go to this venue causing problems and breaking ****. I would follow the venue schedule and the vehicles that were not my neighbors would have all their valve stems removed. I understand some of you may be shocked and offended towards behavior like this. I have had my properties ****ed with by feral homeless people and drunken idiots enough that I really do not give a ****. **** with me and I will **** with you worse. People are not reasonable these days, and I am absolutely done with the absolute unaccountability of many people and how they interact with others. I am fortunate to not work in the service industry anymore, from what my friends have told me most of you are assholes.

You big mad?

[Midtowner]

If you take on this project, they'll give you $3M. You just need to pitch in the remaining $7M+. What do you think? Not everyone is a fan of strip malls and gas stations.

These days, even strip malls and gas stations seem to get TIF.

Either a project is economically viable or it isn't. $3M is a lot of public money to put towards a private development--especially one the local neighborhoods don't want. This isn't a corporate relocation or really even a situation where there's much to say this will be a profitable project. There are everal music venues of a similar size in the immediate area which did not receive TIF to be functional like the Tower Theatre, the Criterion, Will Rogers, etc.

We have an underfunded urban school system with declining enrollment to think of. The City, which approves these TIFs does so mostly at the expense of other political entities and not the city budget. The City will financially come out a winner if this project is successful because they will collect far more in sales tax than they would have in ad valorem on 128 mills or whatever it is.

And this operator doesn't know the first thing about music venues from what I can gather. The article in the Oklahoman where Holt is touting the obvious need for TIF here mentions that the operator was originally interested in the First Christian Church site (the egg church) but was surprised to see it torn down in 2022. Now I've played the egg church. The acoustics were insanely bad. In no universe should it have ever been considered for a music venue. I have questions about the acoustics in this venue, and I'm sure as mentioned above, they can work that out. I'm just not sure that's a good use of taxpayer money--or rather money being taken from gains which should be going to our school system.

And let's not forget, hasn't this site already been used to attempt to scam the city out of resourcse by that O&G company which financed the property where the CEO went to prison?

[Oski]

I'm just not sure that's a good use of taxpayer money--or rather money being taken from gains which should be going to our school system.

How can we be sure the school system isn’t wasting taxpayer money? While investing in the education of the next generation is undoubtedly important, we can't assume that every single dollar spent will always yield positive results, and taxpayer money must always flow into that pool first.

[Midtowner]

How can we be sure the school system isn’t wasting taxpayer money? While investing in the education of the next generation is undoubtedly important, we can't assume that every single dollar spent will always yield positive results, and taxpayer money must always flow into that pool first.

That's a stupid reason to take money out of the system--some generalized angst that something might not be spent the way you want it to be.

If you don't like how money is being spent in your school system, who did you vote for in the past school board election? Bet you can't tell me that.

And that said, they have fewer dollars than peer districts in peer states to spend AND they just a few years ago shut down a large number of properties and consolidated facilities to be more efficient, so that's probably not a solid theory you have.

[Oski]

That's a stupid reason to take money out of the system--some generalized angst that something might not be spent the way you want it to be.

If you don't like how money is being spent in your school system, who did you vote for in the past school board election? Bet you can't tell me that.

And that said, they have fewer dollars than peer districts in peer states to spend AND they just a few years ago shut down a large number of properties and consolidated facilities to be more efficient, so that's probably not a solid theory you have.

Dude, I asked a question, not made a statement. If anyone seems angry here, it’s you. Also, avoid making assumptions about someone else’s intelligence, especially when there’s plenty you don’t know.

[onthestrip]

These days, even strip malls and gas stations seem to get TIF.

Either a project is economically viable or it isn't. $3M is a lot of public money to put towards a private development--especially one the local neighborhoods don't want. This isn't a corporate relocation or really even a situation where there's much to say this will be a profitable project. There are everal music venues of a similar size in the immediate area which did not receive TIF to be functional like the Tower Theatre, the Criterion, Will Rogers, etc.

We have an underfunded urban school system with declining enrollment to think of. The City, which approves these TIFs does so mostly at the expense of other political entities and not the city budget. The City will financially come out a winner if this project is successful because they will collect far more in sales tax than they would have in ad valorem on 128 mills or whatever it is.

The Criterion did receive TIF money. I dont think the Tower Theater did but I may be wrong. You could argue a building like the Gold Dome is actually a decent TIF recipient due to its uniqueness and difficulty in repositioning it to a viable piece of real estate. Giving TIF for marked up, speculated properties (I realize this has happened to the Gold Dome) or for pickleball concepts or for an OKC corporation to move to another OKC property are whats suspect.

