OKC Regional Transit System

[Plutonic Panda]

I don't mean to sound pessimistic, but I'll believe it when I see it. The amount of money required to get this thing going would require a bone in each city even if everyone did agree. Right now, Norman would have to pay for all the work done to get a line put through Moore. I think the city of Moore might have something to say about that. Depending on where the Edmond line goes, you may have some of the smaller burbs up there to worry about.

And them still talking about it still needing to convert to bus to go to Tinker. Come on, i mean that kills it too. Why bother with the train if they are going to have an express bus option to Tinker?
Keep in mind that people that can afford a car, aren't going to be the ones making use of this. So those downtown workers aren't really the ones you're marketing to. Which is the biggest reason these cities are dropping out. They don't see ridership coming to fruition. I've said all along that i wish we could do this and that it only works if everyone does it at the same time. But that we just dont have the density to make it work.

A train to Tinker seems like overkill but then again I would like to see projected ridership numbers. Norman alone won’t pay for it it’ll be a collection of various other cities in the RTA that pool in money. Edmond and Norman along with OKC are by far and large the biggest monetary contributors. Yukon is also mulling a membership.

[Zuplar]

I was fairly skeptical of this whole project, and continue to be, at least in it's current iteration. I too don't see how rail works at this rate without all the original members.

A better option may be to go back to the table and figure out how all 3 of these cities could get their bus systems integrated and expanded. Figure out where the ridership needs are really coming from and make sure those areas are covered.

Like others have said most of those that can afford a car will drive.

[Jersey Boss]

With these recent developments the virtual townhall tonight should provide some clarity.

[Jersey Boss]

OKC, Edmond, and Norman are the biggest pieces of the puzzle. The RTA needs those cities. Funding from MWC, Moore, and Del City aren’t so important. Tinker is also a big goal and the agency is still planning on funding that. I highly doubt this plan is scrapped. If anything it may allow it to move faster. These cities, at least Moore and MWC will eventually buy back in.

So it is nothing other than faith that those drop outs will rejoin? I wouldn't vote to approve it in Norman on that basis.

[Plutonic Panda]

So it is nothing other than faith that those drop outs will rejoin? I wouldn't vote to approve it in Norman on that basis.

Did you not read the article? From what it says the RTA is still moving forward and is planning around MWCs drop out in favor of rapid bus service and the train from OKC to Norman is still a go it just won’t stop in Moore. Now mind you this is information coming from the Oklahoma so consider the source. Actually you hit the nail on head with more information coming out tonight from the town hall. I’ll be interested to watch that.

[Jersey Boss]

^ Yes I read the article written by Lackmeyer.
Unless I read it here first I don't give him much stock.

[Plutonic Panda]

The meeting is live and has been since 6:30: https://engagekh.com/rtamoves/events

[AnguisHerba]

Would OKC be better served to just attempt a pass at a 0.5 cent transit sales tax instead of hoping a 1 cent RTA tax might come to fruition?

[Plutonic Panda]

Nah go big or go home. Let the people decide. LA County has a 1 cent sales for transit. It can be done here.

[Teo9969]

It really is Edmond, OKC, Norman because the commuter rail is just going through BNSF right of way anyway, so the stops themselves are a relatively large percentage of the overall capital costs anyway. If I'm OKC, Edmond, and Norman - I'm telling Moore specifically but everyone else as well - there will be no funding from the RTA for stops to get in after the fact. If Moore wants to get in later, they build the station on their dime (or at least sizable percentage) and then on top of that start contributing to the 1-cent sales tax. If they can't do both, then they're not in.

If they were to join now, the reality is their station would basically be subsidized by the big 3.

Honestly, this should make the RTA more palatable for Normanites because this cuts off a stop between downtown and Norman, that probably improves times by 5 minutes when you factor in slowing down, being stopped, and speeding back up.

[HOT ROD]

OK guys and gals. Let's talk some transit sense.

