Streetcar

[Urbanized]

I understand I am being dramatic, I even said my post was a rant - I had just gotten done driving through there and I had to check my wheels to make sure nothing was bent afterwards. Even if the temporary patches will be redone, it will still look and feel pretty bootleg for such a high-class street. They should have used this opportunity to redo the entire strip, including removing the brick stamped patterns in the intersections. I mean we still have zero crosswalk indication at most of these areas. Unless there is some master plan I am unaware of, I would love to be proven wrong.

Isn’t there a plan to add signals to those intersections?

A couple of things: the asphalt patches are a function of the streetcar. They had to do with utility work required in advance of the track work. They have happened weeks/months ahead of time, and not just on Broadway but everywhere track is going. If those were what made you say the street was trash before the track work, well, they’re temporary and will be fully repaired by completion. Otherwise the street was previously in good shape.

Regarding shutting the street down, the businesses along Broadway have already suffered quite a bit. Total shutdown would have been devastating, no matter the length of time. It also would have caused nightmarish impacts on parallel streets, especially since some of them (including Robinson) were simultaneously under construction. That said, Broadway has moved roughly 1000x more quickly than did Sheridan or Reno in Bricktown. In many ways Broadway has had it very easy.

Regarding removing the stamped intersections, zero chance this happens. These intersections were a part of the 1999 streetscape and are at this point a distinct part of AA’s brand identity. They were also part of the Team 2 revisioning of AA during the bombing recovery, so culturally significant at this point. At some point they will need to be re-worked a bit, as ADA interpretation has changed since 1999 and the ramps and crosswalks ultimately need to be reconfigured.

Regarding a master plan, the city has been working closely with the district’s management (DOKC) on a long term plan to reconfigure ramps and include marked crosswalks. Unfortunately they can’t just plop down crosswalk markings willy-nilly currently because ADA has requirements on how wheelchair ramps empty into crosswalks, and in many cases the ramps don’t match up to where a crosswalk should be. Doing it wrong is just as bad as not doing it all; maybe even worse. So this has to be done methodically, which takes time, and expensively (and there is presently no budget).

The goal right now is to let the streetcar work finish, see how the streetcar and realigned lanes/parking affect traffic and pedestrian patterns and move forward from there in an informed way.

Regarding signalization there is currently a planned protected signal to be installed at 8th in conjunction with streetcar install.

[Anonymous.]

Thanks for more clarification, Urbanized. The asphalt before was still in poor condition, the parts that but-up against the stamped concrete are very warped. The asphalt patching for the utility work is horrible at best. I understand it is temporary, but visualizing a "permanent" patch over these patches, just gives the big picture a bad look. I hope these businesses don't suffer again in 1-5 years when the road needs further extensive repair. With Oklahoma summers, we all know what happens to asphalt around here.

Side note, everytime I have gone by here it looks like Cultivar is still killing it. I am happy they have developed a following.

[Rover]

Urbanized... thank you for your informative posts... not just the one above, but most of what you do. It is good that you are here to offer more objective insight into how and why decisions are made and what the factors affecting those decisions were. We can always debate whether the right conclusion was reached but at least we have a view to reality. Often, criticism is leveled without knowledge or concern for the factors influencing the actions. Context is very important.

[Urbanized]

Thanks for more clarification, Urbanized. The asphalt before was still in poor condition, the parts that but-up against the stamped concrete are very warped. The asphalt patching for the utility work is horrible at best. I understand it is temporary, but visualizing a "permanent" patch over these patches, just gives the big picture a bad look. I hope these businesses don't suffer again in 1-5 years when the road needs further extensive repair. With Oklahoma summers, we all know what happens to asphalt around here.

Side note, everytime I have gone by here it looks like Cultivar is still killing it. I am happy they have developed a following.

You're right about the asphalt. It had become warped a bit and that is certainly common on streets where asphalt abuts concrete. You begin to understand why they used asphalt when you look at the cost of the 1999 streetscape. If I recall from my involvement with Automobile Alley at the time the streetscape was $1.6 million. This utilized federal Murrah District Revitalization funding, administered by the City of OKC. The $1.6 million included complete reconstruction of the sidewalks (they were unbelievably decrepit), and each of the 7 intersections cost roughly $100K each. If you think of it in those terms and consider that concrete for the full length would have probably at least doubled the cost (and probably time spent), it is understandable why they would choose asphalt. At the same time, I agree that concrete streets are vastly superior. The issue is really just money. For instance the just-passed bond issue could have paid for such conversion, but there were so many other desperately needed projects ahead of it.

I will say that I THINK the entire street is going to be milled and resurfaced. Right now they are just humping it to be serviceable in time for the marathon.

Agree about Cultivar. I think they are weathering it really well all things considered.

Urbanized... thank you for your informative posts... not just the one above, but most of what you do. It is good that you are here to offer more objective insight into how and why decisions are made and what the factors affecting those decisions were. We can always debate whether the right conclusion was reached but at least we have a view to reality. Often, criticism is leveled without knowledge or concern for the factors influencing the actions. Context is very important.

