Streetcar

[Spartan]

Well I hope you're right, but I think that there's a strong consensus that the fix is in on the "boulevard."

[LakeEffect]

Well I hope you're right, but I think that there's a strong consensus that the fix is in on the "boulevard."

It'll be a boulevard, regardless. No need for quotes or pithy commentary from afar.

[Urban Pioneer]

I haven't really had time to follow up on here from our big meeting on Wed. Basically, a ton of extremely detailed information was covered.

As far as the Boulevard is concerned, the official City position on it is to take possession of it from ODOT and rip out what we don't like an modify it after it is built. Bids will be let for it during the first quarter of 2016. We will be tearing it up to install streetcar tracks... that is now official.

[Urban Pioneer]

It seems that ODOT is incapable of building an 'actual' boulevard. The City has to deal with ODOT to get other major transportation projects funded... and of course our share of road salt. So it is just easier to take the keys and modify it afterward. If you care about how your federal tax dollars are spent, you have good reason to be angry. The reality is though, there is absolutely no mechanism to force ODOT to do build a proper urban street instead of a highway bypass. Even the Federal Highway Administration spokesman didn't understand the actual law and basically stated to the Gazette ODOT can do whatever it wants regardless of the public's requests or environmental impact.

Anyways, we will be tearing up a bunch of relatively new concrete.

[hfry]

UP, when you say tear it up to install streetcar tracks, is that for a track to go to the CC or a slight adjustment of the original line?

[Spartan]

It'll be a boulevard, regardless. No need for quotes or pithy commentary from afar.

I just don't know what to say to this. Congrats on compressing so much consternation into one concise one-liner.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, or if you're clinging to a position that requires you to to discredit posters outside a certain proximity (what qualifies someone's perspective? same neighborhood, zip code, city, county, state?) and remind us that it has "Boulevard" in the name regardless. Either way I hope you'll elaborate.

What exactly gives you hope on the boulevard?

[Jim Kyle]

What exactly gives you hope on the boulevard?

I don't think he has "hope" for it (whatever "hope" might signify) -- rather, seems to me he's saying it'll be a boulevard if TPTB call it one, regardless of any dictionary definitions.

Sorta like calling Union City a city...

[Urbanized]

I took it to mean that regardless of whether it's well-done or poorly done, the street will clearly meet the technical definition of a boulevard, and putting quotation marks around the term doesn't change that fact.

A tiny house, a mobile home, a container home, a three bedroom ranch and a mansion are all still houses, and not made less so by saying they are "houses".

[kevinpate]

A boulevard is a boulevard is a boulevard.

Except maybe when it's a cafeteria.

[Spartan]

True, but I still think of boulevards and expressways as different things. Just as an expressway is something that isn't quite a freeway..

[bchris02]

I personally don't mind the boulevard being primarily a means of funneling suburbanites in and out of downtown with walkability taking a back seat. The reason being is doing so opens up a lot of potential on Reno and Sheridan as they will no longer serve as the high-traffic corridors for getting people in and out of Bricktown. As for ODOT, they are simply doing their job, which is to design a road that will move traffic as quickly and efficiently as possible. If the city wants something different, they will have to modify it after they take control.

[David]

If ODOT is building a road that the city will immediately spend more taxpayer dollars modifying, they're arguably not really doing their job, at least not correctly. They should be building what the client wants, not what they want.

[Urban Pioneer]

Let's be clear about something, this thing as conceived by ODOT isn't a Boulevard, it is a Highway Bypass.

The City however may indeed spend additional monies to make it "better". FBB just enabled making it "better" easier by getting rid of the elevated bridge decks and adding intersections... and possibly making it slightly smaller.

[Urban Pioneer]

UP, when you say tear it up to install streetcar tracks, is that for a track to go to the CC or a slight adjustment of the original line?

Either scenario. In the current plans we cross the new Boulevard on Hudson to go down to the maintenance facility. All plans being considered to modify the route to better serve the MAPS 3 Park and Convention Center involve impacting the Boulevard to a greater degree. Any and all scenarios involve tearing up new concrete as ODOT is dead set on letting contract the first or second quarter of next year.