Most if not all of you on here are going on and on about this city and that dropping out, like it's a ballbuster. When in fact, the cities only need to be involved primarily for the stations/park n ride(s) that stop in their city. RTD is a regional government that can tax without approval of the cities. Sure, it'd be great if they also had those councils support but if they decide not to it's not a deal breaker - the RTD would just fund the rail through those cities. The biggest deal breaker would be Oklahoma City, followed by Norman, Edmond, and Tinker since those are Termini of the commuter rail lines, you gotta have somewhere for the trains to go right?. Rail and cities inbetween are not a major concern since the RTD can fund the rails with it's regional power (still tax in those cities) and the cities can opt in and build their stations/park n ride later, or not.

Here in the seattle, tacoma area. We have an RTD known as Sound Transit. They get funding regardless of what the cities of Seattle or Tacoma or wherever else say and Sound Transit pays for the track through cities that don't get service. Seattle and Tacoma operate their rail stations but the ops, rail cars, and rails - it's the regional transit authority. The same would be adopted for OKC.

Would be great to have cities onboard, but not a requirement or dealbreaker other than OKC and the Termini.

[HOT ROD]

One more thought. OKC should pursue RTA funding from a variety of sources, not JUST sales tax. In fact, I'd argue OKC should use sales tax at all if possible, other than perhaps the initial MAPS like capital investment in the rail cars, stations, and maintenance & operations center. Again, the RTD would be funding this stuff not OKC city.

Funding options include: Property Tax (Oklahoma and Cleveland counties, Canadian county later) + Gas Tax + Vehicle Title (transit portion) + Transit tax added to vehicle registration + Parking tax (transit portion) + State RTD funding + Federal Government funding + sales tax + bonds. These are all methods Sound Transit uses, should work in OKC too. And since OKC's taxes are already quite low, spreading over these media shouldn't adversely impact any one contributor.

[BoulderSooner]

OK guys and gals. Let's talk some transit sense.

Most if not all of you on here are going on and on about this city and that dropping out, like it's a ballbuster. When in fact, the cities only need to be involved primarily for the stations/park n ride(s) that stop in their city. RTD is a regional government that can tax without approval of the cities. Sure, it'd be great if they also had those councils support but if they decide not to it's not a deal breaker - the RTD would just fund the rail through those cities. The biggest deal breaker would be Oklahoma City, followed by Norman, Edmond, and Tinker since those are Termini of the commuter rail lines, you gotta have somewhere for the trains to go right?. Rail and cities inbetween are not a major concern since the RTD can fund the rails with it's regional power (still tax in those cities) and the cities can opt in and build their stations/park n ride later, or not.

Here in the seattle, tacoma area. We have an RTD known as Sound Transit. They get funding regardless of what the cities of Seattle or Tacoma or wherever else say and Sound Transit pays for the track through cities that don't get service. Seattle and Tacoma operate their rail stations but the ops, rail cars, and rails - it's the regional transit authority. The same would be adopted for OKC.

Would be great to have cities onboard, but not a requirement or dealbreaker other than OKC and the Termini.

i don't believe that this is how the RTD governance is set up in Oklahoma .. any funding takes public votes ... and iirc the cities have to set the votes for their citizens ..

[BoulderSooner]

Funding options include: Property Tax (Oklahoma and Cleveland counties, Canadian county later) + Gas Tax + Vehicle Title (transit portion) + Transit tax added to vehicle registration + Parking tax (transit portion) + State RTD funding + Federal Government funding + sales tax + bonds. These are all methods Sound Transit uses, should work in OKC too. And since OKC's taxes are already quite low, spreading over these media shouldn't adversely impact any one contributor.

the only local funding option currently allowed in Oklahoma would be a new sales tax ..

[GoGators]

It really is Edmond, OKC, Norman because the commuter rail is just going through BNSF right of way anyway, so the stops themselves are a relatively large percentage of the overall capital costs anyway. If I'm OKC, Edmond, and Norman - I'm telling Moore specifically but everyone else as well - there will be no funding from the RTA for stops to get in after the fact. If Moore wants to get in later, they build the station on their dime (or at least sizable percentage) and then on top of that start contributing to the 1-cent sales tax. If they can't do both, then they're not in.

If they were to join now, the reality is their station would basically be subsidized by the big 3.

Honestly, this should make the RTA more palatable for Normanites because this cuts off a stop between downtown and Norman, that probably improves times by 5 minutes when you factor in slowing down, being stopped, and speeding back up.