Thanks Rover. I appreciate the kind words. I just try to chip in where I happen to have information that helps clarify a discussion. Sometimes it's easy to be upset at a situation if you don't have full context. I know you and others here often do the same.

[Laramie]

I understand I am being dramatic, I even said my post was a rant - I had just gotten done driving through there and I had to check my wheels to make sure nothing was bent afterwards. Even if the temporary patches will be redone, it will still look and feel pretty bootleg for such a high-class street. They should have used this opportunity to redo the entire strip, including removing the brick stamped patterns in the intersections. I mean we still have zero crosswalk indication at most of these areas. Unless there is some master plan I am unaware of, I would love to be proven wrong.

nm, Urbanized addressed that in 7201 & 7204

[Urban Pioneer]

Great post Urbanized. AA is happening faster than other track sections. Our goal is to have the area relatively free and clear for the marathon and then resume work immediately after. We have held off excavations across Broadway at the 11th street left-hand turn. This is another key section with a protected signal. The area between 6th and 4th is also staggered with track excavation to commence after the marathon.

Regarding renovating AA, there are some smart urbanists that really would like to see this done to make the area more pedestrian friendly. Yes, many of these organic initiatives are stymied by the undoubted negative impacts caused due to prolonged street reconstruction... however the biggest, broadest challenge is shifting ideas about how traffic should be handled with the Traffic Engineering Department. Those folks have moved somewhat at great pressure to do so. However, I can't see a complete overhaul of Broadway until some of the conservative traffic movement ideology dies off.

[shawnw]

I was not able to make any of the public meetings in March or the full public hearing on 6 April (disappointed about that), but something I asked about previously at an Embark meeting (a change to Route 50 to supplement vs duplicate streetcar service) was on the docket. I presume all these things passed, but not sure. The more interesting thing is, if you live in Deep Deuce, you'll soon have a connection to the streetcar line via the new Route 50.



Full details of rates and routes and changes going into effect in July:
http://embarkok.com/assets/files/mee..._CM_Packet.pdf

[Johnb911]

There are a whole lot of posts on this thread, and i'm still somewhat new to the site, so apologies if this has already been covered and hashed out somewhere else. Now that the stops are actually being built, it has struck me how close together some of them are. 2 stops essentially on each northern corner of myriad gardens. 3 stops at 4th and robinson/broadway. A stop each ~block on Sheridan and Reno in bricktown. Just seems like this isn't setting up with much expectation to walk i suppose? Someone educate me if i'm thinking wrong here

[BoulderSooner]

There are a whole lot of posts on this thread, and i'm still somewhat new to the site, so apologies if this has already been covered and hashed out somewhere else. Now that the stops are actually being built, it has struck me how close together some of them are. 2 stops essentially on each northern corner of myriad gardens. 3 stops at 4th and robinson/broadway. A stop each ~block on Sheridan and Reno in bricktown. Just seems like this isn't setting up with much expectation to walk i suppose? Someone educate me if i'm thinking wrong here

I think I can help with a few of these questions.

1. While there are 2 stops on the north side of the myriad gardens keep in mind that they are 2 blocks apart. Also. While the bricktown loop. (Or blue line or “B” line”) has those 2 stops back to back on the main line they are 14 stops apart. So any one coming from midtown would be able to get off at the park without riding in bricktown

2. The idea of the stops at 4th and Robinson next to each other is to be able to shorten the trip depending on where you want to go. Ie if you want to go from the library to the ball park you could ride to that intersection get out and walk across the street and get on the south bound car to bricktown and cut out having to ride all the way around midtown. The opposite is also true.


As for bricktown it is the highest activity area in maybe the entire state. And While the stops are just less than 2 blocks apart. The choice really was to over serve Bricktown slightly or underserve it.


Keep in mind the Far East bricktown stop is an out of traffic stop (so the driver can take a break ect). And the Sheridan/Reno stops next to the tracks are there to serve the sante fe station. And just having those 3 would have left bricktown underserved.


Hope that helps

[Johnb911]

Thanks Boulder, appreciate it! I may still think there are too many stops in certain areas, but i understand the reasoning behind the decisions.

[Urbanized]

I hadn’t given it that much thought until I really started thinking about the way the route works, but definitely regular users will want to use different stops near them depending on which direction they’re headed. For instance, I have a stop directly in front of my office door on Sheridan, which will be perfect for arrival. But if I’m outbound from my office I’m likely to walk two blocks south to Reno and a Mickey Mantle, because I won’t want to catch a train that is only a couple of blocks from a ten minute stopover/cig break on the east side of the ballpark.

The fact that there are multiple routes, the fact that they cross in the CBD, and the fact that a one or two block walk can put you on a train that is directionally opposed to the stop nearest you, trimming off a huge part of the route, is very important for regular users (as opposed to lookie-loos). If I’m working in Bricktown and want to grab lunch in Automobile Alley, for instance, no way I want to loop through Midtown on either leg of that trip.

