Convention Center

[kevinpate]

that

[HangryHippo]

the other.


I'm sorry, but I had to do it.

[HangryHippo]

Urbanized, do you believe that the CC should be moved to a different location, or do you think it's where it ought to be?

[Urbanized]

Urbanized, do you believe that the CC should be moved to a different location, or do you think it's where it ought to be?

I think the currently-identified location is infinitely better than the south of I-40 location, due to the fact that I want to see the convention center actually...you know...succeed. It needs to be in a place where meeting planners can count on attendees having a 10 minute or shorter walk from the front door of the facility to hotel inventory and dining/entertainment options. Once you go over 10 minutes of walk time, planners start thinking of you as a drive-to location, and we cede the main advantage our current facility has...location. One of the reasons the new Boston convention center struggled so much was because they located it away from the walkable neighborhoods that make Beantown such an attractive meeting destination. This has happened in other cities too.

The (currently) ridiculously short walk to Bricktown and hotels is the one reason our current underwhelming conference facility outperforms expectations. Many organizers will overlook the facility to some extent due to the fact that it is so far under the magical 10 minute walk ceiling. I regularly talk to meeting attendees who are shocked by how compact and walkable we are as a convention destination. I know we often don't think of our city as walkable, but believe me, THEY do.

The South-of-Chesapeake location hovered in the 13-15 minute walking range to Bricktown thanks to opening on the park side, having an identified conference hotel pad between it and the arena, and having to cross the I-40 ROW. The doors would have been about 3/4 of a mile to the heart of Bricktown on foot. Also, you had some stifling elements in having to cross more and larger arterials on foot to get to and from. Additonally, it took the Skirvin and some other hotel stock somewhat off the table as walking destinations. Going over the 10 minute number doesn't indicate attendees CAN'T walk between sites; it just means they likely WON'T.

That said, to answer your question of whether or not it is "where it ought to be," I would have felt even better about the location if it had been on the lumberyard.

Since it is not, however, I'm not crying over spilled milk. If it remains in this location, I'm good with it, although agree with many on here that it has the potential to awkwardly separate elements of downtown or kill street life. I say the potential rather than will, because I think all of that could be avoided with some thoughtful planning and execution. I think the space between the hotel and conference center (or instead, the hotel and Chesapeake) could actually be designed in such a way that it creates and HIGHLIGHTS a connection between the two parks. Regarding the street wall/life, see my suggestions above.

[Just the facts]

Retail is great, we still only have $250 million and a fair chunk of that will be spent on land and soil removal.

[Spartan]

OK, the distortion of fact to suit a particular argument is a little out of control here. Spartan, I love you man, but 100 hours a year? I'm sure there are utilization numbers available somewhere, but I would guess the Cox Center's CURRENT usage is in the HUNDREDS of hours. PER MONTH. That is, if you count multiple simultaneous events as separate "event hours," much as the State Fairgrounds claims 1,000+s event days per year. There are CONSTANTLY events at Cox Center, spread throughout event rooms and exhibition halls.

While I think it's possible that the NEW economic impact of a new convention center might have been overstated (as happens to just about any public event/project), it doesn't mean that a new facility is not sorely needed. Very few people here or elsewhere seem to understand how many local/statewide/regional events are held there every week. There also are routinely events that are more national in scope related to the energy industry, government employees, sports governing bodies and the like. Those are frankly pretty immune to the ups and downs of the national convention industry, but ARE impacted by substandard facilities and oversold facilities.

Folks, we're not competing with Chicago, or D.C., or Boston, or Vegas, or San Antonio, and it's highly unlikely we ever will be. Therefore we shouldn't be comparing ourselves to them in any way. In fact, when the national destinations are suffering because of reduced budgets, airfare, etc., I think we should BENEFIT by providing a good regional location easily accessible by highway. We excel in this regard.

The problem is that our facilities are currently just slightly better than an embarrassment. Instead of competing on an even playing field with tier II or even peer tier III cities, right now we are competing WITHIN THE METRO AND STATE with superior conference facilities like Reed Center in Midwest City and the Embassy Suites in Norman. Do we REALLY want Oklahoma City to compete for conference and meeting business with Midwest City?

Last thought: much of the negativity regarding the "blank wall" being turned on the Myriad Gardens could be countered by fronting that sidewalk with small retail space that could house things like coffee shops, services, small restaurants, shops that cater to conference attendees AND downtowners, etc. These spaces would relate to Reno much the same way the retail spaces in Aloft face 2nd Street, and could also open to an interior hallway in the convention center during events. While I know many here are hoping against hope that the CC is relocated (or even killed, which would be incredibly irresponsible), I'd hope that those whose biggest problem with it is the "dead" park frontage would as a fallback start clamoring for the incorporation of good mixed use on the Reno frontage.

First of all, thanks for the love. It's not just mutual, but you're actually one of the few dudes around that walk the talk.

