Oklahoma liquor laws

[bchris02]

The 3.2abw cap also directly affects our state's brewpubs (and lack of). It's no coincidence that the brewpubs in our state are unable to flourish with such a restrictive cap and likewise why there aren't any new brewpubs opening up in what would otherwise be considered a great place to open a brewpub.

This should be resolved if SB 424 passes, would it not?

[Rover]

A key difference here in OK is our laws are hindering our local businesses and breweries so much more than in other states. Additionally they are keeping outside breweries from distributing or even the potential for expanding brewery operations into our state.

The 3.2abw cap also directly affects our state's brewpubs (and lack of). It's no coincidence that the brewpubs in our state are unable to flourish with such a restrictive cap and likewise why there aren't any new brewpubs opening up in what would otherwise be considered a great place to open a brewpub.

Ours isn't even close to the most stupid. In Florida the brewers have to sell their product to wholesalers and then buy it back in order to sell it themselves.

Texas: No one is permitted to consume more than three sips of beer at a time while standing.

Utah: Wine used in wine tastings must not be swallowed.

Pennsylvania: The law states that a man may not buy alcohol without written permission from his wife.

Ohio: The wine brand “Fat Bastard” is banned for sale within OH borders, to “protect impressionable children”.

New Mexico: Selling, serving, or giving alcohol to a minor is a Class 4 felony and punishable by up to 18 months in prison.

New Hampshire: It is illegal to be served alcohol unless you are sitting down.

Kentucky: It is illegal to ship alcohol to Kentucky, even if it’s just a bottle of wine for your mother, unless you want to be charged with a felony and go to jail for the next five years

Indiana: It is illegal for liquor stores to sell milk and cold soft drinks. However, they are allowed to sell soft drinks at room temperature.

Iowa: It is illegal to start a tab at a bar in Iowa.

California: It is illegal to sell alcohol beverages within 5 feet of a cash register in a store that sells both alcohol and motor fuel.

There are plenty of other screwed up liquor laws all over the US.

[bille]

This should be resolved if SB 424 passes, would it not?

No, not the way I understand it. 424 will allow for direct sales but those sales are not for on premise consumption.

[bille]

Ours isn't even close to the most stupid. In Florida the brewers have to sell their product to wholesalers and then buy it back in order to sell it themselves.

There are plenty of other screwed up liquor laws all over the US.

I won't bother discussing those other laws because they are silly laws which all states have that were passed forever ago and for the most part aren't enforced. That said, the first one from Florida, yeah, we'd have to do that too. In fact if you've ever been to Roughtail's tap room that's exactly what they have to do. I believe it's the same for Choc. In fact, if any of our state's brewpubs brewed beer >3.2abw they'd also have to go through a distributor first before being able to sell on premise.

edit: and fwiw, Florida breweries are currently allowed to have taprooms were they can sell direct ALL of their products. It's some kind of tourist exemption that they are fighting to get turned into an actual law (big breweries <bud> would rather the craft breweries not be able to do this as they own a lot of distributors and direct sales hurt them in many ways). Regardless it's currently legal for Florida breweries to sell direct to consumers via tap rooms and it has been for quite some time. Here in OK, brewery taprooms can only sell beer that's 3.2abw or less. In the case of Roughtail and Choc, their taprooms (or restaurant) is a separate business from the brewery.

[bchris02]

There are screwed up laws all across the US, but the only two states that come close to rivaling OK in terms of direct impact on the consumer are Utah and Pennsylvania.

Alabama and Mississippi had horrible laws until the late '00s but they modernized recently.

[jerrywall]

No, not the way I understand it. 424 will allow for direct sales but those sales are not for on premise consumption.

The one thing I will say about 424, is if I was still a retailer I would drop any beer from my shelves that was being sold direct as well. Why support a direct competitor?

[adaniel]

My guess is that Rover is understandably chapped that certain posters continue to shove their agenda on this (and several other) threads.

With that in mind, this is all very informative. Thank you for the update bille.

[BDP]

The one thing I will say about 424, is if I was still a retailer I would drop any beer from my shelves that was being sold direct as well. Why support a direct competitor?

I think as long as they don't undercut retailers, I don't think it will hurt them that much. The reality is that what you're describing is what every small retailer faces today.