How can we be sure the school system isn’t wasting taxpayer money? While investing in the education of the next generation is undoubtedly important, we can't assume that every single dollar spent will always yield positive results, and taxpayer money must always flow into that pool first.

Mid is right that this is not a good argument for TIF. Its a whole different argument you are making.

[Midtowner]

Dude, I asked a question, not made a statement. If anyone seems angry here, it’s you. Also, avoid making assumptions about someone else’s intelligence, especially when there’s plenty you don’t know.

It's a pretty stupid question though. This year, OKCPS is projected to have an $838 million budget. It has over $2 billion in assets. Is there some waste there? I'm sure there is somewhere. But using that as a reason to say eff it, give it all to private developers to pad their bottom line is just insane.

[bison34]

It's a pretty stupid question though. This year, OKCPS is projected to have an $838 million budget. It has over $2 billion in assets. Is there some waste there? I'm sure there is somewhere. But using that as a reason to say eff it, give it all to private developers to pad their bottom line is just insane.

Liquid assets vs Illiquid assets.

That $2 billion includes their schools and busses and other stuff they own. Stuff that isn't necessarily liquid, in that they use them daily, so they can't just get rid of them.

But I agree with your last line.

[Midtowner]

The Criterion did receive TIF money. I dont think the Tower Theater did but I may be wrong. You could argue a building like the Gold Dome is actually a decent TIF recipient due to its uniqueness and difficulty in repositioning it to a viable piece of real estate. Giving TIF for marked up, speculated properties (I realize this has happened to the Gold Dome) or for pickleball concepts or for an OKC corporation to move to another OKC property are whats suspect.

10-15 years ago, I'd have certainly agreed that this is a great project for TIF assistance. I'm less sure now. There have been several other uses of this property which have been successful. The restaurant which operated there several years ago was successful and profitable. The landlord at the time was just insane and impossible to work with. I guess where I'm hung up is probably as to the economic viability of yet another concert venue in an area which already has a few of those.

I also think those other venues are going to have fewer accoustical concerns, which some say can be dealt with, but I'm not sure. I'm a musician and I've played halls like the egg church. I've played the egg church. That this operator was thinking about that as a venue tells me that they probably don't have much experience witht his sort of thing. That would have been a terrible venue.. the amphitheater outside would have been better than the indoor venue. Thinking as to the highest and best use of the property, I'm not sure there's anything inately historic about this dome. It's not all that attractive. It's going to cost a fortune to maintain, and I know it's going to cost a fortune to renovate because it has not been maintained at all.

I realize again it's another conversation for later, but gosh do I wish the city would come up with some guidelines for TIF investment so that we're not paying for intra-city corporate relocations, strip malls, pickleball courts, and (as Edmond does) overpriced tinyhouses with money which should be going to our students. If this property gets developed into a gas station or a strip mall, all it would have is upside and the taxpayer could be out $0.

Maybe here's where the market should decide? OKC should have a little faith in itself and its own value and not feel the need to just throw millions of dollars or public school money at any developer who looks our way.

[Midtowner]

Liquid assets vs Illinois assets.

Illinois??

But yeah, that's why I listed the budget and assets separately.

[Canoe]

In my opinion what made the restaurant in the gold dome interesting was the building it was in and the views you could see... An ideal situation would be a restaurant by day and a concert venue/bar by night. There is a nice Asian restaurant on NW 23rd with a similar model.

[bison34]

Illinois??

But yeah, that's why I listed the budget and assets separately.

Stupid swype to type. Lol.

[Bill Robertson]

Stupid swype to type. Lol.

I do that all the time. If texting with my wife she loves asking me what the hell I'm talking about. Even if she knows.

[April in the Plaza]

These days, even strip malls and gas stations seem to get TIF.

Either a project is economically viable or it isn't. $3M is a lot of public money to put towards a private development--especially one the local neighborhoods don't want. This isn't a corporate relocation or really even a situation where there's much to say this will be a profitable project. There are everal music venues of a similar size in the immediate area which did not receive TIF to be functional like the Tower Theatre, the Criterion, Will Rogers, etc.

We have an underfunded urban school system with declining enrollment to think of. The City, which approves these TIFs does so mostly at the expense of other political entities and not the city budget. The City will financially come out a winner if this project is successful because they will collect far more in sales tax than they would have in ad valorem on 128 mills or whatever it is.