I did not literally mean X number of hours that it's used, but my point is that for the majority of its time (more than we would think) these facilities are not being used, and never are they being used after 5. A corporate headquarters is a lot more vibrant than a convention center after 5, and it looks like we're literally going to surround the Myriad Gardens with a corporate headquarters, a new convention center, an old convention center, and another corporate headquarters. What is wrong with us?

As for the "blank wall" problem, I really am going to just be pretty closed-minded toward the possibility of incorporating mixed-use into the CC facade. I've heard this idea frequently for the last 5 years and I'm pretty sure this idea is kind of a joke. The brutalist COTPA parking garages have this too. Larry Nichols isn't even a big fan of ground-floor retail on these structures because there just aren't the prospective tenants lining up for space on the ground floor of superblock structures.

We need to get real about the impact a convention center has, and particularly, how we're going to feel about this convention center facility in as short as 20-30 years from now. This kind of reminds of Alaska Senator Lisa Murkowski answering a question about the environmental impact of oil and gas pipelines by saying that it's great because the caribou like to snuggle up to the pipelines to stay warm in the winter.

[BoulderSooner]

If the keep the current site the hotel will most likely be on the east edge and the entrance pushed west.

Second when the new CC opens there will be a street car and they will be able to to bricktown without walking

[GaryOKC6]

OK, the distortion of fact to suit a particular argument is a little out of control here. Spartan, I love you man, but 100 hours a year? I'm sure there are utilization numbers available somewhere, but I would guess the Cox Center's CURRENT usage is in the HUNDREDS of hours. PER MONTH. That is, if you count multiple simultaneous events as separate "event hours," much as the State Fairgrounds claims 1,000+s event days per year. There are CONSTANTLY events at Cox Center, spread throughout event rooms and exhibition halls.

While I think it's possible that the NEW economic impact of a new convention center might have been overstated (as happens to just about any public event/project), it doesn't mean that a new facility is not sorely needed. Very few people here or elsewhere seem to understand how many local/statewide/regional events are held there every week. There also are routinely events that are more national in scope related to the energy industry, government employees, sports governing bodies and the like. Those are frankly pretty immune to the ups and downs of the national convention industry, but ARE impacted by substandard facilities and oversold facilities.

Folks, we're not competing with Chicago, or D.C., or Boston, or Vegas, or San Antonio, and it's highly unlikely we ever will be. Therefore we shouldn't be comparing ourselves to them in any way. In fact, when the national destinations are suffering because of reduced budgets, airfare, etc., I think we should BENEFIT by providing a good regional location easily accessible by highway. We excel in this regard.

The problem is that our facilities are currently just slightly better than an embarrassment. Instead of competing on an even playing field with tier II or even peer tier III cities, right now we are competing WITHIN THE METRO AND STATE with superior conference facilities like Reed Center in Midwest City and the Embassy Suites in Norman. Do we REALLY want Oklahoma City to compete for conference and meeting business with Midwest City?

Last thought: much of the negativity regarding the "blank wall" being turned on the Myriad Gardens could be countered by fronting that sidewalk with small retail space that could house things like coffee shops, services, small restaurants, shops that cater to conference attendees AND downtowners, etc. These spaces would relate to Reno much the same way the retail spaces in Aloft face 2nd Street, and could also open to an interior hallway in the convention center during events. While I know many here are hoping against hope that the CC is relocated (or even killed, which would be incredibly irresponsible), I'd hope that those whose biggest problem with it is the "dead" park frontage would as a fallback start clamoring for the incorporation of good mixed use on the Reno frontage.

I totally agree. This is right on target.

[Spartan]

If the keep the current site the hotel will most likely be on the east edge and the entrance pushed west.

Second when the new CC opens there will be a street car and they will be able to to bricktown without walking

So.. enter from Hudson or Walker? And again, where do the loading docks go?

[Rover]

So.. enter from Hudson or Walker? And again, where do the loading docks go?

Being used only 4 days a year, we may not need any loading docks. We can just park at the curb and carry stuff in.

Just kidding...just kidding.

[kevinpate]

or use the future south park section for staging and just air lift everything in.

[BG918]

I think if you took an objective poll of MAPS3 voters you would find the vast majority who voted for MAPS3 held their collective noses to do so because of the CC and Fairgrounds projects for no other reason than to get the projects that are most desired - streetcar, trails, sidewalks, park, and river.

I am not opposed to a new CC - I agree the Cox is not very good - but I do think the site selected is a poor choice and I think we are planning to build a much larger facility than is needed. I think Mayor Cornett had the site right and would fit in best with current and future development. There was a very well done concept by BG918 that would have been appropriate for a city like OKC and the convention business we can realistically anticipate. I would much rather invest in a very nicely appointed CC of reasonable size rather than something that will eventually be loathed by the vast majority of MAPS voters.

Thanks CaptDave, I don't have that Photobucket account anymore and so the pics I posted awhile back in the thread are gone. Luckily Steve still has some of them on his blog. I agree that the Ford site is a poor choice and that south of the Blvd. is better. Our proposal, which was done back in 2007-08 when things were different, had OKC's convention center on par or larger size-wise with regional cities like Austin, Nashville, Kansas City, etc. and more than twice as big as the Cox. If we were designing it now we probably would've reduced the overall size, especially in the exhibit hall and number of banquet/meeting rooms.