[bille]

The one thing I will say about 424, is if I was still a retailer I would drop any beer from my shelves that was being sold direct as well. Why support a direct competitor?

For small batch brewery only releases this is the best option, especially since distro laws here require all distributors to get a fair shake at the product and that makes it to where everybody is dividing up a such a small release it turns into just a nightmare for distributors and many retailers alike. Besides it makes zero sense to be able to tour a brewery, sample their beers yet not be able to buy a beer or growler to take with them. Breweries aren't going to forgo the distributors and retailers for the large production stuff, no brewery has the time/desire/ability to self distribute.

[jerrywall]

I think as long as they don't undercut retailers, I don't think it will hurt them that much. The reality is that what you're describing is what every small retailer faces today.

I what way? A small retailer isn't supporting their competitors by selling their products. (Edit: On rethinking, I'm guessing you're referring to other industries.)

It's less about being hurt. There isn't a liquor retailer in the state with the exception of a very, very, very small few that can carry every product. There just isn't room. We had a fairly large shop and we had to make choices on what to carry. And there isn't a single liquor product that's irreplaceable from a retail/sales perspective. Retailers choose which products to carry, merchandise, stock, and promote. If I'm a retailer, and one of my suppliers decides to sell direct to consumers (even at the same price point), why should I invest my money and space into their product, when I can use those resources towards someone else?

Personally, I'm all for 424, but I do hope the local breweries keep in mind the only reason they've been able to exist and make any money. Package retail sales and bar sales. Period. Because those are the only sales avenues at the moment. Any success they've experienced is due to bars and liquor stores taking chances, and putting money into non-returnable purchases of their products. Switching into direct sales and brew pubs transitions these breweries from suppliers to direct competitors. I've seen this happen in other industries. It's a different animal for everyone involved. At the minimum, it will make many retailers less willing to take chances on new beers from local breweries.

[jerrywall]

For small batch brewery only releases this is the best option, especially since distro laws here require all distributors to get a fair shake at the product and that makes it to where everybody is dividing up a such a small release it turns into just a nightmare for distributors and many retailers alike. Besides it makes zero sense to be able to tour a brewery, sample their beers yet not be able to buy a beer or growler to take with them. Breweries aren't going to forgo the distributors and retailers for the large production stuff, no brewery has the time/desire/ability to self distribute.

And I'm all fine with that. It doesn't change the fact that it's still turning a supplier into a competitor. Growlers are a little different. And the idea that the breweries intend to offer special brewery only products is a little concerning.

[Jersey Boss]

I was told by one of the beer guys at BYRONS that there is a 45 day embargo on sales to retailers after the beer hits the distributor. If the brewery were to be able to sell directly, this would be unfair competition for the retailer as their product would not be as fresh.

[BDP]

If I'm a retailer, and one of my suppliers decides to sell direct to consumers (even at the same price point), why should I invest my money and space into their product, when I can use those resources towards someone else?

That would certainly be up to you, but many retailers have to make this decision every day and, honestly, if every small retailer stopped selling products that are available from the manufacturers and brands directly, then many would have to change their business model entirely and stop selling many major brands. Honestly, I think it's crappy that so many brands have done that to their retailers, but most retailers are not protected by similar regulations that protect liquor retailers from increased competition in Oklahoma.

[BDP]

I was told by one of the beer guys at BYRONS that there is a 45 day embargo on sales to retailers after the beer hits the distributor. If the brewery were to be able to sell directly, this would be unfair competition for the retailer as their product would not be as fresh.

That sounds like a dumb law regardless of the impact on competition.

[bille]

I was told by one of the beer guys at BYRONS that there is a 45 day embargo on sales to retailers after the beer hits the distributor. If the brewery were to be able to sell directly, this would be unfair competition for the retailer as their product would not be as fresh.

That's not true. The 45 days is a requirement that the breweries must give distributors an intent to sell on an upcoming release. The beer doesn't set for 45 days and in many cases probably hasn't been packaged or even brewed when that 45 days is given. Believe me, unless a brewery is purposely aging a beer they don't want it sitting around the brewery taking up space in the warehouse, walk-in, or conditioning tanks.