And this operator doesn't know the first thing about music venues from what I can gather. The article in the Oklahoman where Holt is touting the obvious need for TIF here mentions that the operator was originally interested in the First Christian Church site (the egg church) but was surprised to see it torn down in 2022. Now I've played the egg church. The acoustics were insanely bad. In no universe should it have ever been considered for a music venue. I have questions about the acoustics in this venue, and I'm sure as mentioned above, they can work that out. I'm just not sure that's a good use of taxpayer money--or rather money being taken from gains which should be going to our school system.

And let's not forget, hasn't this site already been used to attempt to scam the city out of resourcse by that O&G company which financed the property where the CEO went to prison?

yeah, this particular iteration of the City Council seems particularly obsessed with giving away mountains of taxpayer cash to private entities. it's honestly kind of weird, given the enormous infrastructure challenges this city faces.

[BDP]

I'm not sure there's anything inately historic about this dome.

It's a geodesic dome built in 1958 on the original route of historic Route 66, declared eligible to be listed on the national register of historic places.

It's a unique and iconic structure along Oklahoma City's stretch of route 66.

Whether TIF is a responsible use of public incentives to restore it to a functional existence is clearly debatable on many levels, but dismissing it as historically insignificant to make that point just renders the rest of your argument as dubious.

[BDP]

I also think those other venues are going to have fewer accoustical concerns, which some say can be dealt with, but I'm not sure. I'm a musician and I've played halls like the egg church. I've played the egg church. That this operator was thinking about that as a venue tells me that they probably don't have much experience witht his sort of thing. That would have been a terrible venue..

From an acoustical stand point, how are the former "egg church" and the gold dome the same? Unrefracted dome structures are certainly challenging, especially for performers, because, as you know, they can directly reflect sounds from a source quicker or at greater amplitude back to an individual performer or listener in the group. The egg church seemed more like an open dome, or curved top, situation. We know that the gold dome is not that. We don't know if it's a better or worse acoustic situation as the egg church, but we do know that it's not the same. I think ( but do not know), that it's a lowered ceiling with refracting features under a dome structure.

That could actually be pretty amazing acoustically. Unique, but potentially amazing.

[Midtowner]

From an acoustical stand point, how are the former "egg church" and the gold dome the same? Unrefracted dome structures are certainly challenging, especially for performers, because, as you know, they can directly reflect sounds from a source quicker or at greater amplitude back to an individual performer or listener in the group. The egg church seemed more like an open dome, or curved top, situation. We know that the gold dome is not that. We don't know if it's a better or worse acoustic situation as the egg church, but we do know that it's not the same. I think ( but do not know), that it's a lowered ceiling with refracting features under a dome structure.

That could actually be pretty amazing acoustically. Unique, but potentially amazing.

It wasn't designed as a venue with accoustics in mind. It was designed as a bank lobby. There is a reason all of these old movie theaters are turning into concert venues--they were designed at least somewhat with accoustics in mind.

"Potentially amazing"? I really doubt it. The last time I was there, it had lots of hard surfaces, a high domed ceiling. I've performed both accoustically and with amplification in all kinds of spaces. This one reminds me mostly of a church with a hard floor. It'll probably be very bouncy with sound and if you try amplification, it's not going to sound good without significant work.

Potentially a money hole with a very questionable business plan? Yes. That. There are several other venues in the area which didn't need millions in public school money to get built. This developer wants that free money and then is going to compete against these other developers which are at least right now standing on their own two feet.

This building as it stands is nothing more than a vehicle for would-be developers to shake down our city for money which should be going to educate our children. That O&G guy who is in prison tried it. Now it appears the current developer purchased it as a vehicle to hit the city up for money.

Maybe it's worthy, but I really wish the city would develop some TIF guidelines. It seems the primary criterion for getting TIF awards right now is personal connections of developers or the hiring of whats her face from the Alliance. That's no way to run a city.

[Oski]

It's a pretty stupid question though. This year, OKCPS is projected to have an $838 million budget. It has over $2 billion in assets. Is there some waste there? I'm sure there is somewhere. But using that as a reason to say eff it, give it all to private developers to pad their bottom line is just insane.

Do you even know how to read, man? Nowhere did I say 'screw' the public school system or criticize the OKC school system specifically. My point is simple: questioning the assumption that just giving schools—whether in OKC, San Francisco, or NYC—more money automatically leads to better outcomes. There are those who strongly believe so, but I agree that’s a different argument. If a school has a bad principal or poor management, more money can easily be wasted. I meet so many people like you nowadays, those who think, 'If you don't agree with me, you're stupid,' which doesn't help foster constructive conversations. Chill a little, dude! When you have a solid record, respect comes naturally. There's no need to undermine others to appear smarter.