The rendering shows the "front door" on the Blvd. with the main circulation spine along the axis of Broadway, across from the Chesapeake Arena and nearly halfway between Robinson and Shields. The highrise convention hotel would then be to the west right at the SE corner of Robinson and the Blvd. with the park across the street. The building is setback from Robinson so private development such as apartments or condos could be developed facing the park and all the loading docks face Shields near where it becomes elevated. The footprint extends all the way to SW 6, with the exhibit hall bridging SW 5 and a parking garage underneath.


Ballrooms, meeting rooms, etc. are all closer to the front (north) side with a large prefunction area next to a glass curtain wall with skyline views over Chesapeake Arena. A very conceptual view..notice no Devon Tower lol..


The Blvd. frontage could be mixed-use with retail/restaurants as well as the main entrances into the CC, with large open areas of glass so pedestrians can see in (like Denver's CC).

[UnFrSaKn]

Steve linked this on Facebook...

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/21/re...ewanted=1&_r=0

[Spartan]

Omg. Nashville had to put up $128 MILLION for an Omni. They're already on the hook for the $650 million CC.

We really should cash out. Completely exit the convention business. This is insane.

We should examine how the conference facilities in MWC and Norman were built using private development or institutional development and TIF funding, and offer financing for the WHOLE thing that doesn't go over $250 million. We should make sure we clearly have the best facility in the state, and get out of this insane arms race with Nashville, FW, Louisville, Austin, Cleveland, and countless other mid size cities with better facilities than we can afford to match.

That Nashville CC is breathtaking.

[soonerguru]

Omg. Nashville had to put up $128 MILLION for an Omni. They're already on the hook for the $650 million CC.

We really should cash out. Completely exit the convention business. This is insane.

We should examine how the conference facilities in MWC and Norman were built using private development or institutional development and TIF funding, and offer financing for the WHOLE thing that doesn't go over $250 million. We should make sure we clearly have the best facility in the state, and get out of this insane arms race with Nashville, FW, Louisville, Austin, Cleveland, and countless other mid size cities with better facilities than we can afford to match.

That Nashville CC is breathtaking.

Scary article. If Nashville spent 650 million what are we going to get for 250?

[Rover]

Scary article. If Nashville spent 650 million what are we going to get for 250?

We get the "let's think small" version.

[bchris02]

Has there been any renderings of the proposed convention center yet?

Nashville's looks amazing but I also highly doubt OKC will ever see as many large conventions as Nashville does, at least in the near future. Nashville is about 10-15 years ahead of OKC in development and growth. This convention center needs to be designed with the future in mind though.

[Urbanized]

Not sure whether or not this has been linked here, but here is a convention industry article from late 2010 that is particularly relevant to this discussion, including a mention of OKC.

[Spartan]

Is the "let's think small" version worth decimating our downtown over? The Nashville project is truly stunning. Ours on the other hand needs some serious, serious reevaluation. Esp as every other MAPS3 project is apparently up for review and chopping block eligible...

The scary Nashville takeaway isn't their CC cost, which we already knew. The revelation is their CC hotel subsidy..staggering.

[bsoreal]

I'm not sure if this idea has been brought up for the convention center and hotel. I was thinking about a hotel high rise that i stayed at in Chicago. The building had to be at least 40 stories but it wasnt all specific to one ownsership. I stayed in the Holliday inn on the 33rd floor. Below was a super eight for 6 floors and below that was a hampton inn or something like that. Above me was a more expensive hotel and condos perched at the top. Lets think out the box and get more than just city ownership or one hotel group involved.

Why not a 40 story complex that for the first five stories where a convention center and retail/mall. and shared hotels above that. Obviously they will set a higher standard that the norm as the Super 8 below my hotel was very chic and extremely nice. I would have stayed there if i knew better. Does that not sound like it would achieve everything we want? I dont know the rules and laws but ,hell, I'd like to see Riverwind or Windstar purchase the top floors and add a casino hotel at the top.

[Larry OKC]

The laws would have to be changed before a casino can be built there. Not impossible but not easy either. Some tribes have wanted to get a casino built in the area but Cornett and Council were extremely frigid to the idea.

[Plutonic Panda]

The laws would have to be changed before a casino can be built there. Not impossible but not easy either. Some tribes have wanted to get a casino built in the area but Cornett and Council were extremely frigid to the idea.

Do you have any idea why?

[Plutonic Panda]

New OKC Convention Center Could Cost Taxpayers More Money - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports |

[Just the facts]

New OKC Convention Center Could Cost Taxpayers More Money - News9.com - Oklahoma City, OK - News, Weather, Video and Sports |

Reading the comments on that article makes me realize how disconnected a lot of people are.

[Teo9969]

The comments about the design gave me a chuckle.