Exactly this. This makes the Norman to OKC route faster and removes a stop that a person in Norman would never utilize. No one would get on the train in Norman to travel to a park and ride in Moore. Once you got there you would be stranded without a car which defeats the entire purpose of using transit.

[Jersey Boss]

Exactly this. This makes the Norman to OKC route faster and removes a stop that a person in Norman would never utilize. No one would get on the train in Norman to travel to a park and ride in Moore. Once you got there you would be stranded without a car which defeats the entire purpose of using transit.

So there would be no demand for students or employees living in Moore that go to Norman on a daily basis? How do you know that?

[GoGators]

Double post

[GoGators]

So there would be no demand for students or employees living in Moore that go to Norman on a daily basis? How do you know that?

I'm not talking about people living in Moore. I'm talking about it being better for people living in Norman. It makes the trip faster and removes a useless (for Normanites) stop. Win win.

[Jersey Boss]

Can County Governments raise a county wide sales tax? Is the sales tax the only revenue source for county level projects?

[HOT ROD]

Can county governments raise a sales tax. I believe so.

Is sales tax the only revenue source for counties. No. They can also property tax.

We need someone to weigh in on the powers that regional government has. Here in WA, our RTD has broad powers beyond those of cities/counties. Sound Transit can and has bonds, and a variety of property tax, gas tax, and other fees usually vehicle related. If OKC didn't get this authority in its RTA then it's somehting that needs to be expedited. There's no way a RTA should have to depend on a city, with the small exception being a rail station but even then the RTA can and should move independent of a city's municipal council.

Otherwise, why have a regional government entity?

[Plutonic Panda]

Los Angeles Metro though running bus lines out of the county is a multi city RTA and is pretty much confined to LA county. They run a sales tax that expands through the entire county, IIRC. But LA county is much larger to Oklahoma county. This type of setup makes more sense than to go strictly by county. It seems to me that there would be an agreement on the sales tax and all cities in the RTA would vote on it in one election. I don’t know what would happen if one city didn’t get enough votes.

[Jersey Boss]

The Norman CC kicked in another 31k to cover the drop outs.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nor...c56d2.amp.html

[bombermwc]

So there would be no demand for students or employees living in Moore that go to Norman on a daily basis? How do you know that?

No beacuse what does a commuter rail do? It gets you between two points that are not intended (in the burbs) to get you anywhere in that burb other than one single station. So you again either have to walk or change to a bus to get there. In reality, do you think that there will be enough traffic of people that need to do that to sustain it?

People here keep talking about building, but what about sustaining? This crap's expensive to keep going. Running one car back and forth is less efficient than a dang bus, which ridership shows, people do not use here in any large capacity. Again, we're just not dense enough to be walkable enough, for people to use this thing.

So Moore comes in later and votes to build a station and join the club. Great. MWC and DC already have the right of way, just have to do line repairs and build a station too. They probably would get a better participation on that line. You've got people that would honestly be park and riders to downtown to work and if you can convince Tinker to let it go ON the base, then you've got an insane win there. Onbase transit actually works well.

Yukon/Mustang, meh, i think that's a stretch to be honest. Too distributed.

That's great that the Norman CC donated some money. It might help to put grass down in the parking lot of a few stations. but 30k will absolutely not sustain this. Lets not kid ourselves in hopes that it works.

[catch22]

Adding additional stops may not be so cut and dry. This is BNSF's property after all and even if they are supposedly going to operate the commuter trains and fit the schedules into their network, they may not desire any additional stops in the future. They are in the freight business after all and are quite reluctant to anything that stands in their way. So if I were Moore, I would think long and hard about not getting in on the ground floor. It may be very difficult to buy their way in one day in the future.

I don't understand the justification for the Moore hate from a certain few posters in this thread. It is no different than 99% of the metro when it comes to density or lack of urban infrastructure. The Park and Ride concept is successful all over the country, and if the requirements for a stop are an urban location we may as well not have a train at all, anywhere in the metro. Transit leads urban infrastructure, not the way around. Any stops along the way will likely densify over time. Celebrating the loss of a member of the RTA because they aren't "cool" enough is a strange take. This only adds costs to the remaining members and leads to complications in the future should they change their position and wish to join.

[Plutonic Panda]

Who is hating Moore in this thread?