The only good think about the Boulevard is that it is currently a utility free zone. So it it is only concrete and substrate that we will supposedly be tearing up.

[bradh]

Let's be clear about something, this thing as conceived by ODOT isn't a Boulevard, it is a Highway Bypass.

The City however may indeed spend additional monies to make it "better". FBB just enabled making it "better" easier by getting rid of the elevated bridge decks and adding intersections... and possibly making it slightly smaller.

How legit is that letter that is from the feds saying that what had to be put back in place was what we're getting now? I don't remember the exact letter, but Wegner had it on a powerpoint he presented a year or so ago to a meeting I was at.

[Urban Pioneer]

Basically, the only way this project would have been able to be more urban and pedestrian sensitivity is if the Federal Highway Administration administrators told ODOT that they wanted the project to adhere to the current administrations "Livability Principals". ODOT itself wasn't going to design and build a sensitive project. It culturally doesn't know how. The FHWA could have easily exerted more pressure. This project could easily be a example of their stated goals. However, I am not sure that those goals go beyond a press release. Culturally, the Washington arm of the FHWA doesn't seem any more educated than ODOT when it comes to urbanity and quality of life principals. So, the letter is "legit" in the sense that they will not ask for nor enable a different design. The project is a lock.

[LakeEffect]

Culturally, the Washington arm of the FHWA doesn't seem any more educated than ODOT when it comes to urbanity and quality of life principals.

I disagree.

Have you seen this? Press Release: FHWA Move to Encourage Highway Design Flexibilities Kicks Off with Changes for Lower Speed Roads, 10/7/2015 | Federal Highway Administration - in other words - Feds Propose Major Rule Changes to Eliminate Barriers to Safer Streets | Streetsblog USA

Or this? Bicycle and Pedestrian Facility Design Flexibility - Guidance - Bicycle and Pedestrian Program - Environment - FHWA

Or this? FHWA Officially Supports City-Friendly Street Designs - National Association of City Transportation Officials

The local/regional office, however, may be of the same culture as ODOT.

[LakeEffect]

double post

[Spartan]

I personally don't mind the boulevard being primarily a means of funneling suburbanites in and out of downtown with walkability taking a back seat. The reason being is doing so opens up a lot of potential on Reno and Sheridan as they will no longer serve as the high-traffic corridors for getting people in and out of Bricktown. As for ODOT, they are simply doing their job, which is to design a road that will move traffic as quickly and efficiently as possible. If the city wants something different, they will have to modify it after they take control.

No on so many counts. It's actually pretty unique for a state DOT to do this in downtown in 2015. They all did this 20-50 years ago but by now most of them have reformed. ODOT is the nation's most backwards DOT.

This boulevard is part of a Core 2 Shore visioning process that began ten years ago, before you even knew where OKC was. It was promised by the city to be "our Champs d'Elysses." We all knew it wouldn't be that great and that Mayor Mick was getting ahead of himself, but the seed was then planted to give us enough confidence in the future to approve MAPS 3. Back then we really had a vision for how this could all come together.

The city also could take this over, as ODOT is just acting as a turnkey project manager here. The city however never intended to have to pay for this. Oops.

As for Reno and Sheridan, one failure doesn't correct another. The truth is that we have a huge tradition of public works failure. It is what we do, harkening back to Paul Brum and "better than crappy makes us happy." There is a reason that Bricktown was never streetscaped. It could have been. It was also purposely left out of P180.

IMO it's a huge failure that the city has no interest in making pickup trucks have to drive through a real city on their way to Toby Keith's and Bass Pro. Somehow that's beyond the pale. There is a real mentality that it's only okay to put roundabouts and pedestrians in the way of Prius' (Prii?) coming from Mesta Park..."those people won't mind."

I can think of no other reason why one corner of downtown should be different than another.

[bchris02]

No on so many counts. It's actually pretty unique for a state DOT to do this in downtown in 2015. They all did this 20-50 years ago but by now most of them have reformed. ODOT is the nation's most backwards DOT.