[Timshel]

^

I've been discussing this with my friends recently, some of whom have complained that we didn't do a simple double tracked linear street car (one N/S from the CBD to Midtown and one E/W from the CBD to Bricktown), a la Kansas City. Your post captures my view/response to these complaints, as once people become familiar with the stops, it generally shouldn't take much time to walk to a stop that will efficiently send you the direction you want to go.

[catch22]

Are operators really going to stop the train on the east end with riders onboard for their break? Please tell me no, and that it is only a driver switching point?

[benjico]

I was thinking about this after leaving the Thunder game last night...I wonder how the streetcar will be utilized for people leaving games/arena concerts with departures from the station 12-15 minutes apart and only 100 or so passengers being able to fit inside. I can see the streetcar being a very popular option for leaving the game (parking for away for free to save money, going to get a drink after, people living downtown). I feel like the demand for using it will be greater than the supply of streetcar space and timing. Could they increase the frequency on game nights or would that not be possible due to how many streetcars they have available?

[shawnw]

This was discussed at some of the public meetings. The boulevard stop near the main arena entrance is the only place we're double tracked and they will be pre-staging trains there for when a game lets out.

[Anonymous.]

I was thinking about this after leaving the Thunder game last night...I wonder how the streetcar will be utilized for people leaving games/arena concerts with departures from the station 12-15 minutes apart and only 100 or so passengers being able to fit inside. I can see the streetcar being a very popular option for leaving the game (parking for away for free to save money, going to get a drink after, people living downtown). I feel like the demand for using it will be greater than the supply of streetcar space and timing. Could they increase the frequency on game nights or would that not be possible due to how many streetcars they have available?

I am pretty sure Thunder games will get a prioritized streetcar treatment. However, on nights that are nicer weather-wise or say a Friday or Saturday - the streetcars will be in high demand elsewhere in addition to the arena. I am sure it will be a reactive call on how to stagger the cars.

[Urbanized]

Are operators really going to stop the train on the east end with riders onboard for their break? Please tell me no, and that it is only a driver switching point?

I believe that is also a location where they will build charge in the batteries to replenish after being off-wire, so pretty much every train will stop there for a bit no matter what. Same for the stop on Dewey by Saint Anthony.

[soonerguru]

Imagine 15-20 minute service from Will Rogers Airport to the downtown loop with connections to outer neighborhoods, even Austin doesn't have that!

Austin's light rail system is literally nothing we would want to emulate ever.

[soonerguru]

Thanks for the replies catch22. Yea I didn't meant to intend that redoing the street should come from the streetcar budget. I am just saying this is like one of those missed opportunities and we will be closing this street down again in the next 5 years to redo it properly. This was more of a frustration rant. Much like the P180/Streetcar construction interaction has been a joke, this is likely another area of hindsight.

We are OKC. This is how we roll.

[catch22]

I believe that is also a location where they will build charge in the batteries to replenish after being off-wire, so pretty much every train will stop there for a bit no matter what. Same for the stop on Dewey by Saint Anthony.

I think that is a huge flaw.

[d-usa]

It could also be a way to buffer for traffic impacting the schedule.

If they schedule a train for every 10 minutes, but light traffic results in improved travel time, they could hold in those areas to get back to their normal interval.

[catch22]

It could also be a way to buffer for traffic impacting the schedule.

If they schedule a train for every 10 minutes, but light traffic results in improved travel time, they could hold in those areas to get back to their normal interval.

Perhaps. But people already skeptical of transit will not like standing for 2-5 mins for the driver to stretch his legs and recharge the vehicle. Being ahead of schedule usually is absorbed by standing at a functioning stop. At least people can board or choose to get off.

Imagine if you took a bus everyday and it had to stop at 7/11 for fuel.

[baralheia]

Perhaps. But people already skeptical of transit will not like standing for 2-5 mins for the driver to stretch his legs and recharge the vehicle. Being ahead of schedule usually is absorbed by standing at a functioning stop. At least people can board or choose to get off.

Imagine if you took a bus everyday and it had to stop at 7/11 for fuel.

I'm pretty positive that there is a functioning stop on Joe Carter Ave that the streetcars will stop at for their dwell period. Looking at Google Earth, I see a cross-hatched area right in front of the platform, directly west across the street from IHOP.

[Urbanized]

I'm pretty positive that there is a functioning stop on Joe Carter Ave that the streetcars will stop at for their dwell period. Looking at Google Earth, I see a cross-hatched area right in front of the platform, directly west across the street from IHOP.

That's correct. It's the one we are referencing. Similar stop on Dewey near St Anthony.

[catch22]

I'm pretty positive that there is a functioning stop on Joe Carter Ave that the streetcars will stop at for their dwell period. Looking at Google Earth, I see a cross-hatched area right in front of the platform, directly west across the street from IHOP.

You may be right. Last time I drove through there I didn’t see a platform, only the hatch lines. If that is true I think that is better but I still don’t like the idea of having to sit to recharge.