[bradh]

Why can't we do what guys like No Label in my hometown of Katy, TX and St. Arnold's in Houston are able to do, charge a cover, hand out tokens for samples, and have brewery "tours" for 3 hours on Saturdays? I think it's even expanded now, doesn't seem to have hurt either the brewers or the liqour stores down there.

[bchris02]

My guess is that Rover is understandably chapped that certain posters continue to shove their agenda on this (and several other) threads.

There isn't any narrative or agenda. The liquor laws in Oklahoma are archaic and among the most restrictive in the nation on the consumer. Only Utah and arguably Pennsylvania are more restrictive. The state is largely missing out on the brewpub explosion happening in other states because of these laws. Pointing out stupid laws in other states doesn't change that fact.

[adaniel]

Spare me. Yes it is an agenda. Do you think posters on here are stupid? I hate that we cannot have an honest conversation on here regarding anything without you chiming in reminding everyone what a ****hole this place is and what it is "lacking" and how it was better in Charlotte blah blah blah and contributing nothing.

Furthermore you do realize people here post on other social media outlets? You have registered on MULTIPLE forums under other names saying offensive and nasty things about what you think of people here. Its seriously not that hard to figure out who it is. Just ridiculous, I wish you would just move already, for your own sake.

/rant

[jerrywall]

Why can't we do what guys like No Label in my hometown of Katy, TX and St. Arnold's in Houston are able to do, charge a cover, hand out tokens for samples, and have brewery "tours" for 3 hours on Saturdays? I think it's even expanded now, doesn't seem to have hurt either the brewers or the liqour stores down there.

We do brewery tours and samples now.

[bradh]

We do brewery tours and samples now.

Really? How are they set up? I wasn't under the impression it's the same as down in Texas. Down there you can pay $5 and get tokens and a sample glass. If you buy a pint glass or bring one you've already bought from the brewery, you can get a pint instead of a small sample. These usually last 2-3 hours with live music and food trucks, they are great events that happen weekly. If these are happening in OKC weekly then I'm either not paying attention or it's not the same scale.

[bille]

We do brewery tours and samples now.

Yeah but at a significant cost to the breweries. They can charge for the tour and/or a tasting glass but that's about it. Usually any cost associated with a tour would cover the expense of the souvenir glass only. They can only give out 12oz worth of samples and of course they can't charge for those. Here is the time I'd typically go on a rant about what the wineries are allowed to do but you've heard that rant before.

[jerrywall]

Yeah but at a significant cost to the breweries.

If giving out an equivalent of one free beer to someone is a significant cost to the brewery, they should have a lot more sympathy for retailer concerns.

[bradh]

Yeah but at a significant cost to the breweries. They can charge for the tour and/or a tasting glass but that's about it. Usually any cost associated with a tour would cover the expense of the souvenir glass only. They can only give out 12oz worth of samples and of course they can't charge for those. Here is the time I'd typically go on a rant about what the wineries are allowed to do but you've heard that rant before.

So how do you suggest the sampling tours are done? If No Label in TX is charging $5 a head and giving out 4 tokens per person, and they pull say 500 or more people in there on a Saturday afternoon, is that not something that we should hope our brewers could do here? Oh and you can bring your kids/dogs/whatever to these events.

[jerrywall]

So how do you suggest the sampling tours are done? If No Label in TX is charging $5 a head and giving out 4 tokens per person, and they pull say 500 or more people in there on a Saturday afternoon, is that not something that we should hope our brewers could do here? Oh and you can bring your kids/dogs/whatever to these events.

I watch for deals like this...

Brewery Tasting Tour and Drinks - Roughtail Brewing Company | Groupon

[bille]

If giving out an equivalent of one free beer to someone is a significant cost to the brewery, they should have a lot more sympathy for retailer concerns.

Perhaps loss on potential earned income would have been a better way to put it? Either way it adds up if you factor giving away that much over time. Additionally you have to pay staff to come work on Saturdays/Sundays (or do it yourself) on days you'd otherwise be brewing (not while tours are going on) or you'd be off work, all to give product away. At best you're bringing in a little income with merchandise sales. My point is, if it was such a great thing for breweries they'd all have open taprooms all weekend, every weekend. As you're surely aware that's not the case at all.