This boulevard is part of a Core 2 Shore visioning process that began ten years ago, before you even knew where OKC was. It was promised by the city to be "our Champs d'Elysses." We all knew it wouldn't be that great and that Mayor Mick was getting ahead of himself, but the seed was then planted to give us enough confidence in the future to approve MAPS 3. Back then we really had a vision for how this could all come together.

The city also could take this over, as ODOT is just acting as a turnkey project manager here. The city however never intended to have to pay for this. Oops.

As for Reno and Sheridan, one failure doesn't correct another. The truth is that we have a huge tradition of public works failure. It is what we do, harkening back to Paul Brum and "better than crappy makes us happy." There is a reason that Bricktown was never streetscaped. It could have been. It was also purposely left out of P180.

IMO it's a huge failure that the city has no interest in making pickup trucks have to drive through a real city on their way to Toby Keith's and Bass Pro. Somehow that's beyond the pale. There is a real mentality that it's only okay to put roundabouts and pedestrians in the way of Prius' (Prii?) coming from Mesta Park..."those people won't mind."

I can think of no other reason why one corner of downtown should be different than another.

I definitely understand what you are saying. However, I don't see what could have been done to change it with the way ODOT currently operates. ODOT needs reform to get them out of the 1980s mentality.

I really hope once Business I-40 is complete that OKC will strongly look at narrowing and streetscaping Reno and Sheridan. Bricktown could be so much better with narrower streets, better streetscaping, and overall more focus placed on the pedestrian experience than the automobile.

[Urban Pioneer]

I disagree.

Have you seen this? Press Release: FHWA Move to Encourage Highway Design Flexibilities Kicks Off with Changes for Lower Speed Roads, 10/7/2015 | Federal Highway Administration - in other words - Feds Propose Major Rule Changes to Eliminate Barriers to Safer Streets | Streetsblog USA

Or this? Bicycle and Pedestrian Facility Design Flexibility - Guidance - Bicycle and Pedestrian Program - Environment - FHWA

Or this? FHWA Officially Supports City-Friendly Street Designs - National Association of City Transportation Officials

The local/regional office, however, may be of the same culture as ODOT.

LOL Cafe. That is exactly why I referenced the "press releases" in my earlier posts. Part of the FBB strategy was to also contact the Washington Administrators in tandem with the Regional Office. The requests for these specific "Livability Initiatives" to be directly incorporated were flatly ignored....

I think that is all they are, press releases with no backbone.

[Urbanized]

Let's be clear about something, this thing as conceived by ODOT isn't a Boulevard, it is a Highway Bypass.
...

Actually it quite clearly meets the definition of a boulevard; it's just a BAD boulevard (as executed by ODOT). The boulevard of broken dreams, if you will. Obviously at the ends it functions more like a limited access freeway, but once it is on the ground it is a boulevard as defined here:

Boulevard | Define Boulevard at Dictionary.com

boulevard
[boo l-uh-vahrd, boo-luh-]
noun

1. a broad avenue in a city, usually having areas at the sides or center for trees, grass, or flowers.

2. Also called boulevard strip. Upper Midwest. a strip of lawn between a sidewalk and the curb.

Word Origin and History for boulevard
n.
1769, from French boulevard (15c.), originally "top surface of a military rampart," from a garbled attempt to adopt Middle Dutch bolwerc "wall of a fortification" (see bulwark ) into French, which lacks a -w-. The notion is of a promenade laid out atop demolished city walls, a way which would be much wider than urban streets. Originally in English with conscious echoes of Paris; since 1929, in U.S., used of multi-lane limited-access urban highways. Early French attempts to digest the Dutch word also include boloart, boulever, boloirque, bollvercq.

[Urban Pioneer]

Obviously at the ends it functions more like a limited access freeway

I think we both agree despite the literal Wikipedia definition. I'll give Wikipedia the grass... we'll see about the flowers and trees.

[bradh]

Back to the street car....most installations I have seen have been on nice concrete streets, not the crap asphalt that is all over the city. Is that an issue and will lanes that hold tracks be redone as concrete?

[Urban Pioneer]

Yes. They will be embedded in a 8' wide reinforced concrete track bed. That will be in both concrete and asphalt streets. Also, the rails will be connected via continuous welds creating essentially one continuously connected and reinforced structure.